Comment author: shokwave 11 December 2010 05:08:50PM 0 points [-]

How does that square with interpretations being right or wrong? Is that not possible?

In response to comment by shokwave on A sense of logic
Comment author: ugquestions 12 December 2010 03:06:15AM 0 points [-]

Questions of right and wrong are an entirely different arguement. In this case it is not a question of the idea being right or wrong. Its the beleif in the idea while ommiting the obvious flaws. I wouldn't try to argue that anyone writing on this site would use this idea in this way.

What do you think of "gods love is unconditional". No-one seems to have commented on this.

Comment author: marchdown 11 December 2010 04:25:42PM 5 points [-]

What is wrong with your example sentences? They are not arguments, there is no logic to be flawed. Sure, they can be interpreted to refer to factually wrong conjectures, namely that all men at some early point in their live are literally identical and that there is a god with associated bunch of problematic properties.

But this is not necessarily or even often so. For one, these sentences easily lend themselves to non-problematic interpretations: (1) says that all men are similar in significant ways, or that the commonalities are more important than differences, or that they start with the same machinery and may or may not develop it in different ways; while (2) simply means that life and human condition is good and death and non-existence is bad.

Finally, you've got to look at how these are actually used in speech. I'm beginning to see your point here, these sentences are often used as universal rebuttals, or refer to some vague moral maxims which are hard to argue against, they fulfill several patterns, trapping thought and leaving impression of closure where there is none. Is this why you react to them so badly? Do they simply trigger facepalm response without you actually struggling against bad logic?

In response to comment by marchdown on A sense of logic
Comment author: ugquestions 12 December 2010 02:57:27AM 0 points [-]

It is in the use of an idea that the facepalm response occurs. Argueing for the concept of meritocracy for example by using the idea all men are created equal. I believe many feel people fail or succeed based on their efforts without consideration for other factors such as those outlined above and probably the most impotant factor LUCK.

In response to comment by Airedale on A sense of logic
Comment author: shokwave 11 December 2010 05:04:58PM 2 points [-]

The problem is that it's wrong. All men are not created / did not come into existence equal. Intelligence, genetic risk factors for disease, appearance, etc are all examples of inequalities in the creation or existence of man. It is clear from the text that 'equal' means more than 'equally endowed with unalienable rights'. There are interpretations that are more correct, sure, but these interpretations aren't the natural interpretation of that piece of text, and it's perfectly reasonable to kinesthetically react to that natural interpretation.

In response to comment by shokwave on A sense of logic
Comment author: ugquestions 12 December 2010 02:46:20AM 1 point [-]

Thank you, my thoughts exactly.

In response to A sense of logic
Comment author: teageegeepea 11 December 2010 09:10:01AM 1 point [-]

I don't know if I agree with his assessment, but I immediately thought back to David Stove's "worst argument in the world" aka "The Gem".

Comment author: ugquestions 11 December 2010 01:58:10PM 0 points [-]

Is it the worst argument in the world because it cannot be refuted or argued against? Maybe the one-sided argument is the way we define a bad argument.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 11 December 2010 01:32:25PM 4 points [-]

I think the first one is politically useful if it's interpreted as something like "no one is automatically dispensable".

Comment author: ugquestions 11 December 2010 01:35:26PM 0 points [-]

"Interpretation" creates/is rationality or logic.

In response to A sense of logic
Comment author: ugquestions 11 December 2010 01:11:47PM 2 points [-]

"All men are created equal"

"God's love is unconditional"

I feel the pain in my head. I think its because I genuinely want to understand why they truly believe what they are saying while not seeing the clear contradictions, but try as I might I just cannot. I have found that I feel the same way when a contradiction betweeen a belief and action within myself occurs. For example I believe nothing really matters, but every decision and action I take obviously contradicts this belief.

The pain has a name. Confusion. With awareness that such ideas impact the world and yourself it combines with sadness, pity, anger, frustration or a combination of all of them. Maybe this is the pain you feel in the stomach. Zen uses koans to take confusion to a heighten level in order to show an individual that all thought is equally confused depending on your perspective. The truth is there is nothing solid or certain just a feeling (that is created/invented) that there is. Belief, thought, action, feeling have little to do with reality. People have a limitless ability to rationalize just about anything and make the most absurd ideas true for themselves. The corners you feel are all pinned down are coners you or people collectively have created for yourself. Different corners, different conclusions, different logic. How you react to ideas, whether fast or not, is based upon the corners your logic uses (and so is in a sense kinethetic) and how they are set up over a lifetime is as individual as fingerprints.

