All of Ideopunk's Comments + Replies

Ideopunk37-19

(Cross-posted from the EA forum)

Hi, I run the 80,000 Hours job board, thanks for writing this out! 

I agree that OpenAI has demonstrated a significant level of manipulativeness and have lost confidence in them prioritizing existential safety work. However, we don’t conceptualize the board as endorsing organisations. The point of the board is to give job-seekers access to opportunities where they can contribute to solving our top problems or build career capital to do so (as we write in our FAQ). Sometimes these roles are at organisations whose mis... (read more)

Remmelt101

We used to list roles that seemed more tangentially safety-related, but because of our reduced confidence in OpenAI


This misses aspects of what used to be 80k's position:

❝ In fact, we think it can be the best career step for some of our readers to work in labs, even in non-safety roles. That’s the core reason why we list these roles on our job board. 
– Benjamin Hilton, February 2024

❝ Top AI labs are high-performing, rapidly growing organisations. In general, one of the best ways to gain career capital is to go and work with any high-performing tea... (read more)

1DPiepgrass
I think there may be merit in pointing EAs toward OpenAI safety-related work, because those positions will presumably be filled by someone and I would prefer it be filled by someone (i) very competent (ii) who is familiar with (and cares about) a wide range of AGI risks, and EA groups often discuss such risks. However, anyone applying at OpenAI should be aware of the previous drama before applying. The current job listings don't communicate the gravity or nuance of the issue before job-seekers push the blue button leading to OpenAI's job listing: I guess the card should be guarded, so that instead of just having a normal blue button, the user should expand some sort of 'additional details' subcard first. The user then sees some bullet points about the OpenAI drama and (preferably) expert concerns about working for OpenAI, each bullet point including a link to more details, followed by a secondary-styled button for the job application (typically, that would be a button with a white background and blue border). And of course you can do the same for any other job where the employer's interests don't seem well-aligned with humanity or otherwise don't have a good reputation. Edit: actually, for cases this important, I'd to replace 'View Job Details' with a "View Details" button that goes to a full page on 80000 Hours in order to highlight the relevant details more strongly, again with the real job link at the bottom.
9William_S
I do think 80k should have more context on OpenAI but also any other organization that seems bad with maybe useful roles. I think people can fail to realize the organizational context if it isn't pointed out and they only read the company's PR.

However, we don’t conceptualize the board as endorsing organisations.

It don't matter how you conceptualize it. It matters how it looks, and it looks like an endorsement. This is not an optics concern. The problem is that people who trust you will see this and think OpenAI is a good place to work.

Non-infosec safety work

  • These still seem like potentially very strong roles with the opportunity to do very important work. We think it’s still good for the world if talented people work in roles like this! 

How can you still think this after the whole safety te... (read more)

Firstly, some form of visible disclaimer may be appropriate if you want to continue listing these jobs. 

While the jobs board may not be "conceptualized" as endorsing organisations, I think some users will see jobs from OpenAI listed on the job board as at least a partial, implicit endorsement of OpenAI's mission.

Secondly, I don't think roles being directly related to safety or security should be a sufficient condition to list roles from an organisation, even if the roles are opportunities to do good work. 

I think this is easier to see if we move away from the AI Safety space. Would it be appropriate for 80,000 Hours job board advertise an Environmental Manager job from British Petroleum?

Elizabeth10854

How does 80k identify actual safety roles, vs. safety-washed capabilities roles? 

This event is no longer cancelled! 

This event is cancelled. I will not be there in time due to Hurricane Fiona, and cannot guarantee another host. Big apologies! 

1Ideopunk
This event is no longer cancelled! 

Come hang out, shy pals!

From my reading, he's much more scout than postmodern soldier in his lectures https://foucault.info/parrhesia/foucault.DT1.wordParrhesia.en/ -- and as a bonus, a much easier read. 

3adamShimi
Thanks! Also I think I shot myself in the foot by trying to read "The Order of Things" first, which is apparently one of his densest and hardest book (even if it is definitely on epistemology directly)

This is an excellent post. I expect (and hope!) it will shape how I handle disagreements.

"The person counters every objection raised, but the counters aren’t logically consistent with each other."

Is there a particular term for this? This is something I've encountered before, and having a handle for it might help with addressing it. 

1dirk
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop is slightly distinct but very similar, too.
7philh
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kettle_logic, though I'm not sure I've ever encountered the term in the wild.

This was a rich read, thank you!

This is interesting. Am I wrong in summarizing it as "deontology helps with coordination"? 

2lalaithion
No, that's a great summary.

