All of bentarm's Comments + Replies

bentarm130

My first thought on reading this was that given that people tend to be overconfident in just about every other area of their lives, I would find it exceedingly surprising if it were in fact the case that people's estimates of their own attractiveness was systematically lower than the estimates of others. I notice that there isn't actually a citation for this claim anywhere in the article.

Indeed, having looked for some evidence, this was the first study I could find that attempted to investigate the claim directly: Mirror, mirror on the wall…: self-percepti... (read more)

2Bound_up
Additionally, it was suggested during editing (though I did leave it out) that I talk about the mere-exposure effect, where people like what's familiar. A full understanding of all the factors going into self-perception would include things which contribute to AND detract from a positive self-perception, with mere-exposure and other effects biasing the answer up, and excessive attention to flaws and probably other phenomena biasing the answer down. I might imagine we end up with a "net" self-perception, an amalgamation of all the effects. For some people, that net perception might be biased up. Indeed, while I'm very hesitant to draw too many conclusions from the study you provide from the 1800's, it is POSSIBLE that the majority of people have a net self-perception biased up. Still leaving millions of people, several of whom I know, who could benefit from the ideas in this article, I think. And if I had to guess, in 1878, people, on average, were probably more satisfied with their appearance than we are now.
0SquirrelInHell
OK, first a disclaimer. My model of this is based only on the several people which I'm close enough to to get accurate reports about their private thoughts. I have high confidence in their reports being as true to the internal experiences as they managed to communicate, but the sample is small and might not reflect the "average". Based on this, I make the following bold claim (with moderate confidence): The bias in question works by a sort of a doublethink: the subjects do in fact also have a roughly accurate estimate of their beauty somewhere in their heads, and when asked publicly, they will not report their inner experience of doubt. If you ask a bunch of people who have issues with self-perception of beauty to fill a survey about it, they will tend to answer the questions by taking the "outsider view" (at least, unless the questions in the survey are very cleverly phrased).

Billy has the chance to study abroad in Australia for a year, and he's so mixed up about it, he can barely think straight.

Outside View - can anyone imagine a satisfying ending to this story that doesn't have Billy going to Australia?

0CCC
Yes; it involves Billy studying in some place other than Australia (perhaps continuing with his home institution, perhaps getting an opportunity to go study in France and picking that one instead)
bentarm00

meh, scratch that, I misremembered the quote as "most people disagree with you"...

bentarm00

I'd still bet that the majority of people who have a belief that meets all the criteria you suggest are probably wrong about that belief. For example, I think there's a reasonable case that most priests' religious beliefs would met your criteria, and it's clear that most priests are wrong (as long you you take priest to include holy men from all of the world's religions, it must be true).

I won't speak to the usefulness of the quote as a means for generating useful entrepreneurial ideas.

[This comment is no longer endorsed by its author]Reply
2ChristianKl
I think most priests believed that their God is right before the became priests. That's not an idea that took them a lot of time to discover.
0bentarm
meh, scratch that, I misremembered the quote as "most people disagree with you"...
bentarm00

And conversely, things are allowed to just happen Because the Author Says So in fiction. When watching TV, I'll often ask "why didn't person X just do obvious thing Y which would have solved all of their problems for the rest of this episode?", to which my girlfriend's perfectly valid response is "plot reasons" (TV Tropes calls this the Anthropic Principle)

bentarm50

This seems to be the sort of cue that is much more reliable in fiction than in real life. In real life, not everything that happens has to be foreshadowed.

0bentarm
And conversely, things are allowed to just happen Because the Author Says So in fiction. When watching TV, I'll often ask "why didn't person X just do obvious thing Y which would have solved all of their problems for the rest of this episode?", to which my girlfriend's perfectly valid response is "plot reasons" (TV Tropes calls this the Anthropic Principle)
bentarm20

We're meeting up at 3pm on Sunday in Glasgow. It's not exactly planned as an hpmor wrap party (the organiser didn't even know hpmor was being updated again), but I expect well end up discussing hpmor, and any readers would be welcome.

bentarm10

It's not at all obvious to me that the failure mode of not looking for a better move when you've found a good one is more common than the failure mode of spending too long looking for a better move when you've found a good one - in general, I think the consensus is that people who are willing to satisfice actually end up happier with their final decisions than people who spend too long maximising, but I agree that this doesn't apply in all areas, and that there are likely times when this would be useful advice.

