All of Airedale's Comments + Replies

Airedale100

I have seen a couple articles (e.g., here noting that the prosecution presented a new theory on motive this time around:

Prosecutors in the original trial said Knox and Sollecito, along with a man named Rudy Hermann Guede, had killed Kercher during a drug-fueled sex game in which the British student was an unwilling participant.

. . .

In the Florence retrial, prosecutor Alessandro Crini contended that the motive was rooted in arguments between roommates Knox and Kercher about cleanliness and was triggered by a toilet left unflushed by Guede, the only p

... (read more)

That sounds close to a tautology to me.

Yeah, I didn't phrase that very clearly. My thinking was drawing a distinction between (1) what may be the smaller portion of resources that is always up for grabs (and that is perhaps mainly grants) and (2) the larger portion of resources that is not discretionary in the same way because it is awarded by the government without the competitive grant application process. Of course, there may still be opportunities to also influence how that larger portion of resources is distributed, e.g., lobbying or maybe gaming the system to affect the distribution in some way.

Airedale110

Most of the money/resources schools receive comes in the form of grants.

Could you provide a source for that?

This claim definitely conflicts with my understanding, although perhaps it's true for that portion of resources that is actually up for grabs and not already committed through the normal funding (government) process.

This link is more in line with my understanding, that is, that most resources come from state and local government, and most of those resources are not awarded through "grants," but rather that local resources generally st... (read more)

1Douglas_Knight
Thanks! That link did imply that the 10% of funding that is federal is structured as grants, which surprised me. Though it's not clear that it means exactly the same thing as in this post. That sounds close to a tautology to me. Aren't grant applications the way that one grabs resources that are up for grabs? (OK, I can think of other examples, like specializing in disabled students, but...)

Meta karma-related question that occurred to me on reading the post on Retributive Downvoting, but which didn't really fit there: One thing that I sometimes do in upvoting/downvoting is to calibrate my vote based on how many up or down votes the comment already has; for example, if a comment is at plus 10, but I think it's only a tiny bit good, I might downvote it; whereas if a comment is at -10, but I think it's only a little bit bad, I may upvote it (whereas if the little bit good comment was at 1-2, I would upvote, and it the little bit bad comment was... (read more)

This may overlap with some of the other issues listed, but I think it comes from a slightly different place mentally/emotionally: They're purposefully trying to disengage early rather than getting into a fight about who has the "last word" on the subject, e.g., on some level they may want to respond or even to "win" the exchange, but they're purposefully telling themselves to step away from the computer.

2aelephant
I have consciously done this before. Especially growing up, I was always obsessed with "being right".

I love it!

I wanna be the Society for Rare Diseases in Cute Puppies!.

I'm an aspiring babyeater.

The latest hot fanfic: Aubrey de Grey and the Methods of universal sex.

That which can be destroyed by awesome warm fuzzies should be.

In the new version of Newcomb's problem, you have to choose between a box containing timeless hugging and a box containing fun.

5beoShaffer
Fixed it for you.

For example, when discussing gender-related problems, it seems inevitable that some proposed solutions will generally be better for men, and other solutions will generally be better for women. If people are selfish, then they will each prefer the solution that's individually best for them, even if they can agree on all of the facts. (It's unclear whether people should be selfish, but it seems best to assume that most are, for practical purposes.)

But isn't it possible that in any given bargaining situation there may also be a win-win solution that makes ... (read more)

6Wei Dai
"Leaves everyone better off" (i.e., making a Pareto improvement) is a tall order if there are more than a few people involved. Just "making the pie bigger" is much more plausible, but in general people will disagree about what counts as making the pie bigger, since we don't have an agreed-upon way of doing interpersonal comparison of utility. I'm not saying that discussion/debate can't serve the purpose of joint optimization, but it often doesn't, and we can mostly see why.

** Not that I would expect it to work well; most people wouldn't consider the author a moral authority who's entitled to shame them. Behavior modification is hard.

Not a moral authority for most people who might stumble upon the post, sure, but I would guess that Scalzi is a reasonable facsimile of such of person for the audience of SFF fandom and con attendees at whom the post was more specifically aimed. He's perhaps not a "moral authority" but he is a person of sufficiently high status in that community that his words would carry some weigh... (read more)

For sci fi for about that age, maybe Interstellar Pig, although it does not seem to be available on Kindle. Might be a little scary (scared me when I was about that age). Caveat - haven't read it since I was a kid, so not sure how well it holds up.

