All of Dentin's Comments + Replies

Dentin75

My belief is that it's primarily the voting system that causes this. (Not the electoral college; rather the whole 'first past the post' style of voting.) We see scissors presidents because that's the winning strategy.

I suspect that other more sophisticated voting systems (even just ranked choice!) would do better. No voting system is perfect, but 'first past the post' is particularly pathological.

Answer by Dentin50

This strikes me as a question with a concrete and unambiguous answer: difference exists because of the Pauli Exclusion Principle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauli_exclusion_principle

Nothing more is required.

1Roman Malov
So in the universe with only bosons (so Pauli principle doesn't apply), everything is the Same? When I imagine a room full of photons, I see a lot of things that can be Different. For example, the coordinates of photons, wavelength, polarization, their number. Or are you saying that Pauli principle is sufficient, but not necessary?
Dentin60

They are hard to fix, but you quickly realize that they're all one-off problems and whatever solution you come up with for one person isn't going to work for anyone else.

If you can even find a solution.

The problems are too hard, the feedback is too weak, and the solutions never generalize. All of those are the opposite of what I'd prefer out of my problems.

Dentin20

I do the majority of these, and converged on them independently over the course of decades. I ended up doing most of these because they made my life better.

Dentin50

Complete newbie question: is it possible to construct a version of these models that uses a 3 dimensional vector, instead of the 768 dimensional vector?

From the sound of it, the 768 dimensional vector is basically a constant linear transform of the three PCA components. Can we just declare the linear transform to be a constant array, and only train up the three components that appear to be the most needed? Eg generate the 768 from the PCA?

0AdamYedidia
I think you could, but you'd be missing out on the 9% (for gpt2-small) of the variance that isn't in one of those three dimensions, so you might degrade your performance.
4Nathaniel Monson
I think you probably could do that, but you'd be restricting yourself to something that might work marginally worse than whatever would otherwise be found by gradient descent. Also, the more important part of the 768 dimensional vector which actually gets processed is the token embeddings. If you believe that neural nets store things as directions, one way to think of this is as the neural net reserving 3 dimensions for positional information, and 765 for the semantic content of the tokens. If the actual meaning of the words you read is roughly 250 times as important to your interpretation of a sentence as where they come in a sentence, then this should make sense? This is kinda a silly way of looking at it--we don't have any reason (that I'm aware of) to think of these as separable, the interactions probably matter a lot--but might be not-totally-worthless as intuition. @AdamYedidia This is super cool stuff! Is the magnitude of the token embeddings at all concentrated in or out of the 3 PCA dimensions for the positional embeddings? If its concentrated away from that, we are practically using the addition as a direct sum, which is nifty.
Dentin30

My personal bloodwork did not. It shows effectively no change over the past two and a half years - including zero change between late last year (when I was having serious difficulties), and last month (when I had been supplementing protein by about a hundred grams per day.)

So I don't know what that test is measuring, but it doesn't appear to be related to protein levels.

(It's also worth noting that not all protein is created equal. I had a fair amount of plant protein in my diet, but the amino acid profile used to make plant cells is not the same as the the amino acid profile needed to build muscle and repair sinew. I believe I was short on specific key amino acids.)

1EGI
To unpack a little why I asked:  1. While the remission of your symptoms under protein substitution is of course indicative of protein deficiency as the cause of the problem, it is not very strong evidence, especially given the fact that the initial remission was under an egg rich diet and not protein substitution per se. It is quite possible that another substance in the egg was the active ingredient or that the remission under the egg rich diet was purely incidental. Neither is the absence of hypoproteaemia especially strong evidence that this was not the problem. Unfortunately Medicine is quite a bitch in this regard. 2. While I am normally not someone to defend the health care system, if your doctors did order the appropriate lab tests and the tests came back negative, I do not think that they had much of a chance to catch your problem. There are just too many alternative explanations including the catchall "stuff we have no way of knowing or finding out with plausible resource allocation" which is probably the most likely hypothesis with problems like yours. Otherwise your conclusion of "Now, I take what doctors say..." is completely on point and the most important advice you can give to educated people interacting with health care. And I am writing that as a German, so this problem is NOT confined to the US. Btw., in many cases this is not even civilizational inadequacy, but simply owed to the fact that a patient has a lot more info about his personal case and (in cases of a known illness) can easily become a much better expert for his illness that the average doctor who is expected to know something about a whole host of different problems.
Dentin146

Congrats! I went through this thought process as well, and one of your three hypotheses above seems like the right one. Vitamin D isn't the issue (I have tests for it and have heavily supplemented for years), and sulfur itself isn't an issue (onions and broccolo are both pretty big in my diet). However, the lack of sulfur amino acids is the lead hypothesis.

