All of Astor's Comments + Replies

Astor20

One possible way to make learning a reality could be in building a product with other people: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/i2dNdHrGMT6QgqBFy/what-product-are-you-building

If you build something you would use, then your learning is evaluated by yourself through your goals constantly.

2Dalton Mabery
Agreed. This is how I've taught myself to write code over the past year. Tutorials are interesting and helpful, but I never really learned how everything works together until I built something I truly wanted to use.
Astor20

This could also be a labeling issue because you cannot identify the function of your habits. For example, limiting yourself in different areas could be a way of keeping your mind from being stressed too much. Trying to overcome this could be beneficial in general, but it could also be detrimental to your health. Of course, you could argue that my point leads to some kind of self-preservational self-deception because every questionable behavior could be considered as "helping in another way". But I just want to make sure that not every comfort zone has to b... (read more)

0unoptimal
Good observation. I agree that it's a good idea to first recognize places of growth that you care enough about to want to improve at. Personally, I've noticed that I subconsciously filter areas where I want to grow and areas where I don't.  I sit on the fence when it comes to investing, learning about web3, or deepening my coding knowledge because I don't really know much about them. But since the social and online circles I'm in say it's worth paying attention to, I remind myself that I should probably not limit myself there.   But I don't really care about getting better at some particular video game, for example, so I'll limit myself to gimmicky tactics and never look back. 
Astor40

I thought a solved alignment problem would implicate a constant process of changing the values of the AI in regard to the most recent human values. So if something does not lead to the expected terminal goals of the human (such as enjoyable emotions), then the human can indicate that outcome to the AI and the AI would adjust its own goals accordingly.

5moridinamael
The idea that the AI should defer to the "most recent" human values is an instance of the sort of trap I'm worried about. I suspect we could be led down an incremental path of small value changes in practically any direction, which could terminate in our willing and eager self-extinction or permanent wireheading. But how much tyranny should present-humanity be allowed to have over the choices of future humanity?  I don't think "none" is as wise an answer as it might sound at first. To answer "none" implies a kind of moral relativism that none of us actually hold, and which would make us merely the authors of a process that ultimately destroys everything we currently value. But also, the answer of "complete control by the future by the present" seems obviously wrong, because we will learn about entirely new things worth caring about that we can't predict now, and sometimes it is natural to change what we like. More fundamentally, I think the assumption that there exist "human terminal goals" presumes too much. Specifically, it's an assumption that presumes that our desires, in anticipation and in retrospect, are destined to fundamentally and predictably cohere. I would bet money that this isn't the case.
Astor10

Thank you for explaining it. I really like this concept for stories because it focuses on the psychological aspect of stories as understanding something which sometimes is missing in literary perspectives. How would you differentiate between a personal understanding of a definition and a story? Would you?

My main approach to stories is to define them more abstractly as a rhetorical device for representing change. This allows me to differentiatie between a story (changes), a description (states) and an argument (logical connections of assertions). I suppose,... (read more)

Astor20

I am eager to explore your answer. Why do you think that "stories have the minimum level of internal complexity to explain the complex phenomena we experience"? Is it only because you suppose we internalize phenomena as stories? Do you have any data or studies on that? What's your understanding of a story? Isn't a straightforward description not even less complex because you do not need a full-blown plot to depict something like a chair?

1Jon Garcia
By "story," I mean something like a causal/conceptual map of an event/system/phenomenon, including things like the who, what, when, where, why, and how. At the level of sentences, this would be a map of all the words according to their semantic/syntactic role, like part of speech, with different slots for each role and connections relating them together. At the level of what we would normally call "stories," such a story map would include slots for things like protagonist, antagonist, quest, conflict, plot points, and archetypes, along with their various interactions. In the brain, these story maps/graphs could be implemented as regions of the cortex. Just as some cortical regions have retinotopic or somatotopic maps, more abstract regions may contain maps of conceptual space, along with neural connections between subregions that represent causal, structural, semantic, or social relationships between items in the map. Other brain regions may learn how to traverse these maps in systematic ways, giving rise to things like syntax, story structure, and action planning. I've suggested before (https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/KFbGbTEtHiJnXw5sk/?commentId=PHYKtp7ACkoMf6hLe) that I think these sorts of maps may be key to understanding things like language and consciousness. Stories that can be loaded into and from long-term memory or transferred between minds via language can offer a huge selective advantage, both to individual humans and to groups of humans. I think the recogition, accumulation, and transmission of stories is actually pretty fundamental to how human psychology works.
2jacopo
I notice that while a lot of the answer is formal and well-grounded, "stories have the minimum level of internal complexity to explain the complex phenomena we experience" is itself a story :) Personally, I would say that any gear-level model will have gaps in the understanding, and trying to fill these gaps will require extra modeling which also has gaps, and so on forever. My guess is that part of our brain will constantly try to find the answers and fill the holes, like a small child asking "why x? ...and why y?". So if a more practical part of us wants to stop investigating, it plugs the holes with fuzzy stories which sound like understanding. Obviously, this is also a story, so discount it accordingly...
Astor10

This is the same conclusion and argument I arrived after reading tivelen's comment. But my objection would be that a "momentary fluctuation" generally is not a good moral argument. You could doubt every decision because the time you took to not be considered a fluctuation is arbitrary.