Even as an adult, I enjoyed The Mysterious Benedict Society books by Trenton Lee Stewart. 4th/5th grade is probably about right. How can you not love a series with a book titled The Mysterious Benedict Society and the Prisoner's Dilemma?

0[anonymous]
Easily!

Read in the context of the entire thread, I take this as a non-apology apology, not an expression of remorse or contrition. In the thread, Mallah continued to take the position that the woman “deserved” the spanking, and it appears to me that the apology was made in order to avoid future confrontation/trouble, not remorse. Moreover, Mallah also commented:

It was a mistake. Why? It exposed me to more risk than was worthwhile, and while I might have hoped that (aside from simple punishment) it would teach her the lesson that she ought to follow the Golden

... (read more)

I don't know that moving it is necessary at this point, but it's something to keep in mind for the future. It's not like there's a brightline rule, it just struck me as more appropriate for Discussion.

Also, on substance, one possible book to take a look at is The Inner Game of Tennis. Since you have a background in sports, and sports competition seems to be one of the areas where you've had this problem most often, that and/or other sports psychology books might be an interesting way for you to get into the issues. I haven't read it in years, and I'm no... (read more)

Airedale170

I would personally prefer to see this in Discussion. Your personal story is interesting (and I recognize some of it in myself), but I don't think the personal background (plus your brief request for recommended literature, plan for Part II, etc.) is a sufficiently fleshed out idea at this point given that you aren't yet at the point of offering any guidance on solving the problem. Of course, Part II's literature review/recommendations may be of more benefit to the community and be a better fit for Main.

0HungryTurtle
Aristotle was an advocate of what he called practical wisdom. Practical wisdom is knowing when it is appropriate to break the rules. I understand and personally agree with your statement, but I also believe that when someone has the courage to share a personal problem the priority should be showing support to your community member.to your community member.
6Swimmer963 (Miranda Dixon-Luinenburg)
You're probably right. I think that the underlying thought running through my head was "it would be weird to put Part I in discussion but Part II in main." (I was originally planning to post everything together, but deciding that a) it would be too long, and b) I wanted feedback in order to continue with my research.) Do you think it would be a good idea to move it to discussion at this point? I think you can do that by going back to 'edit'.
3Unnamed
The meetup starts at 1:00 pm. The planned topic of conversation is: "What are you working on, and how can we help each other be more strategic with these projects?" And anyone who is learning this information from my comment should join the google group, where we've been discussing plans for the meetup.
0falenas108
Yeah, I forgot to set a time when I made this post.
Airedale140

Isn't is possible that Prismattic's comment could be receiving so many upvotes because other people also find comments of the sort described irritating and are embracing the opportunity to signal that irritation? Like Prismattic, I don't generally downvote comments on this basis alone. But I'm definitely tired of seeing the types of comments described, especially in those instances when, at least to my eyes, the commenters seem to be affecting a certain world-weary sorrow and wisdom while hinting at the profound truths that could be freely discussed but ... (read more)

7steven0461
If what's suggested is "You guys would punish me for stating my arguments, therefore I win the debate", I agree that's unreasonable. If what's suggested is "You guys would punish me for stating my arguments, therefore no real debate has taken place", I think that's far more reasonable.

Yes, we have somewhat irregularly occurring meetups that are announced here on LW and on our Google Group e-mail list (which can be accessed from Nic's Discussion Group Post link).

Airedale100

Fair enough, but in light of your phrasing in both the original comment ("If I [did the following things]") and your comment immediately following it (quoted below; emphasis added), it certainly appeared to me that you seemed to be describing a significant role for yourself, even though your proposal was general overall.

(Some people, including me, would really like it if a competent and FAI-focused uber-rationalist non-profit existed. I know people who will soon have enough momentum to make this happen. I am significantly more familiar with the

... (read more)

Steven0461 and I will probably be able to make it. Thanks for taking the initiative!

