All of inemnitable's Comments + Replies

I was thinking of it more like: if there's a certain place I can get to in (roughly) 102 hours going 98 mph, and I want to get there in 100 hours, I need to speed up to 100 mph. Similarly, if there's a another place that I can get to in roughly 102 hours going 980 mph, and I want to get to that place in 100 hours, I need to speed up to 1000 mph.

I kind of wanted to clarify that in the original post but I hadn't really thought of a good way to express it at the time.

Furthermore, I think that your interpretation of the example even makes it more clear that it... (read more)

0Kindly
Oh, I see what you mean now. (Incidentally, Eliezer's original objection can be resolved by taking logs. Suddenly although the ratios 102/100 and 100/102 are not symmetrical, log(102/100) and log(100/102) are.)

I think in certain contexts it makes sense to think about the closeness of two quantities in terms of percentage difference. For example, let's say we're not just talking about the numbers 98 and 100, but the rates 98 mph and 100 mph. When we talk about speed, what we're actually interested in is usually not the speed itself but rather the amount of time it takes to cover a certain distance when traveling that speed.

So in this context, it makes sense to say that 98 mph is about 100 mph to the same degree that 980 mph is about 1000 mph--because they have the same marginal relation in the time required to cover a certain distance at those speeds.

0Kindly
But the relation you're describing is itself percentage-based! If you go from the rates to, say, the time it takes to cover a distance of 100 miles, then you get (roughly) 102 and 100 hours in the first case, and 10.2 and 10 hours in the second case. These only have the same relation if we use percentage differences or ratios to think about how close two times are.

If you assign an epsilon of disutility to a dust speck, then 3^^^3 * epsilon is way more than 1 person suffering 50 years of torture.

This doesn't follow. Epsilon is by definition arbitrary, therefore I could say that I want it to be 1 / 4^^^4 if I want to.

If we accept Eliezer's proposition that the disutility of a dust speck is > 0, this doesn't prevent us from deciding that it is < epsilon when assigning a finite disutility to 50 years of torture.

1JaySwartz
For a site promoting rationality this entire thread is amazing for a variety of reasons (can you tell I'm new here?). The basic question is irrational. The decision for one situation over another is influenced by a large number of interconnected utilities. A person, or an AI, does not come to a decision based on a single utility measure. The decision process draws on numerous utilities, many of which we do not yet know. Just a few utilities are morality, urgency, effort, acceptance, impact, area of impact and value. Complicating all of this is the overlay of life experience that attaches a function of magnification to each utility impact decision. There are 7 billion, and growing, unique overlays in the world. These overlays can include unique personal, societal or other utilities and have dramatic impact on many of the core utilities as well. While you can certainly assign some value to each choice, due to the above it will be a unique subjective value. The breadth of values do cluster in societal and common life experience utilities enabling some degree of segmentation. This enables generally acceptable decisions. The separation of the value spaces for many utilities preclude a single, unified decision. For example, a faith utility will have radically different value spaces for Christians and Buddhists. The optimum answer can be very different when the choices include faith utility considerations. Also, the circular example of driving around the Bay Area is illogical from a variety of perspectives. The utility of each stop is ignored. The movement of the driver around the circle does not correlate to the premise that altruistic actions of an individual are circular. For discussions to have utility value relative to rationality, it seems appropriate to use more advanced mathematics concepts. Examining the vagaries created when decisions include competing utility values or are near edges of utility spaces are where we will expand our thinking.