Astor10

I thought about that and also agree with you. But I wanted this room to be thought about as an investigation of personal choice rather than a choice made by others for you. So I opted for the inclusion of this concept. It would be appropriate not to overemphasize this aspect. But it is of course an understandable rejection. Thank you for bringing it to the foreground.

Astor10

This is a thoughtful analysis of possible effects. Thank you for this. I do not want to have such rooms because I do not want to lose anybody ever. But sometimes there is a tendency in humans for quick decisions which would be supported by such an invention. I suppose this thought experiment shows me that blocking access to easy decision making has potential value.

Astor10

Pain can also be defined for non-biological beings. For me it is just a word indicating something undesirable hardwired into your being. And maybe there is something undesirable for everything in the universe. One rather metaphysical concept could be a virtue of inertia (described as the resistance of any physical object to any change in its velocity). So you could argue, if you understand the movement of an entity (more concretely its goals), you could find a way to harm it (with another movement) which would result in "pain" for the entity. This concept ... (read more)

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Astor10

One concept in my moral system relies on the question of how you would respond to permanent retaliation, if you would go rogue. Could you stop an endless attack on your wellbeing because you do things that other people hate? In a world with many extremely intelligent beings this could be very difficult, and even in a world with only you as the bad Super-Einstein it would at least be tiresome (or resource-inefficient), so one super intelligent individual would possibly prefer a situation where they do not need to defend themselves indefinitely. This is kind... (read more)

1[anonymous]
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Astor50

Thank you for organizing this program. I really enjoyed the book reviews. Even though I am still a bit shy in commenting and using votes, these posts encouraged me to consider writing something myself in the future.

2Ruby
I'm so glad!
Astor20

Thank you for your work. I really liked the review for your summary of Problem Solving and your general easy-to-read approach. But I also want to have more studies on this kind of education style so I can ground my understanding on independent observations instead of just ideals. I would definitively read a follow-up on the research regarding the books.

Astor10

I see, thank you for that and thank you for the conversation.

Astor10

Possibly. Is this your interpretation of the paragraphs 304 and 307? But which arguments can he use to assert that, if he argued previously for not knowing definitively? I really enjoy your takes on this. I hope this is also kind of fruitful for your endeavors.

2Chris_Leong
It's my overall impression. He revisits the topic a lot. I don't think he took a position. I just meant that he puts more emphasis on avoiding people mistakenly thinking he is claiming internal experience don't exist than he does on avoiding people mistakenly thinking that he is claiming they do exist. Presumably because he was more often attacked for the former.
Astor10

It is a shame that the book about Sprachdynamik is not translated into other languages. It is also an introduction to the modern Regionalsprachenforschung (science of regional and minority languages). But it is mostly about the concept that there is a synchronization effort between the competency of performing utterances (not just words, but grammar and speech patterns too) on different layers. The micro layer focuses on individual adjustments to the utterances you are hearing and reading each day. The meso layer is about recurring events like work or peer... (read more)

2Chris_Leong
Thanks for the description As far as I could tell from reading the book, Wittgenstein was trying to avoid taking a stance on whether or not these internal sensations exist or not. However, he strongly emphasised that he wasn't claiming they don't exist.
Astor30

I don't know if Wittgenstein was the originator of this concept, but he seems to have made it more prominent.

I suppose the pragmatic maxim is also related to this. I always wondered, if Wittgenstein read Peirce's argument in regard to metaphysics.

I really like your review, but I have to admit that I do not like Wittgenstein's concepts. I am simply not sure how to use them in any meaningful way. Unfortunately this has not changed after reading your text.

For example, for me, J. L. Austin explained the whole "language as use" philosophy way better in "How To ... (read more)

3Chris_Leong
Hmm... I can't seem to find an English description of Sprachdynamik. "They try to find the best possible definition which can be applied to hopefully all but practically most situations" - I guess that often this activity proceeds without a proper understanding of the limitations. For example, if concepts are family resmblences, then we shouldn't be surprised if any definition has a counter-example. "In his argument against private languages I cannot even understand what he means by the word language" - I understand him as claiming that we can't set up an reliable, intersubjective system of discussing these internal experiences as other people can't perform the error checking function that they can in normal language.
Astor10

I really appreciate the work the team is doing and I hope that you will grow to a successful organization. Although I would consider myself a software engineer, I am not seeing myself in the offered roles. Best luck in your endeavors!

