All of A-Lurker's Comments + Replies

Food is important and it is supported with tax payer money by some governments for that very reason. I think government action on it should be considered. Of course no changes should be made if the system isn't broken and and if they do it should be for the better or not at all. I'm not advocating socialism just for the sake of being socialist. When private is better- it's better.

About the straws you fully missed the point. What i'm saying is no matter how bad someone screwed up the straw industry it won't be a serious blow to society. By talking about supply and demand you are changing the subject

4A1987dM
Actually I am under the impression that the main effects of agricultural subsidies are to make food cheaper for people in the First World who are already eating (more than) enough, while making competition for Third World farmers much harder.

The difference is the new system doesn't let houses burn

I agree those are issues. That's why I said I think the government has no place making twirly drinking straws- the private market does it better. When we talk about fire departments though I think the issue still should be addressed but it doesn't outright kill the concept. its a negative factor which needs to be mitigated but i believe its possible.

My point is that fires are put out because they are fires and no fire brigades watch a house burn down anymore. You think it means nothing?

-5Eugine_Nier

Yes I do know that. I nearly mentioned that but didn't. There is of course a wide range of regulation beliefs. Some people do advocate for very little. You are right though, no one does call for no laws or regulation. From that some people can also learn that the ideas I have are not new or alien but are actually just an extension or using the ideas already in place.

No not by magic and it doesn't fix every single problem. But just look at one example if you want to understand my point of view; before fire fighters were socialised, there existed a time in the US where people had to pay private companies or have their house burn down. Socialism didn't magically cure anything but simply removed some of the opportunity for bad things to happen. Can you tell me how your point refutes the fire brigade example?

0Eugine_Nier
Now they have to pay (higher) taxes or be arrested for tax evasion. What's your point?

What I'm talking about when I say that is private ownership and enterprise. When I say unrestrained that means no laws or regulation. For example there are regulations which make companies write the ingredients on food product labels.

4blacktrance
No laws or regulation? I hope you know that most people who advocate for capitalism aren't anarchists, and those of them who are believe in free-market laws. So there's no one who's in favor of "no laws or regulation".

lol not negative utility to me- to him! It hasn't hurt my feelings or made me feel like a victim, I'm talking about how someone has misinterpreted and acted out on to the world. Even at that it was such a minor incident that i'm not talking about this in terms of damage done. What i'm really saying is- why is someone acting irrational on a rationality website?

2Lumifer
The obvious answer is that people here are humans and not Vulcans. But I don't see the irrationality you are talking about. Rationality doesn't specify values or goals. You know nothing about the person who downvoted you or the reasons he did it. Given this, your accusation of irrationality seems... hasty. Even irrational, one might say :-)

To be honest, I guess my comment was just a complaint with no expected result. It really had no point other than some kind of emotional release

Hmm I see your point- but if what they did was called 'rational' then there has to be another word for the part where they made the mistake. The mistake was they came to so much of a conclusion about something that they acted on it. They were wrong. They caused negative utility. It negatively effected the world and also their understanding of it. What is that called?

-1Lumifer
All that about a single downvote..? X-D I recommend growing thicker skin, quickly.

lol ok yes as I typed that I had to ask myself that exact same question- since it's such a bold thing to say and exactly what someone with a problem might say.

I could explain why I am sure, but I'm not sure anyone is interested in that explanation. I've got a ask me a question comment on here so I guess if anyone is interested- they can ask :-)

But why do people just accept the status quo?? Politics doesn't kill my mind. I know how to not 'cheer for my team' and to think about topics in a balanced way. I expect people to act irrationally on the comment section of the news website I read- but why are people not rising above it on this website of all places?

Get use to it? It's very hard to think it's rare and unexpected for people to talk about a topic rationally. I don't see why people find it so hard- especially when they've apparently read articles highlighting common problems and where they come from.