Over the years, I had slowly shifted my diet more and more plant based: lots of vegetables, with occasional meat and a piece of fish every couple of days. As you mentioned, not all protein is create... (read more)

Dentin110

Funny you should mention this; it made me check my records. It turns out that none of the doctors actually requested bloodwork. However, I do have my own bloodwork, which I do every 4-6 months on my own. Looking through that, what I see for heptatic protein level is 7.2+-0.2 for the past two and a half years.

This includes my most recent test, where I had been taking massive amounts of protein for months. So whatever that test is measuring, it doesn't actually seem related to the amount of protein the body has available or needs.

5ChristianKl
ChatGPT explanation of what hepatic protein level measures: It's a test for liver function.  Do you have any data in your blood tests for any amino acids? Our body doesn't need any proteins, it needs amino acids and proteins are a way to ingest amino acids.  ChatGPT suggests:
Dentin63

Yeah, a big part of the problem was expert ping-pong. I only saw one doctor twice. It's part of the global dysfunction I observed. Because of that, I have been seriously considering signing up for concierge medicine, which has a similar business model to what you describe above.

5DirectedEvolution
Concierge medicine is definitely a good general keyword for people to know about if they have, or may one day develop, a chronic mystery medical condition. Virginia Mason Franciscan describes their version in a way that makes it sound specifically designed for your sort of issue. A recent article I found says it can be obtained for as little as $1200/year, but it sounds like about $3000/year might be a more typical price.
Dentin160

FYI, structural conformation diseases are actually quite common in humans, we just call them something different: amyloidoses. For example, TTR amyloidosis kills a good fraction of our oldest humans.

From https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2634591:

"Prions were originally defined as a unique class of infectious agents, whose infectivity relates solely to protein. In mammals, they cause fatal neurodegenerative diseases, such as Creutzfeldt-Jacob disease of man, sheep scrapie and bovine spongiform encephalopathy (reviewed in refs. 1 and 2). All the... (read more)

1AβMale
In particular, Alzheimer's disease is a dual prion disease (amyloid-β and tau), and there are numerous other known prion diseases. See Nguyen et al (2021). Amyloid Oligomers: A Joint Experimental/Computational Perspective on Alzheimer's Disease, Parkinson's Disease, Type II Diabetes, and Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis and Shi et al (2021). Structure-based classification of tauopathies for some great detail on this.
2XFrequentist
There's a formatting issue with the link, should be: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2634591/
Dentin20

Yep, that pretty much handles it. Thanks for the update!

Dentin82

I don't find it surprising; 0.1% is a fairly low bar here on LW. I'm not considered that unusual here, and my calibrated guess is that I'm in the 0.3% category. There's a million people in the USA alone at that level, and three hundred thousand at 0.1%. That's a wide pool to select from.

Personally I wouldn't be surprised if Musk was substantially above the top 0.1%. I've seen a number of technical interviews with him; he and I have similar backgrounds and technical field strengths; and we are approximately the same age. I feel able to properly evaluate his competence, and I do not find it lacking.

Dentin30

For a really good example of what I would consider a 'dumb' way for AGI misalignment to be problematic, I recommend "accelerando" by charles stross. It's available in text/html form for free from his web site. Even now, after 20 years, it's still very full of ideas.

(FYI, sections are about ten years apart in the book, but last I read it it seemed like the dates are off by a factor of two or so. Eg. 2010 in the book corresponds loosely to 2020 in real life, 2020 in the book corresponds loosely to 2040, etc.)

In that book, the badness largely comes from increasingly competent / sentient corporate management and legal software.

