Comment author: woodchuck64 10 May 2012 08:37:32PM -1 points [-]

I strongly suspect the rationality of the internet would improve many orders of magnitude if all arguments about arguments were quietly deleted.

Comment author: woodchuck64 10 May 2012 08:46:35PM *  0 points [-]

Okay, make that: I strongly suspect the rationality of the rational internet would improve many orders of magnitude if all arguments about arguments were quietly deleted

Comment author: MarkusRamikin 10 May 2012 08:02:54PM *  4 points [-]

However, my experience with SI is that when I tried to raise these concerns back in 2005/2006 I was subjected to a series of attacks that culminated in a tirade of slanderous denunciations from the founder of SI, Eliezer Yudkowsky.

I am frequently subjected to abusive personal attacks in which reference is made to Yudkowsky's earlier outburst

Link to the juicy details cough I mean evidence?

Comment author: woodchuck64 10 May 2012 08:37:32PM -1 points [-]

I strongly suspect the rationality of the internet would improve many orders of magnitude if all arguments about arguments were quietly deleted.

Comment author: Multiheaded 26 April 2012 01:32:50PM *  4 points [-]

I'm definitely a "liberal" (among other things), but I'm by no means excluding group values and group interests from my ethics. I see the question of individual rights vs group-ism, cooperation, etc as a 90% false dichotomy of the worst and most damaging kind. Liberals are silly and near-sighted enough for letting this shit go on, but hard-line conservatives are arguably even worse (and more guilty) for stirring up the hostility and moving the focus from entirely solvable, compromise-accepting practical issues (e.g. abortion) to some metaphysical conflict of responsibility vs selfishness.

I do not deny the essentially adversarial nature of differing values' and attitudes' interaction in society, but it doesn't mean we should escalate the inevitable debate to an all-out war.

(Sorry for blatant meta-politics, but I'm trying to call out mind-killing here, not increase it.)

Comment author: woodchuck64 26 April 2012 07:45:44PM *  0 points [-]

The dichotomies are always rationally solvable, but we are hardwired to loathe compromise on moral issues.

I think it is possible to interpret my comment is saying something bad about conservatives and good about liberals. However, what I wanted, rather, was to make the point that we (as liberals or liberal rationalists) need to think about taking group binding moral foundations as seriously as conservatives do, because if we dismiss them as outdated evolutionary vestige, that will definitely not solve social and political polarization (which in the US, at least, is at record levels).

What "taking seriously" should mean I'm not completely sure. But I think it starts at understanding and using what is known to work while attempting to avoid the known pitfalls (much like the OP suggests). And as this comment thread demonstrates, that seems to be a bit of a tightrope.

Comment author: Dorikka 24 April 2012 02:20:53AM 6 points [-]

Thus, this has never been a disagreement over facts at all, but rather, a moral loathing of our very kind.

This sounds unnecessarily hyperbolic. On what grounds do you claim that this difference causes 'loathing' often enough for it to be termed generally as such?

Comment author: woodchuck64 24 April 2012 07:51:22PM 3 points [-]

I think the dislike is visceral, coming from the same place that makes incest feel icky. Haidt's research seems to show people feel moral conclusions first, then rationalize them. I think it possible that a fairly large percentage of conservatives experience an intense visceral disgust for any blatant disregard of group binding moral foundations.

But my conclusion from that is not that conservatives should be vilified; just that we need to understand that the issue of group --vs- individual moral emphasis is a lot more than just a friendly disagreement over facts. The OP is making the point that we need to take group-binding dynamics seriously, both in understanding and using them to our advantage.

Comment author: SkyDK 23 April 2012 05:35:55PM 25 points [-]

I disagree. Techniques for spreading rationality are highly rational to learn. Considering subjects such as Why Our Kind Can't Cooperate I dare say that it's almost essential for the project of disseminating rationality that LessWrong as a group learns how group dynamics work and how successful communities are built. If we consider being rational a good thing then we ought to make it as attractive as possible to feel as part of the rationalist group.

Comment author: woodchuck64 23 April 2012 07:53:41PM *  5 points [-]

Strong agreement with your disagreement. I just finished Haidt's The Righteous Mind and observe that rationalists seem to gravitate towards a liberal, individualistic moral foundation, while the rest seem to automatically balance that with, or favor, group binding moral foundations. Thus, we rationalists (and liberals in general) are seen as immoral because of our tendency to disregard others' crucial moral foundations of ingroup/loyalty, authority/respect, purity/sanctity. Thus, this has never been a disagreement over facts at all, but rather, a moral loathing of our very kind.

In response to How to Be Happy
Comment author: Nurielle 10 April 2012 02:05:35PM 3 points [-]

I'm sure that major life circumstances (external events) greatly affect happiness levels - divorce, death of a loved one, major illness, losing one's job or home. People adapt but it could take years to return to previous levels of happiness, if ever (Lucas).

I got to this blog because I thought that by delving into research on happiness, I would find a way back to happiness; it's been five years since I lost it. What I've learned is that the authentic happiness I felt while married and raising a family - now replaced by singledom and an empty nest - will take great effort to achieve through activities that offer temporary relief and only a semblance of the real thing. Including exercising. While I was happy, I didn't need to question it, I simply felt it. I wonder why the loss of happiness feels like a major internal organ is gone, leaving a huge empty space inside? I suppose we need to remember that grief is also part of life, not only happiness.

