All of aaguirre's Comments + Replies

Great article Garrison!

I found that the vitriolic debate between the people worried about extinction and those worried about AI’s existing harms hides the more meaningful divide — between those trying to make AI more profitable and those trying to make it more human.

Bravo.

aaguirre7045

Matthew I think you're missing a pretty important consideration here, which is that all of these policy/governance actions did not "just happen" -- a huge amount of effort has been put into them, much of it by the extended AI safety community, without which I think we would be in a very different situation. So I take almost the opposite lesson from what's happening: concerted effort to actually try to govern AI might actually succeed -- but we should be doubling down on what we are doing right and learning from what we are doing wrong, not being complacent.

aog*4420

To test this claim we could look to China, where AI x-risk concerns are less popular and influential. China passed a regulation on deepfakes in January 2022 and one on recommendation algorithms in March 2022. This year, they passed a regulation on generative AI which requires evaluation of training data and red teaming of model outputs. Perhaps this final measure was the result of listening to ARC and other AI safety folks who popularized model evaluations, but more likely, it seems that red teaming and evaluations are the common sense way for a government... (read more)

shakeelh2926

Strong agree to this, and I’d go further — I think most of the wins from the last few months wouldn’t have happened if not for the efforts of people in the AI safety ecosystem; and as lobbying efforts from those opposed to regulation heat up, we’ll need even more people advocating for this stuff.

I agree we should not be complacent. I think there's a difference between being complacent and moving our focus to problems that are least likely to be solved by default. My primary message here is that we should re-evaluate which problems need concerted effort now, and potentially move resources to different parts of the problem -- or different problems entirely -- after we have reassessed. I am asking people to raise the bar for what counts as "concerted effort to actually try to govern AI", which I think pushes against some types of blanket advocacy that merely raise awareness, and some proposals that (in my opinion) lack nuance.

aaguirre1815

(comment crossposted from EA forum)

Very interesting post! But I'd like to push back. The important things about a pause, as envisaged in the FLI letter, for example, are that (a) it actually happens, and (b) the pause is not lifted until there is affirmative demonstration that the risk is lifted. The FLI pause call was not, in my view, on the basis of any particular capability or risk, but because of the out-of-control race to do larger giant scaling experiments without any reasonable safety assurances. This pause should still happen, and it should not be... (read more)

If anyone would like to be funded to do actual high quality research on this topic, I strongly encourage application to FLI's Humanitarian Impacts of Nuclear War grant program. For decades there have been barely any careful studies because there is barely any research funding or support. It's quite possible the effects are not as bad as currently predicted, but it's quite possible they are worse — the modern nuclear winter studies fund that things are worse than the early ones in the 80s (though fortunately the arsenals are much smaller now.)

It seems qui... (read more)

I think this depends a lot on the use case. I envision for the most part this would be used in/on large known clusters of computation, as an independent check on computation usage and a failsafe. In that case it will be pretty easy to distinguish from other uses like gaming or cryptocurrency mining. If we're in the regime where we're worried about sneaky efforts to assemble lots of GPUs under the radar and do ML with them, then I'd expect there would be pattern analysis methods that could be used as you suggest, or the system could be set up to feed back more information than just computation usage.

The purpose of the COMPUTE token and blockchain here would be to provide a publicly verifiable ledger of the computation done by the computational cores. It would not be integral to the scheme but would be useful for separating the monitoring and control, as detailed in the post. I hope it is clear that a token as a tradeable asset is not at all important to the core idea.

Very cool, thanks for the pointer!

There's no single metric or score that is going to capture everything. Metaculus points as the central platform metric were devised to —as danohu says — reward both participation and accuracy. Both are quite important. It's easy to get a terrific Brier score by cherry-picking questions. (Pick 100 questions that you think have 1% or 99% probability. You'll get a few wrong but your mean Brier score will be ~(few)*0.01. Log score is less susceptible to this). You can also get a fair number of points for just predicting the community prediction — but yo... (read more)

1rossry
I think this is actually backwards (the value goes up as the question's point value increases), because the relative score is the component responsible for the "positive regardless of resolution" payoffs. Explanation and worked example here: https://blog.rossry.net/metaculus/
5elifland
I think this unfortunately isn't true right now, and just copying the community prediction would place very highly (I'm guessing if made as soon as the community prediction appeared and updated every day, easily top 3 (edit: top 10)). See my comment below for more details. I'm very glad to hear this. I really enjoy Metaculus but my main gripe with it has always been (as others have pointed out) a lack of way to distinguish between quality and quantity. I'm looking forward to a more comprehensive selection of metrics to help with this!