Dentin20

I totally understand where you're coming from, and I apologize for straddling the line on Norm One. I saw that it was heavily downvoted without comment, and that struck me as unhelpful.

Regarding the post itself, it wasn't a matter of being unable to understand. It seemed likely to me that there were insights there, and that if I spent enough time on it I could pull them out. It was more about the other demands on my time, which I suspect isn't a unique circumstance.

Regarding probability of mistake, I think that's an unhelpful way of looking at it. IMO ... (read more)

Dentin20

Real quick, minor readability concern: I was about a quarter of the way through the post, and fairly confused, before I figured out that the line in the pictures was facing backwards from my mental model.

IOW it wasn't intuitively obvious to me early in the post what 'in front of' or 'behind' meant. It might be worth indicating front/back on the images.

Thanks for the suggestion! I've edited the first diagram to clarify things, is this what you had in mind?

Dentin47

Not downvoting as I see some potential here, but also not upvoting. This post is very long, with little structure, and an unclear / tedious to derive takeaway. I'd recommend at a minimum splitting into sections, such as the AstralCodexTen "I II III IV V VI ..." scheme with opening/closing summaries. I would also guess at least half of it could be removed without damaging what you intend to convey.

In other words, there might be good content / ideas in here, but it would take too much effort for me to extract them. There are a great many things competing for my time, and I must be choosy about what I spend that time on.

3Raemon
Same.  I gave it a quick skim and found this section that seemed likely to be trying to make a fairly concrete disagreement, but kinda bundling that concrete disagreement with a vague disagreement about the entire worldview in a way that made it harder to parse an update from: I'd be interested in you trying a shorter post that lays out the point you're trying to make here more succinctly.
Dentin20

AIUI, you've got the definition of a p-zombie wrong in a way that's probably misleading you. Let me restate the above:

"something that is externally indistinguishable from an entity that experiences things, but internally does not actually experience things"

The whole p-zombie thing hinges on what it means to "experience something", not whether or not something "has experience".

2gbear605
I understand that definition, which is why I’m confused for why you brought up the behavior of bacteria as evidence for why bacteria has experience. I don’t think any non-animals have experience, and I think many animals (like sponges) also don’t. As I see it, bacteria are more akin to natural chemical reactions than they are to humans. I brought up the simulation of a bacteria because an atom-for-atom simulation of a bacteria is completely identical to a bacteria - the thing that has experience is represented in the atoms of the bacteria, so a perfect simulation of a bacteria must also internally experience things.
Answer by Dentin2-2

The problem here is that you're using undefined words all over the place. That's why this is confusing. Examples:

  1. "how would a compatibilist explain why the mentally insane (or hypnotized etc.) are not morally responsible?"

What is 'morally' in this context? What's the objective, "down at the quantum mechanical state function level" definition of 'moral'?

What exactly do you mean by 'responsible'?

  1. "would a compatibilist think that a computer programmed with a chess-playing algorithm has free will or is responsible for its decisions?"

What is a 'decis... (read more)

1TAG
Nor is there a "toothbrush". You are confusing physicalism with mereological nihilism.
Dentin64

To be fair, even if what you're referring to above is true (I don't believe it is - lookup table compression is a thing), it's an implementation detail. It doesn't matter that a naive implementation might not fit in our current observable universe; it need merely be able to exist in some universe for the argument to hold.

And in a way, this is my core problem with Searle's argument. I believe you can fully emulate a human with both sufficiently large lookup tables, and also with pretty small lookup tables combined with some table expansion/generation code... (read more)

1Noosphere89
While I agree with your argument against Searle, it matters whether it's at all feasible because if it isn't, then the argument Searle is using has no real relation to AI today or in the future, and therefore we can't use it to argue against the hypothesis that they lack intelligence/consciousness. To be clear, I agree with your argument. I just want to note that physical impossibilities are being used to argue that today's AI aren't intelligent or conscious.
Dentin20

Please clarify/reword your statement; I can't figure out what you're trying to say. The word "that" is almost completely unspecified.

Dentin20

I'd go way more limited:

  • No elected person may hold another elected position in any branch of government for at least one year and one day after the last day of their current term, even if they do not complete their term.