Airedale130

I have a weird rather mixed reputation among the greater LW community, so if that affects you negatively please pretend that someone with a more solid reputation but without super high karma is asking this question, like Steven Kaas.

Unless you would be much less involved in this potential program than the comment indicates, this seems like an inappropriate request. If people view you negatively due to your posting history, they should absolutely take that information into account in assessing how likely they would be to provide financial support to suc... (read more)

8Will_Newsome
I was more interested in Less Wrong's interest in new FAI-focused organizations generally than in anything particularly tied to me.
Airedale120

I agree with you on the skeeviness of the terminology of "scoring" a one night stand; interestingly, version 1 of the post instead states that Luke "had [his] first one-night stand." Although I haven't compared the versions carefully, it therefore seems like version 1 may make more of an attempt to avoid that sort of language.

Steven[0461] and I would like to come up from Chicagoland for a Madison meet-up sometime, but we could only make it on a weekend. We would only be occasional attendees at any rate, but perhaps you could also do a weekend meet-up every once in a while, in addition to whatever weekday you settle on. Also, the date in the title doesn't currently match the date in the text.

2fiddlemath
ha, ahaha. I was thinking of the chord, clearly. :/

Sorry for the late notice. Steven and I usually try to give about a week or so notice, but it didn't work out this time. We figured it's better to have one now even with late notice than to wait until the next time our schedules cleared. Also, we have a Google Group where you can sign up to get e-mail notifications rather than relying on catching it on the site. Hopefully you can make it to the next one!

1TheatreAddict
It's alright. I'm rather new to the site, so would you happen to know if there are ever events or meeting in Michigan? And how old are the people who usually go? Do teens ever show up?

I think there are some interesting ideas here, and I agree that analysis of art can (and sometimes should) be done at a high level. But I'm doubtful that The Hangover or even The Hangover 2 is the best example to hang your hat on. I agree with Kevin that the first movie is actually pretty funny. Plus:

Analyzing humor is like dissecting a frog. Few people are interested and the frog dies of it.

E.B. White

Maybe that the quote is not completely true (that is, there are situations when analyzing humor may lead to insight or even more humor), but to some e... (read more)

1[anonymous]
.

Steven0461 and I would like to come up from Chicagoland for a Madison meetup sometime (and weekends are better for that), but we will unfortunately be out of town that weekend. Have fun!

It's not a fashion magazine, but I find a lot of the fashion advice in Real Simple to be quite helpful, and some (although not all) of the featured clothes are affordable. The website looks like it has some good resources too.

I enjoy (and learn from) What Not to Wear, although it's probably not the most efficient way to learn about clothes, make-up, hair styles, etc. It's often pretty amusing though. Also good is the original BBC version. There appear to be some resources on both of those websites, and a number of related books, but I haven't used/read any of them.

ETA: One of the things the show taught me is that, especially if you're not that experienced with fashion, you often have to try on a lot of clothes to find something flattering. Unfortunately that can be both f... (read more)

The post appears to have been removed. I hope that means that he changed his mind, but have no information either way.

Edited to add:

hopefully this is good news:

It's often good advice, other things being equal, to go to the best school you get into. Of course, other things are rarely, if ever, equal. (Where best means most prestigious.)

The Harvard name, particularly internationally, is probably without peer among U.S. institutions. On the other hand, I think it's at least possible that for certain fields, including engineering, that an MIT degree, for example, would be viewed just as positively among those who are most likely to matter in terms of career advancement, etc. But people in engineering could speak ... (read more)

2atucker
It's funny that you say that specifically, I have a friend who's mom taught at Harvard for a stint who said the exact same thing. Said friend is very enthusiastic about Swarthmore, I really hope she gets in. That's how I chose to play the Clarinet instead Flute. I find that I'm pretty easily swayed by college visits, in that I can easily imagine myself being very happy at every school I visited and applied to (Swarthmore, Harvey Mudd, CMU, USC, UMD). So I think I did a pretty good job of narrowing them down. I need to do another analysis after hearing back about admissions and financial aid, though. On the other hand, college visits provide a really good impression of what campus life is like, particularly social life and student's study habits. On top of that, little details like food availability and class starting time make a difference in day to day happiness, and pretty much don't get mentioned anywhere else.