I am not an expert on the Outer Space Treaty either, but by also by anecdotal evidence, I have always heard it to be of considerable benefit and a remarkable achievement of diplomatic foresight during the Cold War. However, I would welcome any published criticisms of the Outer Space Treaty you wish to provide.

It's important to note that the treaty was originally ratified in 1967 (as in, ~two years before landing on the Moon, ~5 years after the Cuban Missile Crisis). If you critique a policy for its effects long after its original passage (as with referenc... (read more)

habryka200

your critique is really about the government(s) failing to update and revise the policy, not with the enactment of original policy.

This feels like a really weird statement to me. It is highly predictably that as soon as a law is in place, that there is an incentive to use it for rent-seeking, and that abolishing a policy is reliably much harder than enacting a new policy. When putting in place legislation, the effects of your actions that I will hold you responsible for of course include the highly predictably problems that will occur when your legislation will not have been updated and revised in a long time. That's one of the biggest limitations of legislation as a tool for solving problems!

You're certainly entitled to your (by conventional standards) pretty extreme anti-regulatory view of e.g. the FDA, IRBs, environmental regulations, etc., and to your prior that regulations are in general highly net negative. I don't share those views but I think we can probably agree that there are regulations (like seatbelts, those governing CFCs, asbestos, leaded gasoline, etc.) that are highly net positive, and others (e.g. criminalization of some drugs, anti-cryptography, industry protections against class action suits, etc.) that are nearly completel... (read more)

habryka130

the space treaty

It's been a while since I looked into this, but if I remember correctly the space treaty is currently a major obstacle to industrializing space, due to making mostly impossible to have almost any form of private property of asteroids, or the moon, or other planets, and creating a large fraction of regulatory ambiguity and uncertainty for anyone wanting to work in this space. 

When I talked to legal experts in the space for an investigation I ran for FHI 3-4 years ago, my sense was that the space treaty was a giant mess, nobody knew what... (read more)

"Regulation," in the sense of a government limitation on otherwise "free" industry does indeed make a bit more sense, and you're certainly entitled to the view that many pieces of regulation of the free market are net negative — though again I think it is quite nuanced, as in many cases (DMCA would be one) regulation allows more free markets that might not otherwise exist.

In this case, though, I think the more relevant reference class is "international arms control agreements" like the bioweapons convention, the convention on conventional weapons, the spac... (read more)

6habryka
Hmm, yeah, I think there is still something missing here. I agree that regulation on a "free" industry is one example that I am thinking of, and certainly one that matters a good amount, but I am talking about something a bit broader. More something like "governments in general seem to take actions of a specific shape and structure, and in some domains, actions of that shape can make problems worse, not better".  Like, whether something is done via an international arms control agreement, or locally passed legislation, the shape of both of those actions is highly similar, with both being heavily constrained to be simple, both being optimized for low trust environments, both requiring high levels of legibility, etc. In this perspective, there are of course some important differences between regulation and "international arms control agreements", but they clearly share a lot of structure, and their failure modes will probably be pretty similar. I am also importantly not arguing for "let's just ignore the whole space". I am arguing for something much more like "it appears that in order to navigate this space successfully, it seems really important to understand past failures of people who are in a similar reference class to us, and generally enter this space with sensible priors about downside risk".  I think past participants in this space appear to have very frequently slid down a slope of deception, exaggeration and adversarial discourse norms, as well as ended up being taken advantage of by local power dynamics and short-term incentives, in a way that caused them to lose at least a lot of my trust, and I would like us to act in a way that is trustworthy in this space. I also want us to avoid negative externalities for the surrounding communities and people working in the x-risk space (by engaging in really polarizing discourse norms, or facilitating various forms of implicit threats and violence). I think one important difference might be that I view the case o