In the particular example I gave, if you've al... (read more)

1dxu
Hm... I'm not sure you're interpreting me all that charitably. You keep on mentioning a dichotomy between satisficing and maximizing, for instance, as if you think I'm advocating maximizing as the better option, but really, that's not what I'm saying at all! I'm saying that regardless of whether you have a policy of satisficing or maximizing, both methods benefit from additional time spent thinking. Good satisficing =/= stopping at the first solution you see. This is especially common in programming, I find, where you generally aren't a time limit (or at least, not a "sensitive" time limit in the sense that fifteen extra minutes will be significant), and yet people are often willing to settle for the first "working" solution they see, even though a little extra effort could have bought them a moderate-to-large increase in efficiency. You can consciously decide "I want to satisfice here, not maximize," but if you have a policy of stopping at the first "acceptable" solution, you'll miss a lot of stuff. I'm not saying satisficing is bad, or even that satisficing isn't as good an option as maximizing; I'm saying that even when satisficing, you should still extend your search depth by a small amount to ensure you aren't missing anything. (And I'm speaking from real life experience here when I say that yes, that is a common failure mode.) In terms of the chess analogy (which incidentally I feel is getting somewhat stretched, but whatever), I note that you only mention options that are very extreme--things like losing rooks, queens, or getting checkmated, etc. Often, chess is more complicated than that. Should you move your knight to an outpost in the center of the board, or develop your bishop to a more active square? Should you castle, moving your king to safety, or should you try and recoup a lost pawn first? These are situations in which the "right" move isn't at all obvious, and if you spot a single "good" move, you have no easy way of knowing if there's not a better
bentarm110
Lasker may have said this, but it also pre-dates him: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmanuel_Lasker#Quotations

It's also not always good advice. Sometimes you should just satisfice. Chess is often one of these times, as you have a clock. If you see something that wins a rook, and spend the rest of your time trying to win a queen, you're not going to win the game.

9dxu
Of course it isn't. But I don't think that's a very good standard to be holding most forms of advice to. Very little advice is always good advice; nearly all sayings have exceptions. The fact is, however, that Lasker's (sort of Lasker's, anyway) quotation is useful most of the time, both in chess and out of chess (since unless you're playing a blitz game, you're likely to have plenty of time to think), and for a rationality quote, that suffices.
0[anonymous]
Of course it isn't. But I don't think that's a very good standard to be holding most forms of advice to. Very little advice is always good advice; nearly all sayings have exceptions. The fact is, however, that Lasker's (sort of) quotation is useful most of the time, both in chess and out of chess (since unless you're playing a blitz game, you're likely to have plenty of time to think), and for a rationality quote, that suffices.
bentarm100

Serious question - why do you (either CFAR as an organisation or Anna in particular) think in-person workshops are more effective than, eg, writing a book, or making a mooc-style series of online lessons for teaching this stuff? Is it actually more about network building than the content of the workshops themselves? Do you not understand how to teach well enough to be able to do it in video format? Videos are inherently less profitable?

I don't speak for CFAR, but I believe that they wish to develop their product further before actually taking the time to write extensively about it, because the techniques are still being under active development and there's no point in writing a lot about something that may change drastically the next day.

It's also true that a large part of the benefit of the workshops comes from interacting with other participants and instructors and getting immediate feedback, as well as from becoming a part of the community.

bentarm00

We will be organising another one relatively soon. If you pm me your email address, I'll include you in hype discussion

bentarm20

Just to be absolutely explicit, if you can't come, but would be interested in coming to a future meet up in Glasgow, please post here so we know you exist.

0stellartux
I saw this before the meeting happened but couldn't get off work on such short notice, but would be interested in future meetups.
1technicalities
Hi, Just saw this, but will sadly miss it. Would be very interested in future meetups.
bentarm400

Did the survey. I don't know what cisgender means, but I assume that's me, as I'm definitely not transgender...