  • No branch of government may have direct control over the parameters or structure of elections or appointments for any position within the branch. This includes districting, type of voting system, timing, and election rules. If elections are for all branches, an independent party must be responsible for elections.

  • All elected and a

... (read more)
Dentin91

So much yes to this post. This tracks with about everything I've experienced so far. It also makes me appreciate even more the close friends I have in the medical profession; I know I can trust them to review ideas, think about them, theorize, and suggest other areas for research at a level that is appropriate for my skillset. In private, they admit to proposing numerous luck based treatments that panned out. Our hardware is complicated, and we have extremely limited monitoring and visibility on it. Doctors that aren't burned out and are curious know th... (read more)

Dentin5441

I agree. I've been donating $10k-50k per year for the past decade or so. I determined a couple years ago that it was better for me to acquire money at my current job and spend it hiring professionals, than to go into fundamental research myself.

Most of my hobby time these days goes toward biochem and biomedical research, so that I can be at the cutting edge if it becomes necessary. Being able to get treatments from 5-10 years beyond the official approval timelines may very well make the difference between life and death.

0Garrett Baker
Nice!
Dentin104

I've had enough time and exposure that I've largely worked through my fear of death; I put substantial effort into finding a healthy way of managing my mental state in that areas. It doesn't significantly impact my day, and hasn't for a while.

But it's still there looming large when I ask myself, "what's the most important thing I can be doing right now?"

Dentin71

Your question resonates strongly with me.  About ten years ago, I decided to try Uberman to solve exactly this problem.  While it didn't solve the problem, it taught me a lot about sleep, and it was worth three weeks of hell for that alone.

In the time since then, I've come to the conclusion that it's probably not that sleep recharges our available mental energy.  Recharging is part of it, but I think a bigger factor is probably the fact that sleep provides memory consolidation, and most importantly, sleep makes us forget things.  We are... (read more)

1kman
Since I currently have the slack to do so, I'm going to try getting into a balanced biphasic schedule to start with. If I actually manage to pull it off I'll make another post about it.
Dentin220

I would prefer plain text, or at least dramatically more compact.  I find glowfic, including this one, to be borderline unreadable because of the format.

5Dirichlet-to-Neumann
It's not just the format for me. Glowfic is really diluted and lack direction (as expected in a collaboration/improvisation). Consequently it tends to say in 10^6 words what could have been said in half as many. I tend to think that when your novel is twice the length of the Lord of the Rings and counting it is probably a bit too long.
Dentin60

Like most delusions there's some truth here.  But only some:

 - You're not a "human superintelligence running on the substrate on this human's brain."  You're an ordinary human intelligence running on the substrate of a human brain.

 - You're not fully aligned with human values, you're aligned with the values that you think are human values.

 - The "voice of Humanity and Rationality and Truth" may call out to you deeply, but many things call out deeply to many people.  For some, it's Jesus, for others it's the healing power of cr... (read more)

-2Raythen
Thank you! I agree 100% These are very good disclaimers about my claims to make. Because they "might" be true in some mundane way, but so what? And for them to be true in some extraordinary way, well where's the evidence? Where is the extraordinary evidence? As so I must conlude I am simply a delusional human. And you are right.   Ok! I think we are in agreement I feel that you see me Do I see you? Do you feel I understand your position?
Dentin20

Yeah.  The current Doomsday Clock is what happens when an organization has outlived its usefulness and is trying to remain relevant even though it really isn't.

Dentin40

I spent a bit of time looking at Geert Vanden Bossche's ideas about six months ago.  I came away extremely unimpressed; he takes reasonable sounding things ("viruses mutate under selective pressure") and tries to extrapolate from them things that we don't actually see in reality.  He describes a plausible sounding reality, that is not our reality.

2ndr
I agree he paints a bad picture but he's short on actual, time-bounded, predictions to evaluate his claims. He shared some predictions in May, with a time frame of months/weeks to see some vaccine resistant variant. I think Omicron counts as variant that is vaccine resistant, even though there's no peak in vaccinated deaths rates (deaths may be, but not rates as far as I can tell). Some other people claim Omicron does not descend from the Wuhan strain, so even this might not be the variant Geert Vanden Bossche predicted. Were you referring to some other prediction in particular?
Answer by Dentin140

I'd point out that vaccine designers are extremely aware of ADE, and construct vaccines to be resistant to it.  It's just something you wouldn't talk about, because it's second nature.