Thanks Oliver for this, which likewise very much helps me understand better where some of the ideological disagreements lie. Your statement “but then again, the vast majority of policy passed is strongly net-negative” encapsulates it well. Leaving aside that (even if we could agree on what “positive” and “negative” were) this seems almost impossible to evaluate, it indicates a view that the absence of a policy on something is “no policy”. Whereas in my view in the vast majority of situations the absence of some policy is some other policy, whether it’s ... (read more)

habryka100

If the above seemed confusing, just replace “policy” with “regulation” and my point doesn’t change very much. I feel like it’s not that hard to reliably identify worlds with more vs. less government regulation. I agree that in some abstract sense “there is always a policy”, but I am pointing to a much more concrete effect, which is that most passed regulation seems net-negative to me, whether national or international. 

I think it’s very reasonable to try to influence and change regulation that will be passed anyways, but it seems that FLI is lobbying ... (read more)

I'd say you are summarizing at least part of the reasoning as I see it, but I'd add that AWs in general seem likely to significantly increase the number of conflicts and the risk of escalation into a full-scale war (very likely to then go nuclear).

I'm not sure what basis there is for thinking that there is some level of "finite supply" of goodwill toward international agreements. Indeed my intuition would be that more international agreements set precedent and mechanisms for more others, in more of a virtuous than self-limiting cycle. If I had to choose ... (read more)

1MichaelA
Did you mean something like "and in fact I think that one helps with the other"?
2Ben Pace
Just want to acknowledge that I agree it's worth working on even if it's not the only scenario by which AGI might be developed. The main thing I want to reply to has already been said by Oliver, that I want to see a thoughtful policy proposal first, and expect any such campaign to be net negative before then. Regarding the amount of goodwill, I'm talking about the goodwill between the regulators and the regulated. When regulatory bodies are incredibly damaging and net negative (e.g. the FDA, the IRB) then the people in the relevant fields often act in an actively adversarial way toward those bodies. If a group passes a pointless, costly regulation about military ML systems, AI companies will (/should) respond similarly, correctly anticipating future regulatory bloat and overreach.
habryka*110

But in trying to figure out what might work, actually interesting solutions may well arise.

Hmm, this feels like it highlights some problem I have with FLI's work in this domain. As you seem to agree with here, it's pretty plausible that there is no legislation that is particularly useful in this space, because legislation is really heavily limited by how complicated and nuanced it can be, and heavily constrained by how robust to rules-lawyering it has to be, and so it's pretty plausible to me that all legislation in this space is a bad idea. 

But both ... (read more)

As with chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons, it will/would be difficult to forestall determined people from getting their hands on them indefinitely — and probably more difficult than any of those cases since there's indeed lots of dual use from drones, and you won't (probably) fear for your life in building one.

Nonetheless I think there is a huge difference between weapons built by amateurs (and even by militaries in secret) versus an open and potential arms-race effort by major military powers. No amateur is going to create a drone WMD, and we can hope that at some level nation-state level anti-AW defenses can keep up with a much less determined program of AW development.

Thanks for your comment. In terms of technical AI safety, I think an interesting research question is the dynamics of multiple adversarial agents — i.e. is there a way to square the need for predicability and control with the need for a system to be unexploitable by an adversary, or are these in hopeless tension? This is relevant for AWs, but seems to also potentially be quite relevant for any multipolar AI world with strongly competitive dynamics.

To answer your research question, in much the same way that in computer security any non-understood behavior of the system which violates our beliefs about how it's supposed to work is a "bug" and very likely en route to an exploit - in the same way that OpenBSD treats every crash as a security problem, because the system is not supposed to crash and therefore any crash proves that our beliefs about the system are false and therefore our beliefs about its security may also be false because its behavior is not known - in AI safety, you would expect system s... (read more)

Thanks for this great piece!  A few thoughts with my Metaculus hat on:

  • We can think of a sort of "contest spectrum" where there is always a ranking, and there is a relationship between ranking and win probability.  On one end of the spectrum the top N people win, and on the other end people are just paid in proportion to how well they predict.  The latter end runs into legal problems, as it's effectively then just a betting , while the former end runs into problems, as you say, if the number of questions in the contest is too low.  Our c
... (read more)