7TheOtherDave
It means experiencing little or no conflict between the gender you're generally treated as, the anatomy of your body, and the gender you regard yourself as. "Gender normative" is another phrase that sometimes gets used. (More often, no phrase at all gets used and it's treated as an unmarked case... most people understand "male" to mean cis-male, for example.) It is perhaps worth noting that the term is treated as a tribal signifier on much of the Internet... people who describe themselves as "cisgender" are seen as expressing social alignment with transgender people, which is seen as a "left" position when viewed in U.S. left-right partisan terms. The reasoning here is that being an unmarked case is a form of social power, so by explicitly marking what would otherwise be an unmarked case, the speaker is... well, I'm not sure what, exactly. Calling attention to that power, I guess. Which in this context is understood as aligning with the relatively powerless, though in other contexts (e.g., white people describing themselves as "white") the reverse is true.
3SteveReilly
Yeah, "cis-" (on this side of) is the opposite of "trans-" (across or on the other side of). So if you're currently the same sex as the one you were born as, you're cisgnder.
bentarm00

The Revelation Principle feels like one of those results that flip flops between trivially obvious and absurdly impossible... I'm currently in an "absurdly powerful" frame of mind.

I guess the principle is mostly useful for impossibility results? Given an arbitrary mechanism, will you usually be able to decompose it to find the associated incentive compatible mechanism?

2badger
I'm on board with "absurdly powerful". It underlies the bulk of mechanism design, to the point my advisor complains we've confused it with the entirety of mechanism design. The principle gives us the entire set of possible outcomes for some solution concept like dominant-strategy equilibrium or Bayes-Nash equilibrium. It works for any search over the set of outcomes, whether that leads to an impossibility result or a constructive result like identifying the revenue-optimal auction. Given an arbitrary mechanism, it's easy (in principle) to find the associated IC direct mechanism(s). The mechanism defines a game, so we solve the game and find the equilibrium outcomes for each type profile. Once we've found that, the IC direct mechanism just assigns the equilibrium outcome directly. For instance, if everyone's equilibrium strategy in a pay-your-bid/first-price auction was to bid 90% of their value, the direct mechanism assigns the item to the person with the highest value and charges them 90% of their value. Since a game can have multiple equilibria, we have one IC mechanism per outcome. The revelation principle can't answer questions like "Is there a mechanism where every equilibrium (as opposed to some equilibrium) gives a particular outcome?"
bentarm20

I'm not sure I get this - If you're not allowed to compare apples to oranges, how do you decide which to eat? Is that the point this quote is trying to make?

3hyporational
It's a common English expression that has nothing to do with food.
bentarm40

If only one flower, we seek for nothing farther- what then if two or three, or more? Each successive one is multiple evidence- proof not added to proof,

Hard to tell out of context, but is this claiming that each successive flower is independent evidence? In general, it feels like the reasoner is missing some dependency relationships between bits of evidence here.

0Alejandro1
The story does not make clear whether Beauvais had seen the arrangement of flowers on the living Marie's hat, or just knew that she used to wear these approximate kind of flowers. If the former, finding all the flowers together is certainly much stronger evidence that the corpse is Marie than finding just one (even though they are not strictly independent). If the latter, then Dupin's reasoning indeed seems fallacious on this particular point, though not on the more general one of whether the identification of the corpse is beyond reasonable doubt.
bentarm-10

I was about 80% sure that 1159 was not prime, based on reading that sentence. It took me <1 minute to confirm this. I can totally be more than 99.99% sure of the primality of any given four-digit number.

In fact, those odds suggest that I'd expect to make one mistake with probability >0.5 if I were to go through a list of all the numbers below 10,000 and classify them as prime or not prime. I think this is ridiculous. I'm quite willing to take a bet at 100 to 1 odds that I can produce an exhaustive list of all the prime numbers below 1,000,000 (which contains no composite numbers), if anyone's willing to stump up at least $10 for the other side of the bet.

6Gurkenglas
You can only simply exponentiate the chance of success if it doesn't correlate over multiple repetitions. I would say that if the list of primes below 10^6 you were referencing has at least one error in the first 10^5, it would be more likely to be faulty later, and vice versa, which means that your gut estimates on the two scales might be noncontradictory.
bentarm20

To be honest, no. There really isn't much more to it than is contained in the sixteen words above, or listening to one of Kaufman's TedX talks.

bentarm240

The First 20 Hours (Josh Kaufman):

Practice something for 20 hours, and you'll learn a lot. Don't worry about feeling stupid/clumsy.

