All of jbeshir's Comments + Replies

PredictionBook itself has a bunch more than three participants and functions as an always-running contest for calibration, although it's easy to cheat since it's possible to make and resolve whatever predictions you want. I also participate in GJ Open, which has an eternally ongoing prediction contest. So there's stuff out there where people who want to compete on running score can do so.

The objective of the contest was less to bring such an opportunity into existence as to see if it'd incentivise some people who had been "meaning&... (read more)

It's not a novel algorithm type, just a learning project I did in the process of learning ML frameworks, a fairly simple LSTM + one dense layer, trained on the predictions + resolution of about 60% of the resolved predictions from PredictionBook as of September last year (which doesn't include any of the ones in the contest). The remaining resolved predictions were used for cross-validation or set aside as a test set. An even simpler RNN is only very slightly less good, though.

The details of how the algorithm works are thus somewhat opaque but fr... (read more)

I'm concerned that the described examples of holding individual comments to high epistemic standards don't seem to necessarily apply to top-level posts, or linked content- one reason I think this is bad is that it is hard to precisely critique something which is not in itself precise, or which contains metaphor, or which contains example-but-actually-pointing-at-a-class writing where the class can be construed in various different ways.

Critique of fuzzy intuitions and impressions and feelings often involves fuzzy intuitions and impressions and fe... (read more)

4Duncan Sabien (Deactivated)
Strong agree. But I claim that I have seen myself and others attempt to do exactly that in response to damaging falsehoods, and that the response has been criticism of defensiveness. Like, the point wasn't to salvage personal status; the point was the original attack contained falsehoods, and this was dismissed as if the only activity taking place was a status fight. There was a bucket error going on, a bucket error that I think the ideal LW would have incentive slopes against, and encourage people to grow out of being vulnerable to. A quote that I believe I cited at the time, which feels relevant here, too: ... I believe that one of the foremost goals of LessWrong, at least from a social norms standpoint, is to become the sort of place where Draco could say "I think you should seriously consider the possibility that I didn't cast Colloportus as strongly as I could have, and that therefore Hermione counterspelling it isn't conclusive re: our relative magical strengths" and not get laughed off stage. And I think that mods who care about that and are unified in their commitment to it are a crucial ingredient. (Edit: have updated the specific quote in the post to more clearly point at what I'm actually advocating.)
6Duncan Sabien (Deactivated)
If I've given the impression that I object to and want to restrict fuzziness itself, then I'd like to clarify and reverse that impression ASAP. I think it's entirely possible to do fuzzy intuitions and impressions and feelings in a high-quality, high-epistemic way, and I think it's a critical part of the overall ecosystem of ideas; as an example I'd point to ~the entire corpus of work written by Anna Salamon. I don't think there's a conflict between freedom of fuzziness and high standards; the key is to flag things. If it's an intuition, note that it's an intuition; if there's no formal argumentation behind it, note that; if you think it would be resistant to update and also think that's correct, just be open about that up front. That way, people who want to engage know what they're dealing with, and know which lines of approach will be useful versus which will be futile. A sort of cheesy, empty example, since I'm trying to come up with it on the fly and there's no actual topic at hand: I'd upvote a comment like that in a heartbeat.
4Zvi
One thing I noticed by writing a blog slash posting here, is that the rules for posts and comments are importantly different. In comments you have discussion norms in a way you don't for main posts, and for main posts you have an on-the-record property that comments don't have. So when writing comments, one needs to be very careful about certain types of norms of fairness and politeness, and forms of argumentation, and be even more careful about rhetorical flourish. But in exchange there's an understanding that you're not held to your statements and positions (outside of the comment section itself, at least) the way a post would be. Thus, I draw a distinction that if I put something in a post it is 'fair game' to be quoted and held as my position in an outside context, whereas a comment doesn't do that, it's on the record but it's exploratory, and in several cases I've used it to say things in comments that I didn't feel comfortable saying in full posts. Right now I believe the way we handle issues with top-level posts is to not promote them to front page if there are problems, and only curate them if they're excellent, combined with lots of voting, which seems pretty good. When I do things that are against LW norms (which I occasionally do since all my blog posts are auto-posted here) I have no problem getting the message that I did that (whether or not I already knew that I'd done that) through these systems.

It might be nice to have a set of twenty EA questions, a set of twenty ongoing-academic-research questions, a set of twenty general tech industry questions, a set of twenty world politics questions for the people who like them maybe, and run multiple contests at some point which refine predictive ability within a particular domain, yeah.

