All of Kai-o-logos's Comments + Replies

But P(E|D) is not 100% by any definition. Conditional probabilities are only 100% if

D-->E. And if that was true, why does this argument exist?

I'm not saying that the frequentist statistical belief logic actually goes like that above. What I'm saying is that is how many people tend to wrongly interpret such statistics to define their own null hypothesis in the way I outlined in the post.

As I've said before, the MOST common problem is not the actual statistics, but how the ignorant interpret that statistics. I am merely saying, I would prefer Bayesian statistics to be taught because it is much harder to botch up and read our own interpretation into it. (For one, it is ruled by a relatively easy fo... (read more)

4jake987722
But that's not right. The problem that your burden of proof example describes is a problem of priors. The theist and the atheist are starting with priors that favor different hypotheses. But priors (notoriously!) don't enter into the NHST calculus. Given two statistical models, one of which is a nested subset of the other (this is required in order to directly compare them), there is not a choice of which is the null: the null model is the one with fewer parameters (i.e., it is the nested subset). It isn't up for debate. There are other problems with NHST--as you point out later in the post, some people have a hard time keeping straight just what the numbers are telling them--but the issue I highlighted above isn't one of them for me. Yes. As you noted in your OP, forcing this pair of hypotheses into a strictly statistical framework is awkward no matter how you slice it. Statistical hypotheses ought to be simple empirical statements.

"This doesn't seem to be a part of standard Christian or Jewish theology,"

~Actually even if there is no outright statement in the Bible, through the years, it is commonly accepted that human supremacy is stated in Genesis 1:26 - "Then God said, 'Let us make mankind in our image'". Man is created in God's image - making him superior to all. Also in Gen. 3:22 - “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil". Man is like a God - the only difference is that they are not immortal.

Not necessarily my opinion, just what I believe the theology says, and what I have heard from theist friends that the theology says.

1JoshuaZ
But both religions also have angels which are depicted often as in some ways superior to humans. (Incidentally, I suspect that Gen 1:26 was originally intended to be more literal, with a host of deities of roughly human-looking deities creating creatures that looked like themselves.)

Quite honestly, I think a bigger problem is theists assuming that P(E|D) = 100%. That given a deity or more exists, they automatically assume the world would turn out like this - I would actually argue the opposite, that the number is very low.

Even assuming an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent God, he could have still, I argue at least, have made the choice to remove our free will "for our own good". Even if P(E|D) is high, in no way is it close to 100%.

Furthermore, you can never assume a 100% probability!!! (http://yudkowsky.net/rational/technical). You could go to rationalist hell for that!

4[anonymous]
Conditional probabilities are allowed to be 100%, because they are probability ratios. In particular, P(A|A) is 100% by definition.
3[anonymous]
The reason they are assuming P(E|D) = 100% is probably because they are only envisioning what one particular god would do, not the whole search space: they are asking "What would God do?" instead of "What would X percentage of the zillion possible gods in the search space do?" The hard part is getting them to realize that P(E|D) includes Zeus, Loki, and the FSM as well as Jehovah.

that is sad - I know a friend in rural Nebraska who is in a similar predicament (college) and he says if it wasn't for LW, he might have just concluded that people were just un-awesome.

It is sad that demographics limits potential awesome-seekers. That is another reason why I admire Eliezer so much for making this online community.

Lukeprog's explanation about the ancestral setting makes sense, but I still believe that modern capacity for spreading information is great. Take a modern college setting - Person A asks B out, gets rejected - she gossips to all her friends, goes all around the college, reducing the number further possible dates.

I am not trying to say that said fear is rational, because the possibility that she is that much of a gossip is relatively low, but I am merely saying that when huge negative utilities are in consideration, it should not be taken lightly. When th... (read more)

9NancyLebovitz
I'm not sure about the ancestral environment explanation. On one hand, you're relatively stuck with the people in your tribe, but on the other hand, they can't afford to throw away useful people. I haven't heard anything about how status and harassment work in modern hunter-gatherer tribes, so I don't know whether the costs of mistakes are higher there or in modern high-tech societies. One clue might come from the various situations of deaf people. There are (were?) a couple of isolated communities where 1 in 6 people were deaf. Everyone knew sign language, and hearing or deafness wasn't considered an important feature. Another clue comes from social groups and families. It can take a lot for an obnoxious person to be pressured or ostracized-- it's socially cheaper to keep them around than to deal with their difficult habits. I believe that one aspect of modern wealth is that it's more feasible to throw people away by various means of exclusion-- there are plenty of more people available immediately. This wouldn't have been true for hunter-gatherers.

Part of the great trouble of being a rationalist is the great, great trouble of finding like minded people. I am thrilled at the news of such successful meetups taking place - the reason rationalists don't have the impact they should is poor organization

On the other hand, I really like what Eliezer says about courage. It is one thing to preach and repeat meaningless words about being courageous and facing the Truth, but if we are too afraid to look like a fool in society - who says we won't be too afraid to speak the Truth in the scientific community?

0Dorikka
I'm parsing the last paragraph as "Getting Things Done is important -- you can talk about courage, but you actually have to use courage for it to matter." Is this accurate?
0MartinB
You can start with some truths.

Dust specks – I completely disagree with Eliezer’s argument here. The hole in Yudkowsky’s logic, I believe, is not only the curved utility function, but also the main fact that discomfort cannot be added like numbers. The dust speck incident is momentary. You barely notice it, you blink, its gone, and you forget about it for the rest of your life. Torture, on the other hand, leaves lasting emotional damage on the human psyche. Futhermore, discomfort is different than pain. If, for example the hypothetical replaced the torture with 10000 people getting a no... (read more)

4loqi
When you say that pain is "fundamentally different" than discomfort, do you mean to imply that it's a strictly more important consideration? If so, your theory is similar to Asimov's One Law of Robotics, and you should stop wasting your time thinking about "discomfort", since it's infinitely less important than pain. Stratified utility functions don't work.

On Less Wrong, I found thoroughness. Society today advocates speed over effectiveness - 12 year old college students over soundly rational adults. People who can Laplace transform diff-eqs in their heads over people who can solve logical paradoxes. In Less Wrong, I found people that could detach themselves from emotions and appearances, and look at things with an iron rationality.

I am sick of people who presume to know more than they do. Those that "seem" smart rather than actually being smart.

People on less wrong do not seem to be something they are not ~"Seems, madam! nay it is; I know not 'seems.'" (Hamlet)