Thanks for this blog, it's been helpful.

In response to comment by Nurielle on How to Be Happy
Comment author: woodchuck64 18 April 2012 11:39:45PM 5 points [-]

What I've learned is that the authentic happiness I felt while married and raising a family - now replaced by singledom and an empty nest - will take great effort to achieve through activities that offer temporary relief and only a semblance of the real thing.

I wonder why the loss of happiness feels like a major internal organ is gone, leaving a huge empty space inside?

This sounds like serious depression to me, not just reduced happiness; you might consider method 1 first. Sympathies and best wishes.

In response to comment by MaoShan on Brain Preservation
Comment author: nshepperd 02 April 2012 04:12:28AM 1 point [-]

Assuming that you have programmed it to care about its own consciousness, not just to ponder it, the first boot would die, and the reboot would wake up thinking it was the first boot.

But if a consciousness can be simulated on a computer running at multiple GHz, would not a simulation on a computer running at one cycle per hour also be consciousness? And then if you removed power from the computer for the hour between each cycle, is there any reason to think that would affect the simulation?

Comment author: woodchuck64 02 April 2012 07:59:47PM 1 point [-]

My intuition as well. Continuity seems less of a big deal when we imagine computer hardware intelligence scenarios.

As another scenario, imagine a computer based on light waves alone; it's hard to see how a temporary blocking of the input light wave, for example, could cause anything as substantial as the end of a conscious entity.

However, if I think too much about light waves and computers, I'm reminded of the LED cellular-automaton computationalist thought experiment and start to have nagging doubts about computer consciousness.

In response to Brain Preservation
Comment author: MaoShan 28 March 2012 05:59:48PM -6 points [-]

Another aspect which I have not seen discussed so far is of a quasi-philosophical nature: What makes you "you"? Yes, it is possible that my brain could have been started up last Thursday, giving me the illusion of the memories I have. But say I made that same copy next Thursday. That being would have all of those memories that I have, and all prior associations and synapses, but if he had an accident with a nailgun the next day, I wouldn't feel any physical pain. That is because he is not me. Even if he has almost identical physical circumstances, there is no continuity between him and me. If I died before the nailgun incident, it would not be me that felt the pain.

Instead, let's say I froze my brain. My brain that makes me me, stops working. That makes the thing that is me cease to exist. The continuity stops there. The person that you revive 200 years into the future may have the same state that I left with, but it wouldn't be me in the sense that makes you want to preserve "yourself" via cryonics in the first place. It defeats its own purpose.

If it is your pattern, your personality, your way of life that you want to preserve, you win. Parents attempt this all the time, tribes, nations, and cultures do it. I have replicas of myself and relatives on The Sims 3 that I identify with. He acts the same as if I was in that situation, so he is in effect a copy of me. If you downloaded your brain and copied it, you could have copies that would do just as you would, but the one in the body reading this comment right now, that's the instantiation that you most likely care about preserving. Sure, it would be cool to have someone exactly like you living in the far future, but you'd only be the brain donor who died to create him.

The only way of preserving yourself indefinitely is to gradually transition your personality onto better hardware. Currently, it is my opinion that ethics is the only thing preventing the creation of a BCI suitable for the task.

In response to comment by MaoShan on Brain Preservation
Comment author: woodchuck64 28 March 2012 08:38:15PM *  2 points [-]

Instead, let's say I froze my brain. My brain that makes me me, stops working. That makes the thing that is me cease to exist. The continuity stops there.

How is sleep, unconsciousness, deep anesthesia any different, though?

But further, why is continuity important? If intelligence can be simulated on a computer, and it seems likely that intelligence sophisticated enough to ponder it's own consciousness probably really is conscious, why would a reboot have any effect on its identity?

In any case, I don't have any answers. Eliezer's Identity Isn't In Specific Atoms for me seems to suggest cryonics is probably unnecessary if I can instead do a molecule-level brain-image upload before death (assuming that turns out to be possible). But if that's so, don't we also need to reject the idea of a personal future?

Comment author: Rain 19 March 2012 02:43:47PM 10 points [-]

Also note that millions more are injured rather than killed every year, making the dangers far higher than the death statistics indicate.

Comment author: woodchuck64 20 March 2012 08:29:05PM *  4 points [-]

And brain injury is particularly prevalent:

In a previous analysis of injuries among drivers admitted to Maryland hospitals following car crashes, it was noted that 37.7% incurred a TBI (Dischinger, 1999).

From Causes and Outcomes of Mild Traumatic Brain Injury: An Analysis of Ciren Data

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 06 March 2012 10:12:01AM 18 points [-]

So, feedback requested on the Dr. Zany thing. Made an otherwise dry post more interesting to read, or pointless and distracting?

Comment author: woodchuck64 08 March 2012 08:53:23PM *  11 points [-]

Challenge the mutability of the antecedent. Since AS-01's counterfactual is of the form ”if A, then B”, Dr. Zany could question the plausibility of A.

brain balks at "mutability", stumbles over "antecedent", sprains ankle on "counterfactual"

”Baloney!” exclaims Dr. Zany. ”No TV reporter could ever have wandered past, let alone seen the robbery!”

Oh, I get it! Brain jumps up and down with glee.

I found it helpful and entertaining.

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