Not the complete story, of course, but here's an interesting recent Slate article suggesting that female professors seems to have a positive effect at the university level:

They measured, for instance, how often each student responded to questions posed by professors to the classroom as a whole. At the start of the semester, 11 percent of the female students attempted to answer questions posed to the entire class when the professor was male, and 7 percent of the female students attempted to answer questions posed to the entire class when the professor was

... (read more)
2[anonymous]
This isn't surprising, boys in elementary school do better with male teachers, which may be part of the reason why we are seeing such worrying figures about their performance in recent years.

I very much agree with siduri's comment, as well as grouchymusicologist's below. I don't know for sure which way the pros and cons of the proposed post go, but I do think it's important to consider not just the possible benefit to the current "average Less Wrong Reader" but also the other effects Siduri and grouchymusicologist identify - as Siduri says, not attracting women to the community/possibly driving women away, and as grouchymusicologist says, communicating the message "that the typical reader of LW is 20-34 and heterosexual and sing... (read more)

4[anonymous]
The whole nice guy vs. nice guy(tm) debate is rather interesting in itself, I feel that many critiques of gender relations (feminist and otherwise) seem like low hanging fruit for rationality and should be discussed more here when not interfering with the primary objective. I mostly agree with the article you linked too (I've read similar texts on the phenomena from a female perspective in the past). However let me just point out that game does make such nice guys (tm) genuinely nicer even if they don't see it as such. I'm not sure how relevant this is to a debate about PUA, especially since there is overlaps between the PUA concept of a average frustrated chump and a nice guy(tm). There is even overlap in the kind of criticism and arguments both groups use against the demographic. To explain what I mean let me just comment a few examples of the top of my head. From the wiki entry you link to: I have yet to see a example where any PUA system has advised against interpreting such a statement as anything but a polite statement of disinterest on the part of a woman. Or: Is this really a view incompatible with PUA? There is s a culture in the PUA community where about any sense of bitterness and entitlement on the part of men who don't achieve success in their pursuit of sex is derided. The whole mindset that women are the one making the wrong choice is itself anathema to the basic principle of finding what women reward and value and becoming more like that. Even Roissy in DC who is far from a pretty picture is clearly in line with this: "No one owes you sex or love. Deal with it and stop bitching." Men's Rights activists have formulated long lists of criticism of PUA and many even actively shun it because they claim that PUA is all about men conforming to female desires in behaviour far more than women conform to male desires of behaviour and proclaimed the whole thing gynocentric.
6[anonymous]
This is a very good point, the disclaimer itself hammers home some information that may move the reader to a certain impression of what LW is. In some ways I prefer not to know too much about the typical LW reader. Especially if I learned their political affiliations it might activate unwarranted biases against them.
5lukeprog
You've hit some key points here. I'm certain the post would be helpful to lots of Less Wrongers. I'm just as certain it would alienate many female readers, even if the post is not sexist apart from using terms that are usually identified with sexism. I'd never heard of Roissy, but I do hate being lumped in with Mystery and company. And yet, I understand tha is the public face of PUA. It's also annoying that a discussion of basic science of human sexual attraction response could be such a mind-killer merely because it's framed in terms of PUA. Are people really that bad at focusing on the material? If somebody was reading the exact same material in a book on human sexuality, I doubt it would offend them at all. But ah, such is humankind! Which is not to suggest I've transcended my humanity, it's just that, being male and all, this subject doesn't push my buttons that way.
Airedale140

Q: Won’t working in Australia prevent me from gaining experience in my narrow professional sub-field, thus reducing my total lifetime earning power?

A: This is almost certainly not the case for anyone under 30. Companies pay professionals more based on their abilities and their age as opposed to their actual years of experience. And, they pay more for older professionals than young ones just starting out cause they know these people really do have higher expenses and are less likely to quit. So taking a year off in your 20s to work abroad is only exchangin

... (read more)
Airedale130

Fair point, but that's no guarantee that something as high profile as a Hugo award nomination wouldn't raise flags with the legal team.

