All of Dutchy's Comments + Replies

Dutchy2-1

Your point about it being difficult to leave society is one of the most common objections to social contract theory. However, you have misunderstood what implicit consent is. This article offers a clear explanation of what explicit and implicit consent are. I recommend reading it in full, but I'll quickly draw out the most relevant sections. 

Explicit agreement: This occurs when you explicitly communicate that you agree to something. For instance, if you say, “I will give you $5 for a hamburger”, and they bring you one, you have explicitly agreed to pa

... (read more)
6Viliam
The problem with "implicit consent via acceptance of services" is that if someone takes you as a slave, unless you choose to starve to death in protest, you have "implicitly consented" to slavery by eating the food they gave you. This argument proves too much; it legitimizes not only governments but also slavery. For the record, I am not an anarchist, and my objection against violating someone's consent is not absolute. From my perspective, we live in a universe that doesn't care about our freedoms or happiness, and sometimes there is simply no perfect solution, and trying to make people happy in one way will only make them unhappy in a different way. So I see consent as an important - but not absolute - thing. If building a functional society requires occasionally violating someone's consent, I guess it should be done, because the alternative is much worse. But it should not be done cheaply, and we should not pretend that it didn't happen, which is what the social contract theory is trying to do, in my opinion.
Dutchy30

That's a really insightful historical analysis. However, I don't think that quite addresses the point the author is trying to make. Perhaps I'm overstepping the mark slightly, but I think the author would claim that it doesn't matter if it takes another 100 years or a 1000 years more for democratic societies to form. What does matter (for the author) is that they would form, and that when they did, that story would be the history we have today.

However, I do think the points you make about the history are interesting, and perhaps an engrossing thought exerc... (read more)

5MikkW
I appreciate your reply. The point I was trying to make is, the contingency of ⌞there being an instance of democratic revolution going smoothly⌝ potentially makes the difference between that straight line happening or not happening. (And if the occurrence took 1000 years - but even that isn't a given - I would consider that an example of "a god of straight lines" successfully being overpowered.) I think that if there was sufficient backlash against democratic revolution (unclear if the American Revolution not happening would be enough cause), the then-existing status quo in the West (monarchy / feudalism) would not have gone on- that particular "god of straight lines" dooming feudalism would have been very hard to stop, but the resulting system need not have looked like democracy, and >50% would have been substantially worse by ⌞metrics most westerners care about⌝, though with small probability even better than the form of institutions which we ended up receiving, but largely different from modern notions of democracy.
Dutchy0-2

Part of the entire idea of a democracy or republic is that government is only legitimate when it comes with the consent of the governed - and yet no one consented to the governance or laws made before they were born!

In political philosophy, this is not what it means to consent to be governed. Most social contract theorists would argue that by virtue of living within the society/state, you have implicitly consented to being governed. That is the nature of the social contract. As such, in being a member of that society, you consent not just to all laws being... (read more)

1Sable
I understand what you're saying. I wasn't familiar with the exact definitions of the political theory you cite. I do think that it's reasonable to be bound by laws made before one was born, but only to a certain extent. Society changes over time, and over a long enough period of time I would argue - philosophically - that the society that passed the law is no longer the society I was born into. (And yet the law is still binding, because the law doesn't have an expiration date.) That being said, thanks for the reply, and I appreciate the feedback!
Viliam109

"implicit consent" sounds like the exact opposite of "consent"

If we taboo the words, "consent" means that someone said "yes", or nodded, or signed a paper. How specifically is "implicit consent" different from "the person disagrees, but doesn't really have much of a choice"?

What do you need to do so that people finally stop saying that you "consent implicitly"? Some say that you should leave the society. But anywhere else is a different society; what if I don't consent to any of their rules? And by the way, according to this logic, the popularity of ideas ... (read more)

Dutchy32

I think the point the author is trying to make is that even if America hadn't become democratic, another country would have soon after, and that country would have had the strong/knock-on effect you refer to.

MikkW1710

Thought 1: Yeah, that's fair

Thought 2: Though I also feel like a different country being the first to establish independence, could have made a difference in the long-term trajectory of things. Many of the revolutions that followed the American Revolution (including the French Revolution, which some people view as an even bigger deal than the American) went quite off the rails and were quite unpleasant, and generally soured many people on the idea, while the United States ended up going fairly smoothly after the constitution was implemented. If the French ... (read more)

Dutchy30

Does taking the pill stop these people from being human? It seems like in an alternative interpretation could be that given William can master anything a human can do, then (assuming the others are human) he would able to do anything that the pills allow? Could be an interesting 'alternative universe' to consider. Captivating post!

Dutchy10

In the first counter-examples you make the assumption that people who are young are persons, in the sense that they are worth moral consideration. Some would maintain that children are not people, and thus any action regarding them cannot be considered moral/immoral. In other words, their consent does not matter as they are not 'actors'. In that way Decius' claim that all actors must consent would still be true, as you are the only actor in that scenario. I'd be curious to read about any justification you would cite for the treatment of children as moral a... (read more)