Comment author: PrometheanFaun 21 January 2014 10:11:31AM *  0 points [-]

As I understand it, Hofstadter's advocacy of cooperation was limited to games with some sense of source-code sharing. Basically, both agents were able to assume their co-players had an identical method of deciding on the optimal move, and that that method was optimal. That assumption allows a rather bizarre little proof that cooperation is the result said method arrives at.

And think about it, how could a mathematician actually advocate cooperation in pure, zero knowledge vanilla PD? That just doesn't make any sense as a model of an intelligent human being's opinions.

Comment author: ygert 21 January 2014 11:50:16AM *  2 points [-]

Agreed. But here is what I think Hofstadter was saying: The assumption that is used can be weaker than the assumption that the two players have an identical method. Rather, it just needs to be that they are both "smart". And this is almost as strong a result as the true zero knowledge scenario, because most agents will do their best to be smart.

Why is he saying that "smart" agents will cooperate? Because they know that the other agent is the same as them in that respect. (In being smart, and also in knowing what being smart means.)

Now, there are some obvious holes in this, but it does hold a certain grain of truth, and is a fairly powerful result in any case. (TDT is, in a sense, a generalization of exactly this idea.)

Comment author: Nornagest 20 January 2014 08:56:29PM *  6 points [-]

Let's not pat ourselves on the back too much. Voters here absolutely respond to social cues (albeit unusual ones from the perspective of the wider culture) and to local status; the vote record on a post is not a totally dispassionate estimate of its quality.

That said, pure social awkwardness might limit a post's potential upvotes, but it usually isn't enough to get a post downvoted: that takes obvious bias, factual error, egregiously bad English, a perception of bad faith, or -- exceptionally -- attracting the ire of a serial downvoter. The truly clueless may risk pattern-matching to "bad faith", but that's fairly rare; the rest are more or less orthogonal to social skills.

Comment author: ygert 20 January 2014 09:55:48PM *  1 point [-]

Let's not pat ourselves on the back too much.

That was never my intention. I actually initially meant to stress this more, but I cut it as it didn't really fit.

The most important note that it is not necessarily a good thing to ignore social cues. They exist for good reasons. Discourse flows a lot better when it is polite and well presented. Those who ignore that do so at their own peril.

Some do, however. Including us, to some exten. You cannot deny that the population of Less Wrongers is weighted heavily towards the type of people that might be known as nerds, who dismiss the social glue, and prefer more bluntness in their discourse than is usual. Again, this is not necessarily good: See Why Our Kind Can't Cooperate.

In some ways it is good, though: It encourages the virtues of truth-seeking and of not responding to tone, and in general is an attitude that is conductive to the types of things discussed around here. (This is why Less Wrong is neuroatypical in specifically this direction.)

Comment author: Error 20 January 2014 07:43:22PM *  4 points [-]

I have a self-image of having badly sub-par social skills, and have a fair amount of evidence to back up that image. On the other hand, I note that I currently have 95% positive karma. If I lacked the capability to avoid alienating people, I would expect much more negative karma.

I am unsure whether I need to update my self-model.

Comment author: ygert 20 January 2014 08:30:30PM 2 points [-]

Perhaps people on Less Wrong are less attuned to the nuances of social norms, and rather upvote/downvote based only on the content of the post in question?

The ideal of upvoting/downvoting based only on value is one that has appeal to many of the sort of people who hang around here. We are all still human, but I would not be surprised to be told that many or most Less Wrongers are atypical in this way. (Pay less attention to social contexts, and more to content.)

In response to Karma query
Comment author: ygert 13 January 2014 11:33:11AM *  3 points [-]

Karma points count as "last 30 days karma" if they are votes on a post you made within the past month. If someone upvotes/downvotes/removes a previously made upvote/removes a previously made downvote from an older comment, you get/lose karma, but not 30 day karma. I assume that is what happened here.

Comment author: drethelin 07 January 2014 10:42:07PM 0 points [-]

I think you want to separate out "bad" from change.Things sometimes break, this happens when outside forces cause changes to it and the world it acts in. We call a thing fragile when most changes are bad from the perspective of the thing. EG ice is fragile because changes in temperature, motion, etc. will cause it to break. Anti-fragility is when the thing is designed such that the biggest possible changes do not break it.

Comment author: ygert 08 January 2014 08:36:51AM 1 point [-]

I see what you are saying, but the whole point behind anti-fragility is that change is for good, not bad. By default, in fragile things, change is bad. But in antifragile things, that change is harnessed for good.

Hm. The best way to clearly demarcate that would probably to move the word "bad" from describing the word "change", and put it as part of the first sentence.

Things sometimes break, and that is a bad thing that you do not want happening. It happens when outside forces cause changes to it and to the world it acts in. ...