Edited to add: Having seen the cost and disruption of litigation from the lawyer's side, I may be more cautious than typical on such matters. But as the article states, JKR still holds the copyright, and even if statements like that in the paper could be used to argue for a safe harbor, I don't think that's a slam dunk response that would automatically get one out of the lawsuit with a minimal expenditure in time and money... (read more)

I am not an IP lawyer, and this is not legal advice, but isn’t there a risk that successfully placing HPMOR on the Hugo ballot for best novel could attract legal attention from JK Rowling and Co? They previously sued the HP Lexicon when it achieved a higher profile (although that situation included the factor of professional publication and compensation, which is not present here), so they’ve already shown that they’re not adverse to lawsuits in the right instance.

6HonoreDB
Shouldn't be a problem, so long as it doesn't get printed, raise money, or devolve into erotica.

Lastly, if this is something that could/should be a top level post either for assisting me in finding Minnesotans, or giving others ideas for organizing since it will receive more publicity, let me know. I've only posted twice and don't have a good sense for what warrants posting at the top level.

I think posting in the discussion section is probably a good first step to see if there is some interest (and to mention Group-o-matic), although any responses would likely understate interest since the front page gets more views than discussion, and some reade... (read more)

0Larks
At the recent London Meetup, 4 people said they'd be attending and over 12 did.

Our Chicago meetup group also has a google group for announcing meetups, discussing venues, etc. That way, some people who may be interested in Chicago meetups but who may forget to check LW (or not check at the right time) can also receive notice.

This seems like an interesting article, but I'm having a little trouble parsing the post. Was there supposed to be another sentence/paragraph before the one starting "Now, NYC City . . ." that talks about where else this methodology is used? Maybe the first sentence of the article?

0NancyLebovitz
Previous sentence from the article added for clarity.

Given a quote like this, I think the best/most obvious interpretation is to read the quote in its famous historical and political context. Divorced from that context and read literally, it is obviously false. To the extent people are parroting those words to invoke a literal interpretation, that is obviously wrong. That being said, I think that in most cases where the term is used with even the slightest thought and consideration, it is steeped in at least a bit of the political flavor of the original and is used as a statement about how people interact with each other, government, and/or society.

3TheOtherDave
Fair enough. My answer to your original question ("I don’t understand the problem with “all men are created equal.”) boils down to the fact that it is often quoted outside of its original context, causing it to be (as you say) obviously wrong. When it is instead quoted with due consideration for its original context, properly steeped in the proper political flavor, and as a statement about how people interact, I agree with you that it stops being obviously wrong, and becomes much less problematic. I think the majority of real-world uses are in the former category. I could be wrong.

I don't think people are generally using the phrase to mean that for the very reasons that it is so obviously and trivially false if used in that way. The phrase is part of a very famous historical document, and I think the most natural reading is in that original context.

2shokwave
The most natural reading of "all men are created equal" is that it predicates the quality of 'equal' on all men: formally, for all men, 'man' implies 'created equal'. That's what the sentence actually means. Keep in mind that this sentence was brought up as a case of instinctual reaction to bad logic; you may have managed to replace the obvious interpretation with the intended and reasonable one in your instinctual reactions, but for someone without that training it may be entirely accurate for them to respond with "urgh" even if that's not what people actually mean.

I believe the numbers are actually higher than $200,000. SIAI's 2008 budget was about $500,000. 2006 was about $400,000 and 2007 was about $300,000 (as listed further in the linked thread). I haven't researched to see if gross revenue numbers or revenue from donations are available. Curiously, Guidestar does not seem to have 2009 numbers for SIAI, or at least I couldn't find those numbers; I just e-mailed a couple people at SIAI asking about that.

That being said, even $500,000, while not trivial, seems to me a pretty small budget.

0timtyler
Sorry, yes, my bad. $200,000 is what they spent on their own salaries.

I don’t understand the problem with “all men are created equal.”

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. . . .