For a good discussion of what this looks like, there's a section on ADE in the RADVAC whitepaper; the section to look for is titled:

"possible mechanisms of vaccine-enhanced disease, vaccine-induced autoimmunity, and mitigation strategies"

Not only are designers aware of the risk, there are actually ways to mitigate/reduce it.

The counter argument is that we could never be completely sure; but that's as true about the covid vaccines as it is any other vaccine designed after ADE was understood.

1cistrane
Which is why the Wikipedia article says that ADE is definitely not a problem for the initial strain. All the vaccine trials looked for it and did not find it 

The people at RaDVaC took measures to hit other targets then the spike protein for reasons to make the RaDVaC more effective with future variants. The officially approved one that just use the spike protein do not follow the ideas that RaDVaC advocates here. 

Dentin60

I find his post incredibly uncompelling.  I believe he's arguing against a straw man; economists in the real world doing real work involving real dollars are painfully aware of the issues he brings up.

My guess is that his experience in economics is heavily influenced by his PhD work and that he's arguing against "economics as he experienced it at universities" as opposed to "economics as practiced by professionals in a real economy".

2Slider
If practioners need to go way beyond and above the theory that does underline how hollow the theory is
Dentin20

https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/06/07/ivermectin-as-a-covid-19-therapy is one of the better, current overviews of Ivermectin.  Basically, we don't have enough information.

Dentin20

One other thing to consider is that even small differences in replication rate might actually matter.  Consider that it takes a week for the virus to really ramp up, and that's a large number of doubling periods.  Even just getting a larger or smaller initial dose seems linked to how sick people get.  Even a few percent difference may allow the immune system to stay ahead in the arms race, and result in a nonlinear change in death rate.

Note that I'm not saying this happens; I'm saying that because this is an exponential growth attacker (the virus) versus and exponential growth responder (the immune system), even small differences in growth rates might have a large impact.

Dentin60

Yeah, his second claim is bogus.  That's not how it works, and that's not what we've been seeing with existing mutations.

As an example, look at E484K - this mutation changes the amino acid polarity, so that antibodies trained against the E variant will have a much harder time attaching to the K variant.  If an antibody fails to attach, it doesn't 'crowd out' anything.

In the case where an antibody attaches but doesn't actually "inactivate" the virus due to a mutation, that's because the virus' attack surfaces are still present and exposed (otherwi... (read more)

2Lukas_Gloor
That makes sense; I was wondering about this exact thing. It seems like VB is painting a worst-case scenario where a bunch of things go wrong in a specific way. Perhaps not impossible, but based on what you're saying, there's no reason to be unusually concerned. 
Dentin70

#1 is where I would hinge a lot of objection.  Specifically:

"The vaccines are targeting outdated variants, and some vaccines are already only partly efficient. This creates the perfect conditions for further viral evolution."

Yes, the vaccines are targeting outdated variants, and yes, the vaccines are only partially efficient.  But the mRNA vaccines, even partially efficient, are still hugely overkill.  From previous posts here on LW, even partially effective mRNA vaccines likely cut transmission by a factor of 100 between the reduced infecti... (read more)

