Comment author: [deleted] 10 November 2012 06:46:32PM *  2 points [-]

Well Eliezer was found of italicizing words in his text, doesn't provide references for most of his statements and wrote quit a few walls of text. I mean the sequences are huge.

In response to comment by [deleted] on Detecting Web baloney with your nose?
Comment author: uzalud 10 November 2012 07:23:13PM *  4 points [-]

I wouldn't call Eliezer's emphasis excessive, nor would I call the sequences "walls of text". This is an example of both: http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/img/yj5053f092.png

My question is: if you didn't know any English, could you still infer that this is more likely to be baloney, or not?

Detecting Web baloney with your nose?

-3 uzalud 10 November 2012 03:50PM

Is there a useful heuristic for detecting rationally-challenged texts (as in Web pages, forum posts, facebook comments) which takes relatively superficial attributes such as formatting choices, spelling errors, etc. as input? Something a casual Internet reader may use to detect possibly unworthy content so they can suspend their belief and research the matter further. Let's call them "text smells" (analogue to code smells), like:

  1. too much emphasis in text (ALL CAPS, bold, color, exclamations, etc.);
  2. walls of text;
  3. little concrete data/links/references;
  4. too much irrelevant data and references;
  5. poor spelling and grammar;
  6. obvious half-truths and misinformation.

Since many crackpots, pseudoscientific con artists, and conspiracy theorists seem to have cleaned up their Web sites in recent years, I wonder do these low-cost baloney detection tools might be of real value. Does anyone know of any studies or analyses of correlation between these basic metrics and the actual quality of the content? Can you think of some other smells typical of Web baloney?

 

Comment author: TheOtherDave 31 December 2011 09:18:16PM 3 points [-]

I don't think it requires a separate explanation.

Suppose I have a belief that I arrived at via some process other than evaluating evidence. Suppose further that I find that belief satisfying in some way... I prefer believing it to not-believing it.

If I suspect that evaluating available evidence will weaken my belief, that gives me a reason to avoid evaluating that evidence.

Having decided to avoid evaluating that evidence, I have incentive to believe that the evidence is worthless.

Comment author: uzalud 31 December 2011 10:26:31PM 0 points [-]

Yes, people are not motivated to look for knowledge that doesn't promise to support their existing point of view. But does that explain the pride in not knowing?

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 31 December 2011 07:12:03PM 5 points [-]

Because the outside view frequently gives better predictions than the inside view. For example as Manfred recently noted in a different thread, Mike Darwin's predictions were

[m]uch more accurate outside of his specialty.

Comment author: uzalud 31 December 2011 07:28:23PM 0 points [-]

Yes, but does this explain the pride? Also, the planning fallacy is more about optimism than knowledge per se.

Although, I think this has connections with "seeing the Big Picture" (the Big Geographer, as Thomas said). "You may know some unimportant details, but I have a better view of the Big Picture, so I'm superior to you."

Why some people seem to be proud of their ignorance?

14 uzalud 31 December 2011 01:38PM

Sometimes I run into people that have rather strong opinions on some topic, and it turns out that they are basing them on quite shallow and biased information. They are aware that their knowledge is quite limited compared to mine, and they admit that they don't want to put in the effort needed to learn enough to level the field.

But that's not really a problem. What is bothering me is that, sometimes, that declaration of ignorance is expressed with some kind of pride

This behaviour is noticeable on other levels too, in politics or in the sciences-humanities culture clash.

I came up with several hypotheses which might account for this:

  1. Being opinionated on a topic you know little about is a sign of confidence and bravery. Any fool can play it safe and carefully form opinions based on solid knowledge, but it takes a real man to do it quickly and decidedly, with only partial information.
  2. Knowing something is an identity badge. In-depth knowledge of science, or computers, or any number of other fields is a sign that you are a geek. People are proud of not being geeks, or are a proud member of some other group that does not care for that particular knowledge.
  3. Knowledge is relative and/or unimportant. Not caring about concrete knowledge is a sign of post-modernist sophistication, or an avant-garde, non-mainstream thinking, which is something to be proud of.
  4. Displaying pride overcompensates for shame one normally feels when forced to acknowledge one's ignorance.