0[anonymous]
would your recommend this book overall?
bentarm00

How about this as a counter-example? This guy essentially got into Harvard because of one accident with a plagiarised essay when he was a kid (at least, that's the way he tells his story), and is now a member of faculty at Chicago. I think life outcomes might be more path-dependent than we like to admit.

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/504/how-i-got-into-college

2NancyLebovitz
The second half of his story has a fair amount of detail, and implies very strongly that he was conspicuously intelligent and the first high school he was at wasn't all that bad for students. Unfortunately, the transcript includes that his wife thinks he has a secret to happiness by controlling his attitude towards events, but doesn't go into detail. http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/504/transcript
bentarm20

One thing that's unambiguous is that many ambitious high schoolers believe that where they go to college matters a great deal. My post is intended to address this audience.

It's possible that I misread, but I interpreted Swimmer963's point as saying exactly this - it really doesn't matter what you do in high school, as long as you get into the college you're aiming to get into. If this is what she meant, I probably agree - I don't think there is any one-semester high school course which can't be entirely learnt by a reasonably bright student in about 1 week of dedicated personal study.

1Swimmer963 (Miranda Dixon-Luinenburg)
That's a bit my point, but not entirely. I think that 10 or 20 years later, the specifics of what high schoolers did will almost never matter. (General high school work ethic and direction/ambition in life likely does matter, if only because it will correlate, in most people, with adult work ethic and ambition). To a lesser degree, 10 or 20 years down the road, it probably doesn't matter whether a student got into their top choice or second-or-third choice college. College admissions depend on a lot of random factors, like whether you were sick on the day of a high school exam worth 40% of your grade, and more time passing flattens out this randomness. Students with good work ethic and a strong direction in life will probably end up where they want to be anyway, once 10-20 years have passed. Students who don't really know what they want to do still won't know in 10 years even if they went to a prestigious college. Good work ethic and ambition is correlated with getting into prestigious colleges, but I would argue that there's less causation there than this article seems to imply. This is just my impression, though, and I'm generally not that ambitious. It might be different for people at higher level of driven-ness and/or with different, more academic-based goals. Vaniver: I said "it surprises me how much..." because I expect to agree with most LW posts, and I'm slightly surprised every time I don't agree. It's a good surprise.
0JonahS
Can you say where your impression comes from?
bentarm90

Does anyone think they could win as the AI if the logs were going to be published? (assume anonymity for the AI player, but not for the gatekeeper)

bentarm70

The point being made by Gradgrind is much more basic: children should focus on Fact over Fancy.

ah, ok. I interpreted it as a preference for teaching Fact rather than Theory.

7Vaniver
It looks to me like you're making the sophisticated point that some facts vary in usefulness. I agree. The point being made by Gradgrind is much more basic: children should focus on Fact over Fancy. As an example, he refuses to teach his children fairy tales, deciding that they should learn science instead. (Unfortunately, Dickens presents science as dull collections in cabinets, and so the children are rather put out by this.)
bentarm00

Re inbox zero: this paper seems to suggest it's a waste of time (and my experience concurs). How complicated is your folder structure?

2Peter Wildeford
My folder system is not complicated. It's just three folders -- action, waiting, and reference. I suppose that if I had enough emails on one topic, though, I might make an additional folder. Anecdotally, it's saved me a lot a time.
3lukstafi
Set up automatic filters.
3Vaniver
I think that paper is about something slightly different. What peter_hurford is recommending is not "sort your emails so you can find them again easily later" as "sort your emails so that you read them in the right context." For example, gmail now has its own automatic sorting / folders system that I've found tremendously useful. I don't use it to find listserv emails separately from Amazon shipping updates- if I'm looking for a particular email, I use search. What I do use it for is only paying attention to certain classes of email at the right times. Every day I check the "Updates" folder, see shipping emails from Amazon and Kickstarter updates, and archive them. When I have downtime for reading forum posts, I check the Forums tab. But when someone important emails me about something important, it goes straight into my inbox and my phone beeps at me.
bentarm-10

Right - but did anyone not know that?

Nornagest110

Facts which seem obvious in retrospect are often less salient than they appear, outside of their native contexts. If I'd been asked to describe humans as computational systems before reading the ancestor, pen and paper probably wouldn't be one of the things I'd have taken into account.

bentarm30

Am I missing something? Why is this quote so popular? Is there something more to it than "you can do harder sums with a pencil and paper than you can in your head"? Or, I guess "writing stuff down is sometimes useful".

