All of Ediz Ucar's Comments + Replies

Perhaps I've missed the point of your post, but to me the whole confusion around Gender is not internal validity, after all circular definitions are valid - but not convincing to the outside view.

1Joey Marcellino
I see the two main arguments of the book as 1) we should understand "gender identity" as a bunch of subjective feelings about various traits, which may or may not cohere into an introspectively accessible "identity"; 2) we can understand gender categories as a particular kind of irreducible category (namely historical lineages) to which membership is granted by community consensus, the categories being "irreducible" in that they are not defined by additional facts about their members. These stand or fall independently of whether we accept gender self-id, although self-id is compatible with BG's understanding of categories in a way that it is not necessarily with clusters. See the last section of the review for reasons why we might sometimes prefer BG's analysis of categories on the outside view; I think it's potentially more useful for thinking about the role of categories in society and in people's lives. I agree this is not a knockdown case, but I certainly think it's a better framework than e.g. "men are those with the essential spirit of man-ness inside them," which is also coherent but not very interesting.
-4M. Y. Zuo
How does linking this make sense? I’m not disputing the definitions, it’s already settled as indicated in the copied text. And even if the OED were disputing this, it is already superior in authority to the OP, to you, and likely everyone else who read that link post, so its definitions are already accepted widely enough that random people on an internet forum can’t possibly alter that acceptance one way or the other.

Thanks for this summary. I didn't find the examples of irreducible categories all that convincing. I think that, although more difficult than the average category (e.g. certain physical objects), there are underlying traits that we are pointing at for these. 

For example:

Teams or clubs: BG give the particularly crisp example of Pokemon GO, where players choose to associate with one of three teams that are functionally indistinguishable except for their respective color.

The trait here is not within the group but in how it interacts with other groups. Th... (read more)

2Joey Marcellino
That's a good question. I think BG's way of thinking about gender categories is potentially useful for racial/ethnic categories as well, particularly the bit about category membership as a conferred status. I think they'd probably agree with this. They don't really argue that we ought to have gender self ID; they explicitly assume this to be the case, and are more trying to show that it's coherent. I suspect if you asked them they would probably say that we ought not to have racial self ID, or that it ought to be much more limited than in the case of gender (here are some candidate reasons why one might think this https://www.bostonreview.net/articles/robin-dembroff-dee-payton-breaking-analogy-between-race-and-gender/), but they'd probably grant that it is at least also coherent.

The thing that we care about is how long it takes to get to agents. If we put lots of effort making powerful Oracle systems or other non-agentic systems, we must assume that agentic systems will follow shortly. Someone will make them, even if you do not. 

2David Scott Krueger (formerly: capybaralet)
I don't disagree... in this case you don't get agents for a long time; someone else does though.

if you don't do RL or other training schemes that seem designed to induce agentyness and you don't do tasks that use an agentic supervision signal, then you probably don't get agents for a long time

 

Is this really the case? If you imagine a perfect Oracle AI, which is certainly not agenty, it seems to me that with some simple scaffolding, one could construct a highly agentic system. It would go something along the lines of 

  1. Setup API access to 'things' which can interact with the real world. 
  2. Ask the oracle 'What would be the optimal action if
... (read more)
3David Scott Krueger (formerly: capybaralet)
I meant "other training schemes" to encompass things like scaffolding that deliberately engineers agents using LLMs as components, although I acknowledge they are not literally "training" and more like "engineering".

Correlation or causation?

Could you site the studies that this section was based on. I would be interested in reading further as this seems to be the sticking point for most people when it comes to the topic of GM for embryos.

3GeneSmith
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-69927-7 This is one of the better papers I know of examining sibling validation. To quote from the article: There's more in the paper if you care to take a look.