Comment author: wnoise 09 December 2010 09:27:34AM 3 points [-]

Huh? You're going to have to explain how increasing the tax (on the wealthy) would lead to increased product prices. They might try to recoup their losses. (Or they might decide it's not worth working as hard for less reward -- this is the usual assumption in Economics) But what's the mechanism that leads from that to raised prices? There is an optimal price to set to maximize profit. Raising prices past that point isn't going to increase profits, because the volume sold will be lower.

Comment author: ugquestions 09 December 2010 11:14:06PM 1 point [-]

I guess I was thinking of necessities like food, water, electricity, medicine etc which the lack of is causinG the preventable premature deaths . Passing the costs of production on to consumers (including increases in tax) in order to maintain or grow profit margins is at the heart of our economic reality.

'Not worth working as hard for less reward" is the reason for the lottery for the top 10% of earners. Most of these kind of individuals would have the belief that this would be a lottery they would not win and therefore continue to work as they would. An increase for all the top 10% (tax) would only modify their behaviour and at least some proportion of the cost would enievitably be passed on to all consumers.

Comment author: cata 09 December 2010 07:34:50AM *  1 point [-]

This is just too complicated a scenario to boil down to such a simple question. The efficacy of that kind of redistribution would depend on all sorts of other properties of the economy and of society. I can imagine cultures in which that would work well, and others in which it would trigger a bloodbath. I don't think it's meaningful to ask whether someone would support it "in general."

Comment author: ugquestions 09 December 2010 07:53:26AM 0 points [-]

I was aware of the many possible negative consequences such an action could have ( and the impossiblity of it ever having a chance of happening) however if there was a majority support across a society above 75% would the basic idea of sacrificing a small number of people to a modest lifestyle in order to save a large number of people be something you could support. Would a bloodbath be triggered with such support. I pose the question and think its a meaninful question because it is in a "general" sense a decision societies and civilization as a whole ( and by extension all individuals) are making every day.

I spend $70 a month on entertainment. If I redirect this money I could save 7 people a month from a preventable premature death. We all make these decisions. If the question was a choice between throwing the fat person in front of the trolley of yourself in order to save people which would you prefer.

Also remember it is the "fat person" or wealthy that propels the trolley into these people to varying degrees.

Comment author: Elizabeth 09 December 2010 06:37:03AM 3 points [-]

There is a major flaw in your proposal: the bottom 40% would not be in favor. Some of them would be, but there is a demonstrable bias which causes people to be irrationally optimistic about their own future wealth. This bias is a major factor in the Republicans maintaining much of their base, among other things.

However, to answer your question, while I would not favor your proposal, I would favor a tax on all of that top ten percent which would garner the same revenue as your proposal.

Comment author: ugquestions 09 December 2010 07:41:46AM -1 points [-]

an increase in tax would only create an increase in product prices as the wealthy try to recoup their losses. This would adversely affect the very people you would be trying to help. The middle class whose support you wold require would also be affected negarive and the proposal would be then over turned.

Increasing taxes would not work.

Comment author: ugquestions 08 December 2010 06:12:11AM 3 points [-]

The top 10% of humanity accumulates 30% of the worlds wealth. 20% of the humanity dies from preventable, premature death (and suffers horribly)

The proposition...

10% of the top 10% had all their wealth taken from them (lottery selection process) They are forced to work as hard and effectively as they had previously and were given only enough of the profits they produce to live modestly. They lose everything and work for 5 years and recieve 10% of original wealth back The next 10% of the top 10 % is selected The wealth taken is used to ensure the survival of the 20% dying from preventable premature death.

In this scenario 1% of people are forced to live modestly in order to save up to 20% of humanity. No-one need to kill or be killed.

It would probably be reasonable to say the top 20% of earners would be against this proposal. The majority of the bottom 40% would be in favour. If your reading this you are likely on of the other 40% of humankind who can choose to support or reject the proposal. What would you say?

I am aware there are many holes in the proposition (unintended consequences etc) however this is a hypothetical that is based on a real situation that exists now that we are all contributing to in one way or another.

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