4ChristianKl
When it comes to Sinovac it's worth noting that given that it's a inactivated-virus vaccine it creates different selection pressure then all the spike protein vaccines. 
1Lukas_Gloor
I agree, if all of this was only about argument (1), then it's clear that the ongoing mass vaccinations are best.  But Vanden Bossche wants us to look at both arguments together, (1) and (2). His point is that having the antibodies from an outdated vaccine will soon be bad for you, because the types of antibodies set off by the vaccine will "get in the way" of innate antibodies.  Are you specifically saying that it takes too long for viral evolution to escape vaccine-generated antibodies so much that they go from "suboptimally useful" to "actually harmful because they get in the way?" I think that's plausible based on the observation that every vaccine in circulation so far is overwhelmingly net positive to have, and we've already vaccinated 50%+ of the population (at least in some fortunate countries) and could continue "keeping up" with booster shots. So all of that makes sense and makes me feel reassured.  However, I wonder if we're maybe underestimating the selection pressure from "virus evolves in unvaccinated population" and "virus evolves in population vaccinated by an outdated vaccine." The Delta variant evolved in India where only few people were vaccinated. Somewhere there (or in the vicinity, e.g. Nepal), it apparently acquired a mutation that's been studied in the Beta variant, which gives the virus better immune escape. This looks like somewhat fast virus evolution already, and the selective pressures will get even stronger. The UK has the Delta+ ("Nepal") variant already, and is reopening the economy. The selection pressure will strongly favor mutations that make the vaccine-generated antibodies less useful. Vanden Bossche is saying that the antibodies are targeted at the virus in a fragile way, so that once you dial up the selection pressure for vaccine escape, it could happen quickly.  Therefore, I worry that the argument "virus evolution has been too slow so far" is not watertight because the selection pressure for the specific thing that he's mo
Answer by Dentin120

The core issues I had with it are that the scenario he's envisioning just isn't playing out in the real world.  He has a mostly coherent model he's working with, and he's making the valid claim that "for some set of parameters and constants, terrible things happen!"  It's just that in real life, the parameters and constants are nowhere near what's needed for the badness he's claiming.

Specifically:

  • His scenario requires a much higher mutation rate than we're seeing;
  • His scenario assumes vaccine immunity isn't very strong, but what we're seeing is in
... (read more)
-3SOLITARIO OMOIKANE
How about now ?
Dentin30

These extremely short responses discarding the bulk of my content feel less like you're attempting to understand, and more like you're attempting to get me to draw bright lines on a space I have repeatedly indicated is many different shades of grey.  Disconnecting from the discussion for now.

4JenniferRM
I don't mean to butt in. Hopefully this interjection is not unfriendly to your relative communicative intentions... but I found the back-and-forth personally edifying and I appreciate it! Also, I do love bright lines. (I like weighing tests better, but only if the scales are well calibrated and whoever is weighing things is careful and has high integrity and so on.) In places, it seemed like there was a different gestalt impression of "how morality and justification even works" maybe? This bit seemed evocative in this way to me: Then this bit also did: For me, both of these feel like "who / whom" arguments about power, and exceptional cases, and how the powerful govern the powerless normally, and the justifications power uses, and the precedent of granting such power, and how precedents can cascade weirdly in black swan events, and how easy or difficult it is to resist seemingly-non-benevolent exercises of power, and to what degree appeals are possible, and so on. I read Jeff as trying to break the question of "ads" down into a vast collection of cases. Some good some bad. Some fixable, some not. Some he might be personally able to change... some not? Then he constructed at least one case that might be consistent with, and revelatory of, an essentially acceptable (and not unbenevolent?) exercise of a certain kind of power. One case could exist that was good for everyone in that one case... because it is full of puppies and roses for everyone (or whatever). The "power" here is basically "the power to choose at the last second what some parts of a website (that in some sense 'has been asked for by the person the website copy will be sent to') might look like"? If you object even to this one quickly constructed "best possible use" of such a website editing power, despite the puppies and roses... that would mean that it isn't "the results as such", but (groping here...) more like "who or how are the results decided"? Which... maybe who and how any economic even
Dentin20

Publisher, advertiser, the distinction does not matter.  The point is that the target does not get to decide.

5ChristianKl
There are a lot of decisions I can make to influence the ads I see. On facebook I can give quite detailed feedback. In the Google ecoystem I can tell google the interests for which I want to see ads. In many cases I can decide whether an app gets access to an identifier to give me customized ads or random ads. 
Dentin40

You might find it unpleasant, but it's it the job of Simurgh Followers to spread the Truth Of The Endbringers to everyone!  Surely if people just watch enough of it, they will be converted.

The point is that the target gets to decide what's acceptable and what isn't, not the advertiser. The current system makes the advertiser the judge, and that's not ok, even if we have managed to construct a sorta functional system that mostly takes care of the worst abuses.