Comment author: shminux 07 January 2014 05:16:33PM *  0 points [-]

Can you explain the concept of antifragility using only 1000 most common English words?

Comment author: ygert 07 January 2014 06:48:26PM *  1 point [-]

That's a fun challenge. It was hard to try to summarize the motivation behind the idea of antifragility in such a restricted vocabulary. Here is my attempt:

Things sometimes break. This happens when outside forces cause bad changes to it and to the world it acts in. Things that this can happen to are not things you can put much trust in. It would be a lot better to have something that does not change because of things happening to it, or even better, one that gets better the more those bad things happen to it. It is a good idea to make the things you have be of this sort, but that can not be done all of the time. To find things that match this idea is not easy, but it is true that there are some situations in the real world where this does happen.

Comment author: tanagrabeast 06 January 2014 10:44:49PM 4 points [-]

I just played around with Memrise, and it does indeed look perfect for my audience. I had begun my SRS search with gwern's excellent exploration of the topic, where Memrise does not appear. Thank you so much!

Comment author: ygert 07 January 2014 10:45:05AM 5 points [-]

I'm glad you like my recommendation. After you have used it for a while, perhaps consider writing up a post about your experiences teaching using an SRS. It's a topic which could be very interesting, and I'm sure that many would wish to read such a report. I certainly would.

Comment author: tanagrabeast 05 January 2014 10:00:30PM *  6 points [-]

I need some advice on spaced repetition software.

I teach high school English to underclassmen who skew towards "totally unmotivated". I have been using spaced repetition principles for years (using games, puzzles, and other spaced reviews) to help with vocabulary and terminology. These do effectively engage many of the poorly motivated.

But recently, I feel like smartphones have become ubiquitous enough among students that I'm looking for software I could use as a quasi-official SRS companion app with my students. I think many of them would use it, but only if they experience very minimal frustration setting it up and running it. My wishlist:

(1) Free app on both Android and iPhone (I'd say it's about 50/50 with my students) (2) Companion web app with cloud sync to mobile apps. (3) Very easy to use and update with new cards regularly. I would like to be able to post weekly deck additions on my teacher web page that students can add to their deck.

Anki, which I use for my personal learning, seems to come closest -- but the $25 cost of the iPhone app is a problem, and I worry that using the web app on the iPhone be too much of a hassle. I also worry that the "add external cards to your deck" procedure is a bit too hairy as well.

Has anyone seen anything that comes closer to my needs than Anki? Thanks!

Comment author: ygert 06 January 2014 06:05:21PM *  6 points [-]

Look into memrise.

It has an app, it has a lot of the bells and whistles that Anki lacks (like a scoring/gamification system) that could be helpful with the population you are teaching, and it is all around a solid SRS system. The only thing I think it lacks are those Easy/Good/Hard buttons that Anki has to differentiate between how well you know the answer, but that's something I can live without. I use both it and Anki on a day to day basis.

Comment author: Halfwitz 03 January 2014 04:22:12PM *  4 points [-]

I just finished Neon Genesis Evangelion. If you haven't seen it yet, it lives up to its reputation.

Comment author: ygert 05 January 2014 09:26:33AM *  3 points [-]

Evangelion is... Evangelion. It's the kind of work that is very hard to apply adjectives to. That said, it's very good.

Just be sure that you watch The End of Evangelion after watching all the episodes. I have a friend who watched all the episodes of Evangelion, then went around for quite some time thinking he had finished watching the whole show. Only months later did he find out that there was more, and that he had in fact missed out on the entire climax of the show.

Comment author: JenniferRM 02 January 2014 11:51:47PM 4 points [-]

This bitcoin conversation has run for almost a week now, and given the site I'd expect the level of reasoning to be quite high, yet when I hit "^Ftax" or "^Fgovern" or "^Fpolitic" almost nothing shows up, which causes me a measure of confusion, because these (much more than "magnitudes") are key nodes in my causal reasoning about the future value of bitcoins.

From my perspective, the plausible socio-political implications of bitcoin are large enough, and different enough from what I see commonly discussed, that it causes me to question the quality of my own thinking and seek education.

In 1789 Benajmin Franklin wrote a letter wherein he said:

Our new Constitution is now established, and has an appearance that promises permanency; but in this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes.

It could be that I'm wrong in my reasoning, but it appears to me that bitcoin allows tax evasion and black markets to function on such a breathtaking scale that if bitcoin persists and expands into common use then I anticipate, like tomatoes in winter, the withering of formal governmental power in its current form (based as it is on tax collection and the ability to regulate the market via indirect oversight) and perhaps even the withering of the public good of reasonably just protection services provided by democratically elected law makers.