Leaving aside the Creator/God implications of the original, this boils down to a claim about certain “rights” that all people should have and how the ... (read more)

3shokwave
The problem is that it's wrong. All men are not created / did not come into existence equal. Intelligence, genetic risk factors for disease, appearance, etc are all examples of inequalities in the creation or existence of man. It is clear from the text that 'equal' means more than 'equally endowed with unalienable rights'. There are interpretations that are more correct, sure, but these interpretations aren't the natural interpretation of that piece of text, and it's perfectly reasonable to kinesthetically react to that natural interpretation.
4TheOtherDave
Well, yes, if you boil the original quote down to "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are [irrelevant stuff] endowed [somehow or other] with certain unalienable Rights, and [details about rights]" then whatever problems there are with the pieces you cut out (including "all men are created equal") will be difficult to see. As a general rule, if you want to explore the implications of a particular phrase, it really helps to attend to that phrase, not elide over it. Anyway, for my own part, if your understanding of "created equal" here is compatible with some people being born smart, some dumb, some sociopathic, some epileptic, some congenitally ill, and so on and so forth, then there's no problem. But I have a problem with folks, and there are many, who quote that line when their understanding of equality is incompatible with readily observed discrepancies in initial conditions and capabilities among people.
0[anonymous]
edited to add: I see that you're a relatively new poster. Welcome to LessWrong!

The essential problem is that with the (spectacular) deletion of the Forbidden Post, LessWrong turned into the sort of place where posts get disappeared. Those are not good places to be on the Internet. They are places where honesty is devalued and statements of fact must be reviewed for their political nature.

I’ve seen several variations of this expressed about this topic, and it’s interesting to me, because this sort of view is somewhat foreign to me. I wouldn’t say I’m pro-censorship, but as an attorney trained in U.S. law, I think I’ve very much in... (read more)

5[anonymous]
That's not really the crux of the issue (for me, at least, and probably not for others). As David Gerard put it, the banning of Roko's post was a blow to people's expectations, which was why it was so shocking. In other words, it was like discovering that LW wasn't what everyone thought it was (and not in a good way). Note: I personally wouldn't classify the incident as a "disaster," but was still very alarming.

I think you and Louie may be talking about two different kinds of matching donations. The GiveWell post is about an employer matching donations only to a specific charity. Some employers will hold this sort of pledge drive, particularly in the wake of an especially harmful natural disaster.

However, many employers will match donations, up to a certain level, to any qualified (e.g., 501(c)(3)) charity; I believe one can find such employers by searching the database linked by Louie.

0VNKKET
Upvoted for pointing out why people who I agree with were disagreeing with me.

We chose the Loop area for this meet-up because we hoped that residents from both Hyde Park and the North Side (as well as elsewhere) could meet kinda in the middle. If it turns out that no one from Hyde Park is coming, perhaps we could move it a bit further north. Steven and I are coming by train into Union Station, as is, I believe, multifoliaterose, so the Loop is pretty convenient for us. But if the consensus is that further north is more convenient, we are happy to move it. Do any other attendees want to chime in?

2multifoliaterose
I'm coming by train into Union Station but will have plenty of time to travel elsewhere if convenient for others.

Very interesting, and potentially helpful, comment; upvoted.

But it still made me laugh to read this in a bulletpoint about any sort of writing:

Copywriters who can show previous writing that proofs they can do it (I did this).

(emphasis added)

1[anonymous]
del

A not insignificant number of men here are terrified of contributing on this subject, due to their previous discussions. It reached the stage where people making a point that touched on human mating patterns apologised, asked for permission and generally supplicated and grovelled in an attempt to avoid reprisal. It nauseated me.

(emphasis added)

I’m curious what sorts of comments you have in mind here, although I understand if you don’t want to single anyone out specifically. This pattern is not something I have noticed, although it could be that we have ... (read more)

7jimrandomh
Let me add myself as a data point. Having seen how these conversations go, I made a conscious decision to tread very carefully around them, basically only engaging with peripheral issues that look safe. As a result, I have left things unsaid that I think would be relevant, true and interesting, but also controversial. Even when I have something to say that seems safe, I feel like this topic requires me to put so much more effort into verifying that than a blog comment is normally worth, so I don't bother.
4wedrifid
I'm not going to go through and trawl the paper trail but it is something that myself and others have commented on as it happens. I suspect I could find a hit or two via searches for "don't need to ask for permission", "If you think it is relevant then post it", "the line you speak of is imaginary" and almost certainly "quit F@#% grovelling!" More generally I note that you seem to talking about a different issue to the one that my comment was replying to. In the immediate context we were discussing fear and discomfort held by an alleged "a large proportion of the women" and "a not insignificant number of men".