Astor10

You are right. Thank you for replying. The results of measurements are objective. I think I conflated objectivity with universal value. What I tried to say was that I am not convinced that tracking your learning progress for a topic in one specific way is always more valuable than in another way because it relies on the goal you want to achieve.

Answer by Astor10

My personal way of measuring my knowledge gain is rather simple, but I am not sure how obvious it is. I write down definitions, arguments and examples of everything I know. Then I change them if I encounter something related (I track these changes with a diff program). And if a concept has grown from a small list of properties to lots of examples with elaborate descriptions, then my knowledge has grown too. Some problems include categorization issues, finding the best way for referencing sources and permanent media management.

For me, skill progress is more... (read more)

4ChristianKl
Everything can be measured objectively. On the other hand some measurements are useful because they give you valuable information and others aren't.
Answer by Astor110

Maybe it is a little unpopular and a bit blunt, but I think one candidate for having the most positive side effects on your life when you do not have it already is money. If you prioritize money without overdoing it, then you can take time off and focus on all the different areas which were previously locked. You cannot afford a nice home? Just buy it now! You do not have good relationships, because you did not have the time or the abilities? Just take your time now or hire someone who helps you! You have bad health? Take a plane and get help from the best... (read more)

Astor40

It's always puzzling me why this is so hard to accept for me. Maybe one aspect could be that work relationships force you to present yourself as best as possible to your employer. And this leads to situations in which you try to signal competence instead of uncertainty, even to yourself.

Astor40

Trying to build your own productivity tools is also very helpful in understanding why you have difficulties in the first place because you reflect upon them while designing your feature set. I really appreciate this post for reminding me of the joy of programming your own solutions.

Astor80

The team is great. Thank you very much!

Astor100

Thus far I really like the stuff you included and I hope that you will continue to improve the site. You did an amazing job. I think the only criticism I have is the loading speed. I used a performance testing site to look into this and nearly 9 seconds for the frontpage seem to be very high, especially if you compare it to GreaterWrong. I understand the feature focus and I support it, but I just wanted to say that I would really appreciate the effort of a performance optimization in the future. I am aware of the complexity of such a request, and I am sure... (read more)

6habryka
Yeah, I agree with this. I've been more annoyed by performance as well lately, and we are pretty close to shipping a variety of performance improvements that I expect will make a significant difference here (and have a few more in the works afterwards, though I think it will be quite a while until we are competitive with greaterwrong performance wise, in large parts due to just fundamentally different architectures).
Astor10

Maybe. But I am not sure. I think defining it like this is more truthful to your reasoning, so that you can better analyze your actions, if something goes wrong. For example, if you are feeling unhappy, but you do not understand why (maybe because you are doing something due to social norms to improve your life through prestige), then references to your feelings can help you to find a better outcome, while "doing the optimal thing" could lead you to believe in self-sacrifice, even if you suffer from it. Maybe it diverges at this point of individualism vs. communitarianism.

1MartinB
I'd say that is caught by "I have integrated motivations" in the chart – subjectively it feels much different from integrated motivations, at least it must for the SDT questionnaires to have predictive power, which they do 👍
Astor30

I see. I am skeptical, if you can justify something not refering back to your own happiness or some kind of satisfying feeling. Why do you want to worry, if not for benefiting you in an extended way (worrying helps you to feel something for others, so that they can feel for you, so that you can feel happy)? But these are just some questions to think about. Do not feel obligated to change anything!

1MartinB
Thanks! Skepticism is exactly what I asked for, so thank you for providing it! I think I agree with you. If we mean happiness in the "at peace" sense, and not the "feeling joy" sense, then happiness is probably my terminal goal. I don't think maximising for joy is possible without trading off a lot of peace, so joy becomes a sub-goal. But thank you! I'll adjust it in my graph. As I see it, at the action level it makes little difference. Do you agree? :-)
Astor*30

In my life happiness stands above all, because well-being and happiness seem to be the same. How do you distinguish between them? Or: Why are maximum energy and maximum meaning not leading to maximum happiness?

4MartinB
Good question! I haven't been very clear on my definition of well-being; to me, it is reacting in the optimal way to life circumstances. That does not mean happiness in all cases – when my family faces hardships, it makes sense for me to worry. Another example is the manic patient in the psych ward. He may be experiencing maximum happiness/joy, but I don't call what he experiences well-being. I completely agree that maximum energy and meaning lead to maximum happiness! It looks ugly in the software I use – not adding the arrows was an entirely pragmatic choice.