Do you notice this behaviour too? What do you think causes it?

EDIT: formatting, style, grammar

Comment author: CharlieSheen 28 December 2011 07:00:37PM *  8 points [-]

Religious and other dogmas need not make sense. Indeed, they may work better if they are not logical. Logical and useful ideas pop-up independently and spread easily, and widely accepted ideas are not very good badges. You need a unique idea to identify your group. It helps to have a somewhat costly idea as a dogma, because they are hard to fake and hard to deny. People would need to invest in these bad ideas, so they would be less likely to leave the group and confront the sunk cost. Also, it's harder to deny allegiance to the group afterwards, because no one in their right minds would accept an idea that bad for any other reason.

If you have a naive interpretation of the dogma, which regards it as an objective statement about the world, you will tend to question it. When you’re contesting the dogma, people won’t judge your argument on its merits: they will look at it as an in-group power struggle. Either you want to install your own dogma, which makes you a pretender, or you’re accepted a competing dogma, which makes you a traitor. Even if they accept that you just don’t want to yield to the authority behind the dogma, that makes you a rebel. Dogmas are just off-limits to criticism.

Public display of dismissive attitude to your questioning is also important. Taking it into consideration is in itself a form of treason, as it is interpreted as entertaining the option of joining you against the authority. So it’s best to dismiss the heresy quickly and loudly, without thinking about it.

My heretical by LW standards/scary/worst possible world idea on this is that society needs such dogma. It needs it badly, because coordination is hard. Weak evidence in this direction is that no society ever seems to have existed without it.

That's not the scary part. The scary part is that screwy metaphysical entities like say a God here or there or Reincarnation may in fact impose lower costs on a society than a dogmatic adherence to a particular interpretation of say "justice" or "fatherland" or "the dictatorship of the proletariat".

It would seriously suck to live in that world.

Fortunately, being a rock star from Mars, I live in the world of happy dust and goddesses.

Comment author: uzalud 28 December 2011 10:23:27PM 6 points [-]

Somehow I feel compelled to bring up my childhood in Yugoslavia.

Bosniaks, Croats and Serbs there look the same and speak very similar languages. Religion is one exception: I have yet to meet a Muslim Serb or an Orthodox Croatian. Unsurprisingly for a socialist regime, people were not very religious back then; but when the nationalism grew in 1990, so did the religious affiliations. Religion was a very practical means of national identity.

BUT, these affiliations were not expressed through dogmatic/theological differences. It was more about symbols, culture and stereotypes. So, we transitioned from a society who based its identity on one political-economic dogmatism to another that based its identity on symbols, cultural details and history.

Comment author: wedrifid 28 December 2011 08:50:36PM *  0 points [-]

But the probability that a true random generator will output 0000000000 should be the same as the probability that it will output 0010111101, because all sequences of equal length are equally likely.

With a fair random generator:

p(0000000000) = 1/2^10
p(1000000000) = 1/2^10
p(0100000000) = 1/2^10
p(0010000000) = 1/2^10

The numbers produced are independent of each other and for our purposes we don't care about the order. The relevant thing is how likely it is is to produce a given total number of zeroes or ones.

p(just one 1) = 10/2^10; A whole heap more likely!

So the chance that the generator is fair is rather slim. You can calculate just how slim by simply applying bayes rule (and doing some integration).

On a related note if you role two six sided dice you are just as likely to get two sixes as you are to get a three and a five. But if you are playing Settlers of Catan and put all your settlements next to the twelve instead of the eight then you are probably going to lose.

Comment author: uzalud 28 December 2011 09:23:00PM 0 points [-]

Hm. So the only relevant measure is the prevalence of zeros, because the generators are stateless (n+1st digit does not depend on the nth digit)?

