All of Caravelle's Comments + Replies

Caravelle400

This.

I don't know if latent homosexuality in homophobes is the best example, but I've definitely seen it in myself. I will sometimes behave in certain ways, for motives I find perfectly virtuous or justified, and it is only by analysing my behaviour post-hoc that I realize it isn't consistent with the motives I thought I had - but it is consistent with much more selfish motives.

I think the example that most shocked me was back when I played an online RPG, and organised an action in a newly-coded environment. I and others on my team noticed an unexpected co... (read more)

1quwgri
You seem like a very honest and friendly person, as do most of the people in this thread. I would just say, "What difference does it make whether it's a bug or a feature? Maybe the admins themselves haven't agreed on this. Maybe some admins think it's a bug, and some admins think it's a feature. It's a gray area. But in any case, I'd rather not draw the admins' attention to what's going on, because then their opinion might be determined in a way that's not favorable to us. We're not breaking any rules while this is a gray area. But our actions will become a violation of the rules if the gray area is no longer a gray area." I have the opposite opinion regarding human motives. Ten years ago, I was thinking about this while corresponding with an acquaintance. I came to this conclusion: "Maybe what she tells me about her relationship with her boyfriend is a false representation. But what I say and think can also be a false representation. If we are all false representations, then what is truth and what is false? It would be better for me, as a liar and as an incarnate lie, to support my own kind. At least it would be an act of solidarity."

That doesn't help much. If people were told they were going to be murdered in a painless way (or something not particularly painful - for example, a shot for someone who isn't afraid of needles and has no problem getting vaccinated) most would consider this a threat and would try to avoid it.

I think most people's practical attitude towards death is a bit like Syrio Forel from Game of Thrones - "not today". We learn to accept that we'll die someday, we might even be okay with it, but we prefer to have it happen as far in the future as we can manag... (read more)

1boilingsambar
I was just pointing to the opinion that, not everyone who tries to escape from death are actually afraid of death per se. They might have other reasons.
2MixedNuts
Should be noted that "tomorrow" stands in for "in enough time that we operate in Far mode when thinking about it", as opposed to actual tomorrow, when we very much don't want to die. Come to think of it, a lot of people are all "Yay, death!" in Far mode (I'm looking at you, Epictetus), but much fewer in Near mode (though those who do are famous). Anecdotal evidence: I was born without an aversion for death in principle, was surprised by sad funerals, thought it was mostly signalling (and selfish mourning for lost company), was utterly baffled by obviously sincere death-bashers. I've met a few other people like that, too. Yet we (except some of the few I met in history books) have normal conservation reflexes. There's no pressure to want to live in Far mode (in an environment without cryonics and smoking habits, anyway), and there's pressure to say "I don't care about death, I only care about $ideal which I will never compromise" (hat tip Katja Grace).

"Surely they can't have formed a publishing empire, and survived to the point where they could hire assistants, solely by doing what 'the proper God-appointed authorities' told them to do? "

Dunno; I wouldn't underestimate to what extent plain instinct can make one behave in a rational-like manner even though one's beliefs aren't rational. How those instincts are rationalized post-hoc, if they're rationalized at all, isn't that relevant.

"Perhaps we could tell the authors to imagine in detail what they would see if (or when) God shows them how... (read more)

I've never worked in a soup kitchen (although I should, because I think I might enjoy it) but I've found that often when I voluntarily engage in a social and purely beneficial activity I enjoy myself enormously. There's a kind of comraderie going on, it's like the pleasure of social interaction is combining with the pleasure of Helping in just the right ways.

I don't expect it would work all the time, or for everyone. And I usually feel differently when I'm forced to do something instead of volunteering. Still, it could be a factor in why some people enjoy that sort of thing.

I have a question. This article suggests that for a given utility function there is one single charity that is best and that's the one one should give money to. That looks a bit problematic to me - for example, if everyone invests in malaria nets because that's the single one that saves most lives, then nobody is investing in any other kind of charity, but shouldn't those things get done too ?

We can get around this by considering that the efficiency function varies with time - for example, once everybody gives their money to buy nets the marginal cost of e... (read more)

a_gramsci120

What happens in that situation is that people continue to invest in malaria nets, so much that the marginal cost of saving another life goes from say, $500 to $700, and for $600 dollars you can dig a well, saving another persons life. In essence, you donate to the most efficient charity until that money has caused the charity to have to pay more to save lives, and therefore stops being the most efficient charity.