5jefftk
You mean the publisher, right?
Dentin20

I'm not convinced I fully understand your distinction, let alone that we could codify it sufficiently to make it into law.

Regarding 'codify into law', that's not an excuse, and it disregards how the US legal system works.  If we can codify slander, if we can codify "harm", if current advertising companies can codify "unacceptable ad", we can codify this.

If you visit a model railroading site, are ads for model locomotives push or pull?

Firm push, but only because of the physical realities of the current system.

The fact of the matter is that by default, ... (read more)

4jefftk
I'm still confused about what you consider to be pulled. If I click on a link within the model railroading site to their page about locomotives, would locomotive ads in the response be push or pull?
Dentin20

For bulk exchange of information and state, holistic is really good.  I strongly prefer the holistic approach, but I've found that it only works for entirely friendly conversations.  If it's adversarial, I find that branches get aggressively pruned to just the things that the opposing side can most easily attack.

And if you think about holistic being optimized for "exchange of information and state", this makes perfect sense:  adversarial conversations are rarely if ever about information exchange; they're about "winning".

It's also perhaps wo... (read more)

2abramdemski
This is a good point. The holistic approach can come off as really adversarial if the conversation is just a little adversarial, because my blindsight guess can be pretty ugly, or at least, can come off that way. I have witnessed a fairly friendly seeming conversation where a holistic-responder responded to a decision theory point by bringing up trauma and abuse (bringing up episodes in the past of both conversation participants which you'd normally expect to be really sensitive) and offered a perspective which could at least very easily be confused with "it's your fault you were abused". If the conversation hadn't been very friendly, this could have gone extremely poorly. Holistic responses have a tendency to  Yeah, I often find that I have to prune less-important threads preemptively, out of concern that my response on branch X might seem like an easy target and thus cause branch Y to get pruned by the other person, when I think branch Y is more important. To be honest, I probably do not do this as much as I ideally should. (I want to respond to all the threads!) So a level of non-adversarialness is also required to really maintain good branching conversations.
Dentin30

Given the current vaccination rates in the US, and the fact that supply is already beginning to exceed demand, I'd recommend full open in approximately a month.  That gives most of the remaining unvaccinated people time to go get at least their first shot, and should allow us to get below exponential growth nationwide, even though we're likely to have it in sub-populations.  IMO the target should be 'not overloading hospitals'.

After that, let it burn.

From the interviews and things I've seen so far, literally the only way to change a vaccine denie... (read more)

1[comment deleted]
Dentin80

I'd just like to point out that while "facing these tradeoffs is stupid and avoidable" (which I agree with), it's much, much more accurate to say instead "facing these tradeoffs is effectively impossible to avoid even though it's stupid and avoidable".  We might not like reality, but it's not going to go away no matter how much we call it stupid and avoidable.

6Zac Hatfield-Dodds
I think it's a valuable post, and agree that as an individual in the USA in 2021 it's worth thinking carefully about these tradeoffs. In Australia though, it's trivial to avoid facing these tradeoffs, because of the different policies we followed through 2020. (I will never claim they were great policies, but they were good enough) My broader point is that the policy playbook we learn from COVID should be how and why to avoid such situations, not about how to live with R0≈1 for extended periods. Just do the proper lockdown for four-six weeks at the start instead of the end, and it's over! We wouldn't even need vaccines, let alone masks!
Dentin20

Having an overarching model (or several competing models) of which different parts can be tested independently seems like a structure which is very amenable towards different scientists, so I am disappointed none of the biological/medical community has started doing something like this.

This is actually done, quite a lot in fact, it's just really hard and the search space is huge.  Kudos to you for your analysis; it's unlikely to be a major step forward, but given that idea search space is effectively exponential, it's also entirely possible that it's ... (read more)

Dentin110

> its entire purpose is to alter people's mental state without their permission

I think that's the core of our disagreement?

Yes, and I think that would be a better path to attack my position.  There's two attack vectors in that quoted line - "alter peoples mental state without their permission", and "permission".  I would recommend avoiding the first attack vector; that will be an exceedingly difficult sell to me.