But what if the generator B was not necessarily stateless?

Comment author: Cthulhoo 28 December 2011 02:36:45PM *  2 points [-]

I see a possible confusion in your post, in the sense that you have apparently fused two hypothesis into one: *A is random *A is fair

The two are not equivalent: A can be a random generator with p(0)!=50% or it can have p(0)=50% but output a very predictable string, e.g. 01010101010101010101...

Going back to your example if you hypothesis is A=(random et fair) then seeing the string 0000000000 can lower your belief in the statement (not for the "random" part, but for the "fair" part"). If your hypothesis was A=(random et p(0)= 0.00000000000000001%) then the string could raise your belief instead.

Comment author: uzalud 28 December 2011 06:14:24PM 0 points [-]

Yes, I misspoke. The question is to discern between fair and biased random generators, not between random and non-random ones. As benelliott pointed out, stateless random bit generators seem to have quite unequal probability distributions of output sequences.

Comment author: benelliott 28 December 2011 02:29:40PM 19 points [-]

The biased random generator is also just as likely to output 0000000000 as it is 0010111101.

This is the mistake.

If you actually do the maths the biased generator is significantly more likely to output 0000000000 than 0010111101.

For a much simpler example, suppose we run on two times. The random generator outputs 00 25% of the time, 01 25% of the time, 10 25% of the time and 11 25% of the time.

For the biased generator, we need calculus. First suppose its p(0) = x. Then p(00 | p(0) = x ) = x^2. Since we have what is essentially a uniform distribution over [0,1] (the presence of absence of a single point makes no difference) we need to integrate f(x) = x^2 over the interval [0,1], which gives and answer of p(00) = 1/3. The same method gives p(11) = 1/3 and p(01) = p(10) = 1/6.

The general rule, is that if we run it n times, for any k between 0 and n the chance of it outputting k 1s is 1/(n+1), and that probability is shared out evenly among all possible different ways of outputing k 1s (also derivable from calculus). Thus p(0000000000) = 9.1% while p(0010111101) = 0.043%.

Comment author: uzalud 28 December 2011 04:14:21PM 1 point [-]

Thanks, this is a great answer. It didn't occur to me that stateless generator with unknown p(0) will have such a "preference" for all-digits-are-same-sequences. p(ten zeros) = 1/11 if p(0) can be any number; but p(ten zeros)=1/1024 if p(0)=1/2.

Can you recognize a random generator?

2 uzalud 28 December 2011 01:59PM

I can't seem to get my head around a simple issue of judging probability. Perhaps someone here can point to an obvious flaw in my thinking.

Let's say we have a binary generator, a machine that outputs a required sequence of ones and zeros according to some internally encapsulated rule (deterministic or probabilistic). All binary generators look alike and you can only infer (a probability of) a rule by looking at its output.

You have two binary generators: A and B. One of these is a true random generator (fair coin tosser). The other one is a biased random generator: stateless (each digit is independently calculated from those given before), with probability of outputting zero p(0) somewhere between zero and one, but NOT 0.5 - let's say it's uniformly distributed in the range [0; .5) U (.5; 1]. At this point, chances that A is a true random generator are 50%.

Now you read the output of first ten digits generated by these machines. Machine A outputs 0000000000. Machine B outputs 0010111101. Knowing this, is the probability of machine A being a true random generator now less than 50%?

My intuition says yes.

But the probability that a true random generator will output 0000000000 should be the same as the probability that it will output 0010111101, because all sequences of equal length are equally likely. The biased random generator is also just as likely to output 0000000000 as it is 0010111101.

So there seems to be no reason to think that a machine outputting a sequence of zeros of any size is any more likely to be a biased stateless random generator than it is to be a true random generator.

I know that you can never know that the generator is truly random. But surely you can statistically discern between random and non-random generators?

View more: Next