It'd be a tough time to source that many, and I feel that twenty is already about the minimum sample size I'd want to use, and for research questions it'd probably require some crowdsourcing of interesting upcoming experiments to predict on, but particularly if help turns out to be available it'd be worth considering if the smaller thing works.

The usefulness of a model of the particular area was something I considered in choosing between questions, but I had a hard time finding a set of good non-personal questions which had very high value to model. I tried to pick questions which in some way depended on interesting underlying questions-for example, the Tesla one hinges on your ability to predict the performance of a known-to-overpromise entrepreneur in a manner that's more precise than either maximum cynicism or full trust, and the ability to predict ongoing ramp-up of manufacturing of tec... (read more)

1zulupineapple
I like the EA section. I think grouping people by specific goals/interests and preparing questions for those goals is the right way. If I cared about EA, then being able to predict which charities will start/stop being effective, before they actually implement whatever changes they're considering, would allow me to spend money more efficiently. It would be good not only to have an accurate personal model, but also to see other people with better models make those predictions, and know how reliable they really are. Likewise, we could have something about AGI, e.g. "which AGI safety organization will produce the most important work next year", so that we can fund them more effectively. Of course, "most important" is a bit subjective, and, also, there is a self-fulfilling component in this (if you don't fund an organization, then it won't do anything useful). But in theory being able to predict this would be a good skill, for someone who cares about AGI safety. Problem is, I don't really know what else we commonly care about (to be honest, I don't care about either of those much). I would also like this to be true, but I wonder if it really is. There is a very big difference between political questions and personal questions. I'd ask if someone has measured whether they experience any transfer between the two, but then I'm not even sure how to measure it.

I need to take a good look over what GJO has to offer here- I'm not sure if running a challenge for score on it would meet the goals here well (in particular I think it needs to be bounded in amount of prediction it requires in order to motivate doing it, and yet not gameable by just doing easy questions, and I'd like to be able to see what the probability assignments on specific questions were), but I've not looked at it closely with this in mind. I should at least hopefully be able to crib a few questions, or more.

Sounds good. I've looked over them and I could definitely use a fair few of those.

Thanks for letting me know! I've sent them a PM, and hopefully they'll get back to me once they're free.

jbeshir140

On the positive side, I think an experiment in a more centrally managed model makes sense, and group activity that has become integrated into routine is an incredibly good commitment device for getting the activity done- the kind of social technology used in workplaces everywhere that people struggle to apply to their other projects and self-improvement efforts. Collaborative self-improvement is good; it was a big part of what I was interested in for the Accelerator Project before that became defunct.

On the skulls side, though, I think the big risk factor ... (read more)

4Duncan Sabien (Deactivated)
Strong approval of all of this. The short answer is, I've spent tens of hours working more closely with the people who will actually be involved looking at all of the issues you raise here. We're all aware of things like the potential for emotional abuse and financial entrapment, and putting possible solutions into place, and I simply didn't feel the need to lengthen the post by another third to include stuff that's only half-in-progress and also largely too detailed/irrelevant to outsiders. (As a single bite-sized example: the "protect yourself" mantra is there to lay the baseline, but thus far we're also including a) explicit "non-conformity" training in bowing out of activities, coupled with strong norms of socially supporting people who "rule #1" themselves out, and clear ways to resolve anxiety or embarrassment and save face, b) weekly open-ended retrospectives that include room for anonymous feedback as well as public, c) two one-on-ones per week with me in which the number one focus is "how are you, can you be supported in any way," d) outside check-ins with someone completely unrelated to the house, to provide a fresh perspective and safe outlet, and e) regular Circling and pair debugging so that everyone knows "where everyone is" and has a cheap Schelling point for "I need help with X.")
jbeshir-10

Assuming by "it" you refer to the decision theory work, that UFAI is a threat, Many Worlds Interpretation, things they actually have endorsed in some fashion, it would be fair enough to talk about how the administrators have posted those things and described them as conclusions of the content, but it should accurately convey that that was the extent of "pushing" them. Written from a neutral point of view with the beliefs accurately represented, informing people that the community's "leaders" have posted arguments for some unus... (read more)

jbeshir00

The pattern matching's conclusions are wrong because the information it is matching on is misleading. The article implied that there was widespread belief that the future AI should be assisted, and this was wrong. Last I looked it still implied widespread support for other beliefs incorrectly.