Hello all !

I'm a twenty-seven years old student doing a PhD in vegetation dynamics. I've been interested in science since forever, in skepticism and rationality per se for the last few years, and I was linked to LessWrong only a few months ago and was blown away. I'm frankly disconcerted by how every single internet argument I've gotten into since has involved invoking rationality and using various bits of LessWrong vocabulary, I think the last time I absorbed a worldview that fast was from reading "How the Mind Works", lo these many years ago. S... (read more)

2naritai
Welcome to LessWrong!

Hi ! Yep, it's the same me, thanks for the welcome !

I don't know if I'd call integrating knowledge THE root problem of Left Behind, which has many root problems, and a lack of integration strikes me as too high-level and widespread among humans to qualify as [i]root[/i] per se...

But yeah, good illustration of the principle :-)

(and thanks for the welcome link, I'd somehow missed that page)

0hairyfigment
Well, I was trying to think of a general rule that L&J could follow in order to repair their worldview. (Obviously we should consider following this rule as well, if we can find one.) I came up with, 'Ask how all the facts, as you see them, fit together.' We could probably find a better version. Eliezer suggests the rule, 'Try to find the thought that hurts the most,' or loosely paraphrased, 'Ask what the Sorting Hat from Methods of Rationality would tell you.' But for L&J such an imaginary conversation would likely end with the phrase, 'Get behind me, Satan!' They do not expect to have the brains to see how their facts fit together, considering this the province of God. And yet I feel like they must have some experience with judging beliefs successfully. Surely they can't have formed a publishing empire, and survived to the point where they could hire assistants, solely by doing what 'the proper God-appointed authorities' told them to do? (Though they do lump airplane pilots and scientists together as 'practical authorities.' And we know that more belief in the wisdom of 'traditional authority' correlates with more gullibility about any claim the authorities in question have not condemned -- see Chapter 3 here. Hmm.) So I want to say that a personalized version of my rule would have a better effect than imagining criticisms directly. Perhaps we could tell the authors to imagine in detail what they would see if (or when) God shows them how all their facts fit together, and exactly how this would allow them to answer any and all objections. This seems connected with the act of imagining a paradise you would actually prefer to Reedspacer's Lower Bound as a long-term home. Both involve the rule, 'Ask how it would actually work given what you know about people/yourself.' You might think that authors who wrote about the kingdom Jesus will establish on Earth wouldn't need to hear these rules. You'd be wrong. :-)

I can see the objection there however, partly because I sort of have this issue. I've never been attacked, or mugged, or generally made to feel genuinely unsafe - those few incidents that have unsettled me have affected me far less than the social pressure I've felt to feel unsafe - people telling me "are you sure you want to walk home alone ?", or "don't forget to lock the door at all times !".

I fight against that social pressure. I don't WANT the limitations and stress that come with being afraid, and the lower opinion it implies I sh... (read more)

When I was a kid I had this book called "Thinking Physics", which was basically a book of multiple choice physics questions (such as "an elephant and a feather are falling, which one experiences more air resistance ?", or "Kepler and Galileo made telescopes around the same time and Kepler's was adopted widely, why ?") aimed to point out where our natural instincts or presuppositions go against how physics actually work, and explaining, well, how physics actually work.

Really, the simple idea that physics are a habit of thought ... (read more)

1hairyfigment
Welcome to Less Wrong! Do you also post at Slacktivist, where Fred dissects the Left Behind series? If so, you might appreciate this: I think the part about integrating knowledge into your view of the world gets at the root problem with Left Behind. If we assume those books represent the authors' views in some way, then the authors seem to have no concept of facts fitting together. So for example it doesn't matter that Jesus lies about the characters' actions, and their effect on his own, while using mind control to make those characters give the "right" responses to his canned speech. It only matters that the words come from the Bible. This makes the biblical "prediction" technically true. The Bible itself is reliable because of biblical inerrancy, and for no other reason -- God is not always honest in other contexts.

I've been thinking of this question lately, and while I agree with the main thrust of your article, I don't think that giving all possible objections is always possible (it can get really long, and sometimes there are thematic issues). Which is why I think multiple people responding tends to be a good thing.

But more to the point, I don't think I agree that RA is moving the goalposts. Because really, every position has many arguments pro or con where even if just one is demolished the position can survive off the others. I think the arguing technique that r... (read more)