Is there a way to see all the nominations listed? I registered in 2020 so I can't vote but I'd still love to pick through the nominations. 

2habryka
Yep, on this page you can see all nominations and reviews, plus all the posts with at least two nominations: https://lesswrong.com/reviews 

I of course agree (with original parent comment) that there are real problems and real solutions. I think three things are needed to qualify as a grifter, as compared to an honest informer. 

1) The sell. A grifter doesn't just tell you there's a problem, they will share the solution for a price. If you give them money (or control), they'll relieve your worry. 

2) The exclusivity. Alternative solutions are specifically highlighted as being insufficient or counterproductive. Somebody engaging in good-faith can acknowledge the costs and benefits of di... (read more)

76 was originally disclaimed with "wait a year before trying to be friends", which maybe should be added back in. I think friendship with exes is often doable eventually, it's the immediate aftermath where I think people handle themselves poorly and add trouble to whatever trouble made them break up. 

Yeah, I think the Reddit solution will lose its value over time. I think the important part is to find an argument (this applies to Hacker News too). 

I'd be interested to find another take on #69, I think that's one I came up with on my own through trial and error.

Thanks! 

It's not near the top of my mind either, but it is something I feel confident recommending to almost everybody, whereas I don't feel confident advising people on their financial investments. This is a small fruit, but it's low-hanging. 

These are useful criticisms! I'll caveat it later towards trusted friends, which I think cuts off much of the risks. 

Hi all!

I've been reading SSC for years, and took the plunge to read the sequences last year. It shifted a lot of my previous beliefs, and though I have a strong aversion to group identity, I suppose I'm an "aspiring rationalist" now!

About me: I work in Kelowna, BC. I've written for Quillette and Areo in the past, but my current writing output is confined to Letter (including this conversation on metarationality). I will probably do effortposts here eventually, but for now I'm mostly scanning for coronavirus information.

Any rationalists or effective altruists in BC, message me!

4Rana Dexsin
At least a decade ago, excessive aversion to group identity was recognized as a potentially undesirable aspect of the rationality community as it existed then, so you're in (past? present?) good company on that front…

Please pardon the late reply. I've modified the plan to two months each for a gratitude journal, cold showers, meditation, and cutting sugar. Thank you for sharing your own experiences!

Cold showers: I'm curious about the distance between how people swear by them and the inconclusive research - and, like you said, there's no obvious harm. When I've done them in the past I've noticed an energy boost in the hours afterwards, but I've been unable to push myself to keep them up when autumn hits. So this will be a summer experiment... (read more)

I got some good ideas from this list, and will report back with results.

Most of these seem like hacks to increase extroversion.

For #12, shouldn't three star reviews divide (one star + five star reviews), not be subtracted?

1adhiraj
Bump for results

This is helpful, thanks! Do you have a study or post in mind?

2kithpendragon
I consider it the greatest failure of my education that nobody ever taught me to take, organize, and archive notes of any kind. I've only just begun that life-long project in the last few months. That said, I'll share what thoughts I can on each of the experiments you've specified. Maybe I can at least point a finger in the right direction for you. Cold Showers This is the one I tried the longest ago, and had the least observable results. In the end I quit because my only noticable result was that I ended up hating the idea of getting in the shower. I recall being left with the impression that it would probably take more cold exposure than showers, and over a time period of some years to produce the promised biological changes anyway. YMMV A quick look on Google shows that the current claims about the benefits of cold showers are far more varied than I remember. When I tried it, there was some talk about brown fat production as a result of repeated exposure to cold temperatures leading to more aggressive metabolism and better cold tolerance. As I recall, that conversation converged on a much stronger genetic component than environmental. Now I'm seeing talk of blood flow, pain relief, immunological benefits and more. To me, that smacks of snake oil, but provided you avoid hypothermia I don't think you'd be doing yourself any obvious harm to try. Be sure ahead of time what benefits you want to see and how you intend to measure them, of course. Sugar My understanding is that we've known for several decades that sugar is the enemy of good health and dentistry, so there should be plenty of literature out there. At some point the sugar industry made successful efforts to blame our problems on fat instead, eventually kicking off the low-fat/fat-free craze that still seems to have a stranglehold on popular American diet advice. I recall some reporting early in 2016 (I think) about the influence the food lobby has on our dietary guidelines. By memory, the current rec

This seems correct to me. There are already self-improvement approaches to attempt and modify. Using epistemic rationality to achieve instrumental rationality is less about creating an RSI, and more about evaluating and improving upon existing SIs.