This isn't an indictment of pattern matching so much as a need for the information to be corrected.

jbeshir60

It would be nice if you'd also address the extent to which it misrepresents other LessWrong contributors as thinking it is feasible or important (sometimes to the point of mocking them based on its own misrepresentation). People around LessWrong engage in hypothetical what-if discussions a lot; it doesn't mean that they're seriously concerned.

Lines like "Though it must be noted that LessWrong does not believe in or advocate the basilisk ... just in almost all of the pieces that add up to it." are also pretty terrible given we know only a fairly s... (read more)

The article is still terrible, but it's better than it was when Stross linked it. The greatest difficulty is describing the thing and the fuss accurately while explaining it to normal intelligent people without them pattern matching it to "serve the AI God or go to Hell". This is proving the very hardest part. (Let's assume for a moment 0% of them will sit down with 500K words of sequences.) I'm trying to leave it for a bit, having other things to do.

jbeshir10

First, examining the dispute over whether scalable systems can actually implement a distributed AI...

This is one reason why even Google's datastore, AFAIK, does not implement exactly this kind of architecture -- though it is still heavily sharded. This type of a datastructure does not easily lend itself to purely general computation, either, since it relies on precomputed indexes, and generally exploits some very specific property of the data that is known in advance.

That's untrue; Google App Engine's datastore is not built on exactly this architecture... (read more)

jbeshir60

Restricting the topic to distributed computation, the short answer is "essentially no". The rule is that you get at best linear returns, not that your returns diminish greatly. There are a lot of problems which are described as "embarassingly parallel", in that scaling them out is easy to do with quite low overhead. In general, any processing of a data set which permits it to be broken into chunks which can be processed independently would qualify, so long as you were looking to increase the amount of data processed by adding more proce... (read more)

0Bugmaster
I agree with what you are saying about scaling, as exemplified by sharded databases. But I am not convinced that any problem can be sharded that easily; as you yourself have said: This is one reason why even Google's datastore, AFAIK, does not implement exactly this kind of architecture -- though it is still heavily sharded. This type of a datastructure does not easily lend itself to purely general computation, either, since it relies on precomputed indexes, and generally exploits some very specific property of the data that is known in advance. And, as you also mentioned, even with these drastic tradeoffs you still get O(n log(n)). You mention Amazon (in addition to Google) as one example of a massively distributed system, but note that both Google and Amazon are already forced to build redundant data centers in separate areas of the Earth, in order to reduce network latency. This is important, because we aren't dealing with abstract tree nodes, but with physical machines, which have a certain volume (among other things). This means that, even in an absolutely ideal situation where we can ignore power, heat dissipation, and network congestion, you will still run into the speed of light as a limiting factor. In fact, high-frequency trading systems are already running up against this limit even today. This means that you'll run out of room to scale a lot faster than you run out of atoms of the Earth.
jbeshir10

This model trivially shows that censoring espousing violence is a bad idea, if and only if you accept the given premise that censorship of espousing violence is a substantial PR negative. This premise is a large part of what the dispute is about, though.

Not everyone is you; a lot of people feel positively about refusing to provide a platform to certain messages. I observe a substantial amount of time expended by organisations on simply signalling opposition to things commonly accepted as negative, and avoiding association with those things. LW barring espo... (read more)

jbeshir30

I think in this context, "asking about" might include raising for neutral discussion without drawing moral judgements.

The connection I see between them is that if someone starts neutral discussion about a possible action, actions which would reasonably be classified as advocacy have to be permitted if the discussion is going to progress smoothly. We can't discuss whether some action is good or bad without letting people put forward arguments that it is good.

3gjm
There's certainly a connection. I'm not convinced the connection is so intimate that if censoring one is a good idea then so is censoring the other.
jbeshir20

I think that a discussion in which only most people are mindkilled can still be a fairly productive one on these questions in the LW format. LW is actually one of the few places where you would get some people who aren't mindkilled, so I think it is actually good that it achieves this much.

They seem fairly ancillary tor LW as a place for improving instrumental or epistemic rationality, though. If you think testing the extreme cases of your models of your own decision-making is likely to result in practical improvements in your thinking, or just want to tes... (read more)

2wedrifid
Unfortunately the non mindkilled people would also have to be comfortable simply ignoring all the mindkilled people so that they can talk among themselves and build the conversation toward improved understanding. That isn't something I see often. More often the efforts of the sane people are squandered trying to beat back the tide of crazy.
jbeshir20

Ah, I see. That makes sense. They weren't actually asked to remove the whole of the quoting, just to remove some unrelated lines, which has been complied with, so there's no unimplemented requests as far as I know.