1Ishaan
Yes. The paper is about the importance of environmental scaffolding on behavior. One of the topics it touches on is akrasia in college students, and it hypothesizes that this is because they lost their usual scaffolding - the routine of their homes, their parents, etc. The main point is that models of the human mind need to take into account the extent to which humans rely on external objects for computation. Paper and pencil are an extreme example of this. The quote itself has further implications. In my opinion, this is the single most important technological development. As far as I'm concerned, the "Singularity" began when humans began using things other than their brains to store and process information. That was the beginning of the intelligence explosion, that was the first time we started doing something qualitatively different. Everyone realizes that writing stuff down is useful, but since we do it all the time not everyone realizes what a big deal it is.. The important insight is that to write is to make the piece of paper a component of your memory and processing power.
5Nornagest
Pencil and paper is far more reliable than your native memory, and also gives you a way to work on more than seven or so objects at once. Either one would expand your capabilities significantly. Taken together they're huge, at least when you're working with things that natural selection hasn't optimized you for (i.e. yes for abstract math; not so much for facial recognition).
bentarm90

I imagine this isn't your intention, but this does read a lot like "I think external review like AI experts would be good, but if we do that review, and don't liek the results, it's because we picked the wrong AI experts."

lukeprog140

Here are two things we want from an external review:

  1. MIRI wants to learn more about whether its basic assumptions and their apparent strategic implications are sound.
  2. Outsiders of various kinds want to learn more about whether MIRI is a reasonable thing to support and emulate.

These two groups (MIRI & outsiders) have wildly different information about risks from AI, and are thus in different positions with respect to how they should respond to external reviews of MIRI's core assumptions.

To illustrate the point, consider two actual events of direct or... (read more)

bentarm110

If you want smart kids like the rich folk, you should raise your kids like the rich folk raise their kids.

Is there any reason to believe this is true? I would guess Judith Harris would say no, and she's spent a lot more time thinking about this than I have.

0Eugine_Nier
Well, it's clear that propensity to acquire wealth isn't purely genetic.
bentarm50

The vast majority of people that show 90% or more correlation with me are concentrated in 2 areas of the world, New York city and California (SF Bay in particular), this is one of the indicators I choose for where I'll try to live.

Maybe you checked, but is it possible that the vast majority of OK Cupid users overall are in SF or NYC? This wouldn't surprise me at all.

2diegocaleiro
Had not checked. Easier way to check was to look for my enemies. (there is an enemy match) Seems that I'll have a bad bad time in Greece, India, Southeast Asia, Florida and all those american states that when you are from outside the USA, you have no idea where they are. I do have enemies in California, so I'm guessing Cali does indeed have many cupid people. None of them is the Bay Area though.
bentarm30

Does Oz already know that he's a werewolf at this point? That would seem to bring "vampires exist" into the realm of plausible hypotheses.

bentarm-10

Have you read the book?

My suspicion is that over 90% of it's worth is in an additional rule, which isn't one of these: "commit to practising something for 20 hours before starting to apply these principles". My guess - 20 hours of dedicated practice is just way longer than people tend to think it is, and you'd be surprised how much you learn in 20 hours without making an effort to do any of the rest of the 10 things.

0James_Miller
Yes I did read the book.
bentarm00

The detrimental commute is driving

Is this actually true? I asked on this month's open thread, but didn't get a response. Has it been properly studied?

0Dr_Manhattan
I'm sorry I might have overstated my case a bit. Crowded subway commute is not fun either. My basic point is "it depends" and usually enough value rides on these decisions to look into details. Long car commutes generally suck (until we go driverless). Trains can be good or bad.
bentarm150

Will you able to be able to live near where you work in London? In Glasgow, you will almost certainly be able to afford to live in a nice place in the city centre where you can walk to work. People usually underestimate how much effect a long commute will have on their happiness (see e.g. here).

Also, you might consider trying this. If you're still unsure, chances are the expected value of the two options is pretty close, and you shouldn't worry too much about how you make the decision.