I meant that the religious connotations might not be a reason to use the term if Will is trying to come up with the most accurate term for what he’s describing. To the extent the term is tied up in Christianity, it may not convey meaning in the way Will wants – although the more Will explains how he is using the term, the less problematic this would be. And I agree that what you say suggests an interesting way that Will can appropriate a religious term and make some interesting compare-and-contrast type points.

The words righteous indignation in combination are sufficiently well-recognized as to have their own wikipedia page. The page also says that righteous indignation has overtones of religiosity, which seems like a reason not to use it in your sense . It also says that it is akin to a "sense of injustice," but at least for me, that phrase doesn't have as much resonance.

Edited to add this possibly relevant/interesting link I came across, where David Brin describes self-righteous indignation as addictive.

6Perplexed
Strikes me as exactly the reason you should use it. What you are describing is indignation, it is righteous, and it is counterproductive in both rationalists and less rational folks for pretty much the same reasons.

How would people characterize A Wrinkle in Time? It’s been ages since I’ve read it, but it’s another indisputably (?) classic children’s book. IT and a lot of the good/evil shadow imagery seem somewhat morally simplistic in my memory, but I seem to recall other moral complexity, e.g., with the Mrs. Ws.

I’m also having trouble characterizing Charlie and the Chocolate Factory in terms of moral complexity, but it also doesn't fit in with the other examples in that it lacks a high-stakes struggle. Alice in Wonderland is the other major children's classic fantasy I can think of, but I can't recall what, if any, type of morality it presented.

7TobyBartels
Good question. As I recall, I found the first half much more interesting than the last half. In retrospect, I think that one reason was that the Ws required thought to understand but It did not. (But I don't recall thinking this at the time, so take that with a grain of salt.) The morality in these is farcical, so it's easier to be grey, or just meaningless. (In Tim Burton's recent adaptation of Alice, which has a coherent plot unlike the original, the morality was very black and white.) Now I remember the famous debate in The Horn Book Magazine about the morality in Charlie. I found most of that debate pointless because Charlie's morality is farcical, so why would you expect it to make sense? (Well, the debate wasn't only about morality.) And that reminds me of Ursula Le Guin (who took the anti-Charlie position in the first April 1973 Letter to the Editor at the above link); she wrote the children's fantasy trilogy Earthsea. This has a fairly grey morality, especially the middle book, which is told from the perspective of an antagonist (at first) of the trilogy's main protagonist. Years later, Le Guin wrote a sequel trilogy, which (while earning a mixed reaction from the fans) addressed some of the problems that she saw in the original trilogy; it was even greyer, but it was not marketed to children anymore. In any case, Earthsea is not a counterexample to ewbrownv's claims, because the story does explore ‘unconventional morality, novel social forms, etc’ (and does it well, IMO). Ob MoR: Earthsea has an anti-lifeist moral, but because it is grey, it treats the lifeist position with some respect; the villains are more misguided than evil, and you can sympathise with them. Lifeists still won't be happy with it, especially in the sequels, where gur urebrf qrfgebl gur nsgreyvsr (although once you get to that point, this is pretty well justified). But at least the lifeist position is not dismissed out of hand.

I think such discussion wouldn't necessarily warrant its own top-level post, but I think it would fit well in a new Meta thread. I have been meaning to post such a thread for a while, since there are also a couple of meta topics I would like to discuss, but I haven't gotten around to it.

Good point. Wicked also is an imperfect example because it was written for adults, unlike the examples in the grandparent.

I wonder if there's something different about the way (most) authors write books for children and (some) authors write books for adults - HP, Narnia, Star Wars, and Oz all had young audiences in mind. Most of the more morally complex movies mentioned in the grandparent were for adults. Do any of Stephen King's bestsellers have moral complexity?

I also wonder if those writing and creating works for children (if they do gravitate toward... (read more)

6dclayh
Speaking of media for children, I once read that the MPAA will not certify a film as "G" if it contains if it contains morally ambiguous characters, regardless of the sex, violence, language or drugs. Unfortunately I cannot find an internet citation for this (beyond the talk of "mature themes").
4PhilGoetz
I read an essay by Stephen King where he claimed that his writing was basically socially conservative and morally simplistic - there's always evil in his worlds, but it's always an invader from the outside that must be repelled.
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