Of course, it might just have not asked for because having it pulled at this point could cause a worse mess than leaving it up, with more reputation damage. Some third party moderator could request it to avoid that issue, but I think at this point the horse is long gone and going to the work of closing the barn door might not be worth it.

It'd be reasonable for a hypothetical moderator taking an appropriate action to request they replace the whole thing with a summary, though; that makes sense.

jbeshir90

Quoting without permission was clearly a mistake, but describing it as a "rather clear privacy agreement" is not particularly apt; Freenode policy on this is written as strong advice rather than "rules" as such, and the channel itself had no clear policy. As it was, it was mostly a social convention violation. I thus have to disagree that an indefinite ban for ignorance of advice or an unwritten policy would be an appropriate or optimum response. What's happened so far- the person being corrected quite sharply here and on the channel, a... (read more)

3wedrifid
I'd end "indefinite" the moment the offending material was redacted with apologies. Stop breaking the rule, stop being excluded. Continue breaking the rule, stay excluded.
jbeshir80

"The morally (and socially) appropriate thing to do" would be to learn the difference between a chat and a public forum before jumping to hasty conclusions.

The conclusions drawn, while erroneous, were erroneous for reasons unrelated to the difference between an IRC channel and a public forum. They were not wrong to think that they were being insulted because they were wrong to post logs. Strongly establishing that they made an error in quoting from the channel here does not establish that their issue is groundless.

Conflation of issues like thi... (read more)

jbeshir140

This is just so utterly over the top I'm mystified that it was taken as anything but ritual insulting for the purpose of bonding/hazing in an informal group.

You've been lucky to avoid seeing jokes like this more often when moving around the Internet, then. Over the top jokes at the expense of minority groups are popular when representing actual opinions, not just as jokes to people you already know, particularly in communities where those opinions are accepted norms and the group in question is an acceptable target. The desire to score points often lead... (read more)

jbeshir120

It's true that with all the information available now, a simple private message would have cleared it up. It's also true, though, that with all the information available now, simply not saying those specific lines would have avoided the whole issue in the first place. It was not realistic to expect either party to have known that at the time.

It isn't reasonable to expect someone who feels they have been insulted, and who has already responded in public with complaints like "what a disgusting thing to say", and observed everyone fail to care, to g... (read more)

jbeshir160

No one has ever prefaced such a statement with "for your purposes." There is a reason for that.

It actually occurs fairly often. A good reason to prefix such a statement with "for your purposes", is to indicate that modelling a statement as true is effective for achieving your purposes, without getting into a more complex discussion of whether it actually is true or not.

For example, "for your purposes, the movement of objects is described by Newtonian physics". The statement after "for your purposes" is ill-defined... (read more)

jbeshir490

Took the survey; doing all the extra tests for the last few extra questions was fairly interesting, not having done many personality tests or taken online IQ tests before.

jbeshir30

This is interesting, particularly the idea of comparing wage growth against welfare growth predicting success of "free money" welfare. I agree that it seems reasonably unlikely that a welfare system paying more than typical wages, without restrictions conflicting with the "detached from work" principle, would be sustainable, and identifying unsustainable trends in such systems seems like an interesting way to recognise where something is going to have to change, long-term.

I appreciate the clarification; it provides what I was missing in... (read more)

8Viliam_Bur
I have heard this idea proposed, and many people object against it saying that it would take away the dignity of those people. In other words, some people seem to think that "basic human rights" include not just things necessary for survival, but also some luxury and perhaps some status items (which then obviously stop being status items, if everyone has them). In theory, yes. However, as a former teacher I have seen parents completely fail at this. Data point: A mother came to school and asked me to tell her 16 year old daughter, my student, to not spend all her free time at internet. I did not understand WTF she wanted. She explained to me that as a computer science teacher her daughter will probably regard me an authority about computers, so if I ask her to not use the computer all day long, she wil respect me. This was her last hope, because as a mother she could not convince her daughter to go away from the computer. To me this seemed completely insane. First, the teachers in given school were never treated as authorities on anything; they were usually treated like shit both by students and school administration (a month later I left that school). Second, as a teacher I have zero influence on what my students do outside school, she as a mother is there; she has many possible ways to stop her daughter from interneting... for instance to forcibly turn off the computer, or just hide the computer somewhere while her daughter is at school. But she should have started doing something before her daughter turned 16. If she does not know that, she is clearly unqualified to have children; but there is no law against that. OK, this was an extreme example, but during my 4-years teaching carreer I have seen or heard from colleagues about many really fucked up parents; and those people were middle and higher social class. This leads me to very pesimistic views, not shared by people who don't have the same experience and are more free to rationalize this away. I think tha
jbeshir00