Disclaimer: I am in Glasgow, and would like to increase the population o... (read more)

2cjb230
I came to Glasgow, but forgot about this thread... Do you want to do a micro-meetup? I'm cjamesb230@googlemail.com, or james.barton14 on Skype.
6John_Maxwell
I've started studying Anki cards on my commute, which seems to be working well.
bentarm00

this comment on the recent Reddit thread about intellectual jokes goes one better (and actually made me laugh out loud the first time I read it).

bentarm50

Apologies, I should have made this clearer (and will probably edit the original to do so). Commuting is terrible for the happiness of the commuter. The rest of the post should be interpreted in light of this.

As for the Freakonomics research - it seems quite implausible that the marginal commuter has a bigger impact by taking transit rather than a car (I seem to remember listening to an episode of Freakonomics radio about this discussion, and being disappointed by the lack of marginal analysis).

bentarm220

So, everyone agrees that commuting is terrible for the happiness of the commuter. One thing I've struggled to find much evidence about is how much the method of commute matters. If I get to commute to work in a chauffeur driven limo, is that better than driving myself? What if I live a 10 minute drive/45 minute walk from work, am I better off walking? How does public transport compare to driving?

I suspect the majority of these studies are done in US cities, so mostly cover people who drive to work (with maybe a minority who use transit). I've come across ... (read more)

1Camaragon
I download loads of music and audiobook and books (though it's more bothersome to read while moving) and listen to them on my commute to work, it takes me around 45 minutes commute to get to work via train system and it takes the same time to get back home. Doing this, I totally don't mind the commute. Look forward to it even since It was the only time I get to read or listen to anything.
7ChristianKl
I think it entirely depends on what you do during your commute. A lot of drivers who drive during rush hour feel stress because they get annoyed at the behavior of other drivers. That's terrible for the happiness of the commuter. Traveling via public transport also gives you plenty of opportunities to get upset over other people. It provides you the opportunity to get upset if the bus comes a bit late. If you travel via public transport you can do tasks like reading a book that you can't do while driving a car or cycling.
4niceguyanon
Does anyone else experience the phenomenon of perceiving the duration of a commute to be shorter when the distance is shorter? For example, it feels like it takes less time or is more enjoyable to walk 3/4 mile in 15 minutes than to travel a few miles by subway in 15 minutes. I think its because being close in proximity makes me feel like "Hey I'm basically there already" where as traveling a few miles makes me think "I'm not even in the same neighborhood yet" even though both of these take me the same amount of time.
0aelephant
Better in what way? According to Freakonomics, public transportation may actually be less efficient than driving: http://www.freakonomics.com/2012/11/07/can-mass-transit-save-the-environment-right-wing-or-left-wing-heres-a-post-everybody-can-hate/
bentarm00

Is this even possible? How would someone know that a comment has been downvoted once it had been voted back up to 0 points?

-1Eugine_Nier
Hover your mouse over the "n points" text.
bentarm60

Or more costly if you factor in the aggravation of dealing with the insurance company

Presumably if that was the case, she wouldn't have bought insurance...

bentarm30

So, since basically everyone in the world is overconfident, you can make them better calibrated just by making them come up with an interval and then doubling it.

What I've never really got is how you become accurately calibrated at the long tails. Are there really people who can consistently give both 90% and 95% confidence intervals? To me those both just feel like "really likely", and the higher the granularity, the harder it gets - note that a 98% confidence interval should probably be twice as wide as a 95% confidence interval. Are there people who have truly internalised this?

bentarm30

I personally like this two player calibration game, which I was introduced to by Paul Christiano at a meetup a couple of years ago:

  1. think of an unknown quantity (What year was the first woman elected to the US Congress?)
  2. Player 1 comes up with a 50% confidence interval (I guess, technically, this is a credible interval...).
  3. Player 2 chooses whether they want to take the "in" or the "out" side of the bet.

There's no need to choose a minimum width confidence interval (is there a technical term for that?) e.g. "before 1920" wo... (read more)

bentarm00

Not sure, as I'm not a native speaker of another language, but do most other languages use the same word for "should" in all three of those sentences? If not, it seems highly likely that it's just some sort of linguistic accident. If so, there might be something interesting worth pursuing.