0TheOtherDave
When we find it hard to think that things are as they are, and we find it hard to see why things are as they are, that's often a good time to pay close attention to the behavior of the system. Often this has better results than expecting the behavior to be different and complaining when it isn't... though admittedly, sometimes complaining has good results. Or do you have a third alternative in mind?
0Lumifer
Heh. Are you quite sure of that? :-)

Yes but like you said, "you [need to] already have some necessary rationality to do this"- that's the kind of thing i'm talking about. You can't buy that original rationality and you can't buy the fact that rationality exists. The stuff you said is true but I think you are trying to answer to different topic than which it is relevant to. Money can buy things and make you happy- but money can't buy the fact that happy exists. When I talk about "money can't buy everything", it's in that way that i'm talking about (not to be confused as saying 'owning things doesn't make you happy').

That would be an assumption and entirely irrational. I am not going to be unpleasant nor engage in a lengthy debate about anything- least of all expanding the topic to other middle east politics.

I simply wanted to know what it's like to live in such a controversial topic. Where does he finds himself in it (as in does he feel like it's in another world or maybe it's a daily experience?). I really don't know if the average person there feels like they are part of what is happening or if it is something they see in the news like every one else in the world a... (read more)

2TheOtherDave
Yes, it's an assumption. An irrational assumption? No, not especially. In the absence of special information about you, it's rational enough to assume you are a typical commenter on this site. If they observe evidence of your exceptionality, a rational observer updates based on that information.
0pragmatist
The way people vote on politically contentious topics on this site is very far from some rational ideal. Politics is the mind-killer and all that. I don't think it's changing any time soon, so I'd recommend just getting used to it.

To have one without the other? You mean pubic funded fire brigades that are managed by a private company? Yeah I can see that. On the other hand though, I see a lot of problems with a privately run police force. For example if the chief of police was making a profit from fighting crime, why would he not expand his business by creating more crime to fight?

What criterion do I use to say the government shouldn't make twirly straws but should collect tax for (and possibly run) fire brigades? The nature of the service and how fundamental it is to society. Also ... (read more)

1Eugine_Nier
Only if you pay him by criminal caught, as opposed to making him part of an insurance company that is responsible for reimbursing people victimized by crime. Food is fundamental to society, should all food production be government controlled? If the only drinking straw company decided it was going to make gold straws, another company would get into the straw making business and start making affordable straws.
2Lumifer
Funny that you mention that. The US police works basically on this model and yet it is government-controlled...

Why would someone down vote me without commenting as to why? Why would my question warrant a down vote anyway?

2Lumifer
That's standard operating procedure around here. Most up- and down-votes are given without comment. Your question implies that Israel's "history and current course of action" are bad/shameful/immoral/etc.
3asr
Downvotes without comments are routine. I didn't vote, but I suspect the downvoter felt that a discussion of Middle-East politics was likely to follow from the question, and likely to be unpleasant or heated.

No not really. Like I said I think it can play a role along side and in conjunction with capitalism/private ownership. Even if the government didn't own any companies or what not, socialism can still exist in the form of taxation and social spending. It's more about regulation and distribution of a societies wealth. Once the state starts owning and controlling everything, that's when I would start to call it 'communism' or something around those lines. I am not for this total control and ownership concept as I think capitalism does play a role in innovation and economic growth. To be communist would be to destroy all the benefits of capitalism.

1Lumifer
I did not say "complete and total government ownership and control". As you yourself point out in contemporary societies the government owns and controls a lot. For example, the army, as you said. Under your definition, is there anything government-controlled that you would not call "socialist"? And in reverse, do you think there is anything socialist that is not connected to the government?

Why do I think free markets and private property is "every man for himself"?