Sharply put, it seems moderately plausible to me that either extant governments smash the bitcoin infrastructure, or bitcoin financially strangles modern nation states.

In more detail: If bitcoin turns out to be ineradicable so long as people have access to the untamed Internet (and this seems like an open but fundamentally empirically determinable question) it suggests to me that human communities may collectively face a choice between cutting their wires and jamming their airwaves or else lose the ability to form reasonable transparent organizations with elected officials who manage the local violence monopoly by paying law enforcers better wages than are available to criminals.

Or perhaps I'm underestimating the extent of the revamping that would be necessary? Still, it is hard to see how the IRS, SEC, ATF, or Fed could maintain their status quo operations if bitcoins become the de facto world currency. Traffic in drugs and slaves are relatively limited now, but I'm not sure it would stay so in a bitcoin dominated economy. Ransom payments become significantly more feasible with bitcoin, and the kidnapping market seems likely to grow if bitcoins persist.

Not that payment for protection services would completely disappear forever... Presumably we would switch to tax collectors (either hired by the existing but revamped governments or perhaps the henchmen of whatever violence monopolies replace them) who force people to transfer digital cash in amounts assessed based on visible or statistically inferrable indicators of wealth, or be jailed. Tax evasion in such a world seems likely to take the form of pretending to be poor, which seems to have weird implications for the personal status of the super rich? Facebook-based estimates of taxes owed would be amusing, but less ironic forms of surveillance could work as well. If the super rich were the ones hiring the tax collectors, that could reduce the number of sociologically confusing discrepancies, but it starts sounding somewhat feudal...

The Treasury Department must have people thinking about this? Or maybe the private individuals composing the Treasury Department have non-trivial personal stakes in bitcoin and no civic virtue? Or maybe the problem is international in scope and there's an element of realpolitik where some nation states expect to weather the "bitcoin winter" better than others? Or maybe... I don't know... There are a lot of things that could be going on...

In this family of scenarios, it seems like there would be large changes to many parts of the economy, many of which I expect would take a lot of people, including me, by surprise. Maybe drone-based mass surveillance and law enforcement could patch the gaps by enforcing laws so thoroughly at the physical layer than the digital layer can remain anarchic for a while longer? It seems like the kind of "everything is changing, faster and faster" thing that I might expect to be sprung on people in the lead up to various (somewhat disturbing) versions of an Kurzweil-style "smooth singularity"... Kurzweil did predict runaway deflation after all, and 2014 is the sort of year you'd read about something like this happening in a Stross novel.

So, anyway...

I see people trading in bitcoins. I don't see the government moving to destroy the bit coin markets, or talking about the bitcoin market as though bitcoins were a social scourge that fundamentally disrupts the business model of status quo governments. But I also I don't see people preparing for a profound restructuring of the political economy and everything effected by the current political economy. Thus, I am confused. I don't see other people even talking about these sorts of implications, as though they are important open questions. Thus, I am doubly confused.

My best guess as to my confusion's cause is twofold. I probably lack an adequate understanding of the big picture pragmatics of political economy, also I suspect that the really smart money in the bitcoin market is staying mostly silent so as to harvest money more efficiently. For myself, the political/moral dimension of the bitcoin market has frightened me away from it thus far... whether there is a "bitcoin winter" or a successful smashing of the bitcoin infrastructure, both outcomes seem to suggest that personal and/or political action might be prudent.

The value of information seems high. If anyone could respond here or via PM to help correct my confusion, I would very much appreciate the education!

Comment author: ygert 03 January 2014 10:11:35AM 1 point [-]

This is a long and well presented comment: I will chime in with army1987 that you could certainly write this up as a top level discussion post.

My response to it is that I think you are overestimating the value of our current form of government. This could be taken the wrong way, so let me be clear: It is a very good thing that w have a government. Without it, our lives would be nasty, brutish and short. Despite this, government-as-we-know-it (nationalism) is a very recent invention, and while it does some great things (and some not-so-great things), it (in its current form) is far from essential for society.

Democracy is better than monarchy, yes, but that does not mean it is the ideal government. (Recall that famous Churchill quote.) Trying to preserve it when future technology renders it obsolete is a bad idea, in my opinion.

So what should replace it? That is a deep and important issue, and one I can philosophise in depth over. This comment is already long, so I will spare a lengthy discussion here, but it suffices to say that while I am not sure, and this is a topic that needs much deep research and serious thought, I do see several possible directions and solutions that could bare fruit. If you are interested in continuing this conversation I would be happy to expound upon them.

In short, my two related arguments are that: 1) While Bitcoin may or may not bring down nationalism, that in itself does not mean anarchy and and a Hobbesian state of nature; and 2) Democracy is nice, in that it's better than most other forms of government, but it's by no means essential.

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