0Viliam_Bur
I suppose yes (data points: Slovak, Esperanto). Seems to me that although the reasoning why anyone "should" do the thing is different in different cases, the expected outcome is the same -- the sentence is spoken to create a social pressure on the listener, to increase the probability that the listener will do the thing. Thus, the presssure on other person's behavior seems like the essense of "shouldness", not the justification. (Even the special case of "I should" is probably applying the social rules to oneself, either to remind oneself that other people would want them to do that, or simply to re-use the existing mechanism of altering a person's behavior.)
bentarm30

The specific project I was evaluating had only gotten $800,000 out of the maximum $2m. Its strategy was to purchase the male students iPod Touches, the female students makeovers, manicures, and pedicures at a local beauty parlor, and all students were offered an additional iPod Touch or Makeover, respectively, if they passed the exam at the end of the current year.... only 25% (14/56) of the students targeted by the program had failed the reading exam in the first place.

$800,000/56 students = $14,000 per student. Those are some expensive iPod touches!

See this part of the post:

I described in rigorous detail everything the man had done wrong, put in a strong recommendation to not award him grant money in the future, and suggested that some sort of corruption investigation be conducted to see if he had committed any crimes (23 iPods + 23 Makeovers does not total to $800,000, after all).

bentarm90

This is definitely true. General class of examples: almost any combinatorial problem ever. Concrete example: the Four Colour Theorem

1MikeDobbs
Yes! Combinatorics problems are a perfect example of this. Trying to work out the probability of being dealt a particular hand in poker can be very difficult (for certain hands) until you correctly formulate the question- at which point the calculations are trivial : )
bentarm00

Thanks, I was not trying the right combination of keywords.

bentarm00

(One could argue that these questions should probably be ignored and not investigated in depth - to paraphrase Teller, often magic is simply putting in more effort than any sane person would - but nevertheless, this is how things work for me.)

I can't find a source for this quote (and if it's from a longer interview, I think I'd probably like to read it), possibly because I'm not picking the right words to Google. Do you have a citation?

7ESRogs
http://www.esquire.com/print-this/teller-magician-interview-1012?page=all

Googling "teller magic sane" turned up this interview including the quote:

You will be fooled by a trick if it involves more time, money and practice than you (or any other sane onlooker) would be willing to invest.

3arundelo
http://lesswrong.com/lw/bdo/rationality_quotes_april_2012/68hu?context=1#comments
bentarm30

...that's about the last situation in which I'd expect people to rely on God

Does this cause you to doubt the veracity of the claim in the parent, or to update towards your model of what people rely on God for being wrong? I guess it should probably be both, to some extent. It's just not really clear from your post which you're doing.

1A1987dM
Mostly the latter, as per Hanlon's razor.
bentarm00

I notice that http://www.miri.org is very definitely not a placeholder for a new Singularity Institute page. Have you managed to acquire it?

(miri.com seems as though it should be available, but not exactly entirely appropriate. Maybe better than nothing).

2Kaj_Sotala
Nope.
bentarm90

My experience with the GJP suggests that it's not. Some people there, for instance, are on record as assigning a 75% probability to the proposition "The number of registered Syrian conflict refugees reported by the UNHCR will exceed 250,000 at any point before 1 April 2013".

I am a registered participant in one of the Good Judgement Project teams. I have literally no idea what my estimates of the probabilities are for quite a few of the events for which I have 'current' predictions. Depending on what you mean by 'some people', you might just be picking up on the fact that some people just don't care as much about the accuracy of their predictions on GJP as you do.

1Morendil
Agreed. Insofar as GJP is a contest, and the objective is to win, my remarks should be read with the implied proviso "assuming you care about winning". In the prelude to the post where I discuss my GJP participation in more detail I used an analogy with playing Poker. I acknowledge that some people play Poker for the thrill of the game, and don't actually mind losing their money - and there are variable levels of motivation all the way up to dedicated players.
bentarm240

I don't think it is an accurate reflection of the community. It certainly doesn't reflect my experience with the LW communities in Toronto and Waterloo.

It is also not an accurate depiction of the community in London or Edinburgh (UK). However, I think it is pretty close to exactly what I would expect a tabloid summary of the Berkeley community to look like, based on my personal experience. The communities in Berkeley and NY really are massively different in kind to those pretty much anywhere else in the world (again, from personal experience).

And, as Kevin says, it is remarkably nice - they could have used exactly the same content to write a much more damning piece.

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