1) Human nature. Most people can't see past their own nose. In fact some people have such a massive problem finding empathy for other people that they act, for one example, racist and intolerant to other people. To put it simply, I think human kind has demonstrated how selfish and cruel it can be when left unrestrained. To have an entirely free market and everything private owned would be to let free and even propel all of the nasty things inside people. Just as without l... (read more)

-3Eugine_Nier
If someone finds out that their poisonous he has the option of buying from a different company. By way of contrast, if all lollies were manufactured by the "department of lollies" and the head of the department decided to sell the poison lollies to meet budget constraints, my only recourse is to not consume lollies. Notice that the private company can engage in this kind of behavior only if they are sure the defect will never be found out, by contrast the government department has no reason not to produce products with glaring defects, after all it's not like people can switch to a competing product. Furthermore, the the salary of the department head likely isn't even affected by how many people buy the products produced, so he is perfectly happy to waste public resources producing defective products no one wants.
1Eugine_Nier
And yet you believe the proses of taking a government job magically cures people of all these problems?
2blacktrance
As a libertarian, I don't think you and I mean the same things by "capitalism". Could you explain what you mean by "capitalism", and "unrestrained capitalism"?

To me socialism is not an exact system but is a concept. In that way, it can be a bit vague but the general principle is that the resources of a society are best used with a coordinated effort to pool them together as opposed to spending in an un-coordinated and selfish way.

Where as some people think that socialism is a system to rival or replace capitalism, my idea of socialism works in tandem with capitalism. To begin with, a lot of industry is best left for private enterprise to deal with. There is nothing to gain from the government owning a twirly dr... (read more)

0Lumifer
So, "socialism" means to you government ownership and control, right?
-2Eugine_Nier
Do you realize that it's possible to have one without the other? What criterion are you using to make this distinction?

I am strongly for socialism. This comes from two main points of view; 1) I think the ethical thing to do is to work together and help others as opposed to 'every man for himself'. 2) I think that 'team work' achieves more and thus it's not just about what is moral but what actually works better. One way to think of it is that we can either all buy a fire hose and a ladder- or we could pool the money together to pay for a professional team with a truck to service the town.

2blacktrance
Why do you think capitalism (free markets + private property) is "every man for himself"? Do you think capitalism and cooperation are opposed? If so, why?
2Lumifer
How do you define "socialism"? Examples would be helpful.

I agree a lot with this article but I think it's not a reply to all definitions of the argument; 'there are some things money can't buy'. I'll start by saying what I agree with. Money does buy things. Having more money makes things easier/possible. Time is money and opportunities not taken are lost money. From that angle I fully agree.

But even still, money can't buy everything. I read just moments ago a good quote which said something to the effect of; someone might say they have an apparent end goal of making lots of money but if asked what they would do... (read more)

5Viliam_Bur
Well, assuming you already have some necessary rationality to do this, you can use money to fine-tune your health (maximize your intelligence within your genetic limits) and buy all education and training you need, such as CFAR workshops (maximize your rationality and skills). Then you give yourself a multiplier by buying all the tools and assistants you need. If you started decently intelligent and rational, you might end up extremely awesome. (Maybe even so awesome that the increased income will be greater than all those initial expenses.)

I'm an Australian male with strong views on Socialism. I have an interest in modern history and keeping up with international news.

-4Eugine_Nier
Do you know any economic theory? For example, are you familiar with the concept of supply and demand?
2asr
What do you mean when you talk about socialism?
0blacktrance
Are your strong views in favor of socialism or against it?

Do you believe that by living in Israel you are by de facto green-lighting it's history and current course of action (such as settlements, etc)? If not, can you explain what you believe your involvement/non-involvement entails? [edit: I think this question might of come off sounding thorny when it's not supposed to be- espiecially given the charged emotions and such on the conflict there. I just want some perspective on what it's personally like for you to 'live in the middle' of such a well known conflict]

-2A-Lurker
Why would someone down vote me without commenting as to why? Why would my question warrant a down vote anyway?

My take on drug abuse is that it isn't primarily the drugs themselves that are the problem but the user. That is to say the drugs have powerful and harmful effects, but the buck ultimately stops with the user who chooses to imbibe them. As physically addictive as some drugs can be, not everyone will; A) Be addicted if they try it once, and, B) Actually want to use the drug to begin with. It's the people who are depressed, self-harming, etc, who have drug problems. I think my point can be easily confused so i'll give an analogy: a magnetic sea mine is terri... (read more)