It is true that in the long run, things could work out worse with a guarantee of sufficient food/supplies for everyone. I think, though, that this post answers the wrong question; the question to answer in order to compare consequences is how probable it is to be better or worse, and by what amounts. Showing that it "could" be worse merely answers the question "can I justify holding this belief" rather than the question "what belief should I hold". The potential benefits of a world where people are guaranteed food seem quite h... (read more)

8Viliam_Bur
As I wrote, it depends on many things. I can imagine a situation where this would work; I can also imagine a situation where it would not. As I also wrote, I can imagine such system functioning well if people who don't work get enough money to survive, but people who do work get significantly more. Data point: In Slovakia many uneducated people don't work, because it wouldn't make economical sense for them. Their wage, minus traveling expenses, would be only a little more, in some cases even less than their welfare. What's the point of spending 8 hours in work if in result you have less money? They cannot get higher wages, because they are uneducated and unskilled; and in Slovakia even educated people get relatively little money. The welfare cannot be lowered, because the voters on the left would not allow it. The social pressure stops working if too many people in the same town are doing this; they provide moral support for each other. We have villages where unemployment is over 80% and people have already accommodated to this; after a decade of such life, even if you offer them a work with a decent wage, they will not take it, because it would mean walking away from their social circle. This would not happen in a sane society, but it does happen in the real life. Other European countries seem to fare better in this aspect, but I can imagine the same thing happening there in a generation or two. A generation ago most people would probably not predict this situation in Slovakia. I also can't imagine the social pressure to work on the "generation Facebook". If someone spends most of their day on Facebook or playing online multiplayer games, who exactly is going to socially press them? Their friends? Most of them live the same way. Their parents? The conflict between generations is not the same thing as peer pressure. And the "money without work is a basic human right" meme also does not help. It could work in a country where the difference between average wage (e
jbeshir10

The problem with this argument is that there are costs to causing things to happen via spreading misinformation; you're essentially biasing other people doing expected utility evaluations by providing inaccurate data to them. People drawing conclusions based on inaccurate data would have other effects; in this example, some people would avoid flying, suffering additional costs. People are also likely to continue to support the goals the conspiracy theory pushes towards past the point that they actually would have the greater expected utility without the co... (read more)

1vi21maobk9vp
I actually agree with most of your argument and, probably, with a conclusion. I just wanted to show shades of gray omitted in the original post. Actually, I can restate the argument I quoted to be technically true. Or I can restate it as a full-blown conspiracy theory. They can still be made quite close from the point of view of what actually happens, though. I think that the lightest reframing are net-positive perspective changes (but somewhat risky), by the way. Scenario A. Aircraft manufacturers know full well what is needed to prevent most accidents - both ones now classified as technical failures caused by bad maintenance and those claimed to be human error that are sometimes actually technical malfunctions (succesfully covered up). They don't implement many of the known-to-them safety features because of the cost, and sometimes deliberately omit cheap safety features to increase renewal of aircraft fleet. They reduce robustness slowly over time in hope that public would get fed up with disasters and require "something to be done". They know already how to implement things that would be required by new statutes but implementing state-mandated safety features will be a good excuse to increase prices a lot - with a big increase in profit margins. Scenario B. Technically, the very ability of a plane to be turned into collision course with a well-known big non-moving object (be it a mountain, WTC or anything) is a failure of safety measures and navigation. It should be possible to deliver such protection, and if it is not possible yet, it should be the top priority, way above "Internet on board" or such things. If considering 9/11 a navigation failure makes you want not to fly - well, there are many causes that ultimately lead to risky manoeuvrs. If they still can lead to a disaster in the XXI century, shifting blame doesn't help - you either accept the risk or not. Scenario C. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_%C3%9Cberlingen_Mid-Air_Collision illustrates more
jbeshir20

Looking at the press association example, I think that one problem here is that similar ideas are being blurred, and given a single probability instead of separate ones.

A lot of the theories involving press/politician association involve conspiracy to conceal specific, high impact information from the public, or similar levels of dysfunction of the media. Most of these are low probability (I can't think of any counterexamples offhand); as far as I know either no or a very small percentage of such theories have been demonstrated as true over time.

Different ... (read more)