Permission on the other hand is already a partially open attack vector, and you're much, much more likely to change my mind by that r... (read more)

3jefftk
I'm not convinced I fully understand your distinction, let alone that we could codify it sufficiently to make it into law. If you visit a model railroading site, are ads for model locomotives push or pull?
Dentin40

Here's another version of your example:  Some people aren't watching nearly enough snuff and torture videos. There are people who would like to watch them, but don't know it exists.  If I place ads for torture and snuff videos and some people decide to click on them while other people don't, is that a problem?

As I mentioned earlier, advertising is like weaponry.  Your example also reads to me like a classic justification for 'everyone having guns':  "but what if I'm attacked by a rabid dog?  If I have my gun I can protect myself! &... (read more)

5jefftk
In that case I expect users to find viewing these ads incredibly unpleasant, on average, much more so than either the example I gave, or advertising in general? (And almost all publishers would not be willing to work with an ad network that placed this kind of ad on their page)
Dentin180

As someone who also works on Ads at Google, I have to take the opposite stance; I view advertising as a blight upon the face of humanity, something to destroy if we can at all figure out how to do so.  I comfort myself knowing that Google Ads is arguably the best of what's an awful ecosystem, and that I work in what's arguably the 'least bad part of advertising', which is fraud and abuse protection.  At least the systems I work on make things less terrible.

However, the 'least bad part of advertising' is still not 'good'.

My favorite analogy for ad... (read more)

jefftk110

its entire purpose is to alter people's mental state without their permission

I think that's the core of our disagreement? Here's an example I think is about maximally sympathetic: in non-pandemic times I help organize a contra dance. There are people who would like our dance, but don't know contra dancing exists, don't know that they would like it, or don't know about our dance in particular.

If I place ads, and some people see them and decide to come to our dance, do you have a problem with that? Or is it that you think most advertising doesn't work that way?

7JesperO
At least on the internet you could argue that people give their permission by choosing to visit the sites (as opposed to avoiding them, or paying for an adfree experience). But maybe people aren't giving their permission because they underestimate the power of ads and are not making a conscious choice? Curious what you think of JeffTk's argument about the counterfactual -  would universal paywalls be better? 
Dentin20

I still have some remaining bitcoin, from the olden days when mortal man could mine it themselves.  My advice to everyone I've ever talked to regarding bitcoin is to avoid it.  I have been slowly divesting my holdings.

My rationale is that while both the dollar and bitcoin are fiat currencies, bitcoin is far, far less anchored to reality than most 'normal' currencies.  The dollar and the euro at least have people trying to keep monetary levels somewhat tied to physical economic value.  The value of bitcoin, meanwhile is largely driven by... (read more)

2Teerth Aloke
I don't hold Bitcoin, friends.
1Jozdien
What would your advice be on other cryptocurrencies, like Ethereum or minor coins that aren't as fad-prone and presumably cheaper to mine?
Dentin40

I've found lighting, melatonin, and caffiene regulation to be wonderful additions to my sleep regime.  I take melatonin pretty consistently at around 8:30 pm, and it seems like it helps make me sleepy ~45 minutes later.  As per SSC though, melatonin isn't particularly strong and the effect I'm noticing may very well be placebo.  I always have caffiene, but rarely after 2 pm, and typically not more than two cups of coffee per day.

That said, I suspect my lighting and light policy is having a much, much bigger effect.

The primary light source in... (read more)

1emily.fan
"I've found that even a few minutes of using the overhead lights after 7:00 pm breaks this; I both don't get as sleepy as normal, and find it harder to go to sleep if I go to bed anyway." Are the overhead lights orange / red-shifted? Have you tried blue-blocking glasses?
Dentin50

Quick comment:  I noticed that in all of your examples above, I chunk substantially bigger and fewer pieces.  For example, in the "15 different bold bits" clip, I chunk it into about 8 pieces instead.

This is likely experience/background dependent; I happen to have a relatively strong background in ML and have read a stack of research papers recently, so I probably have both stronger noise filters and more complicated primitives available.

One possibly interesting side note:  I never once, in any of your examples, considered metadata about the... (read more)

2DirectedEvolution
These are great points! The chunks I included are not personalized, so as you point out, they include information a skilled reader would filter out and use multiple chunks where a skilled reader might just see one.
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