All of Lavode's Comments + Replies

Lavode00

Not just notes. - All written instructions on how to do spells above a certain level just flat out fail unless someone explains the spell to you in person at least once. Which has to be a mind hack, and if you are willing to alter peoples minds to remove the risk of idiots or madmen blowing up the planet/opening the gates of hell/ect, then picking this specific modification is very.. odd.

Hold up.. checking assumptions. Can anyone think of a way for the edict of merlin to do what it does without tampering with peoples minds?

4[anonymous]
Trivial. Someone explaining to you in person is the same as someone authorizing you to use a piece of software. You can still speak the words of the spell, still do the sacrifices, but the computer is just not going to listen to your commands unless you've been given those privileges.
2bogdanb
If by “tampering” you mean just “permanently modifying”, the Source of Magic (TM) could just watch wizards’ minds(1) to detect when they’re writing in sufficient detail(2) high-level(3) spell descriptions, and enchant the written artifact.(4) (1:) I can’t think of a way it would act the way it does—i.e., trigger wand-less and wordless spells, as well as accidental magic—without reading wizards’ minds at all times (or tampering with their minds at birth), anyway, at least not while following Harry’s genetic marker theory. (2:) It needs to act only when the description tells you what to do, not what it does. Presumably it lets a historian describe what wondrous feats Merlin did as long as he didn’t describe how the spell was cast. (3:) I’m really curious how that works. It’s clear that some spells are “harder” to cast, and some are “more powerful” than others (not sure if the two are perfectly correlated), but AFAIK it’s never described what that really means, except for trivial things like complex wand patterns and not-really-helpful stuff like “only first-year student magic level”. (4:) Basilisks turn you to stone when you look at them, the Mirror-of-I-can’t-remember-who-it-was showed you what you wanted when you looked at it, so it’s clear that magic effects can be triggered by looking at the magical item. (4b:) Exactly what “written artifact” means would be kind of hard to figure out. If it also applies to non-textual artifacts—sound recordings, encoding a description with smells and colors, planting a row of trees of two species to spell the description in ASCII—then it’s really complicated. It might just look at what people intend to do, but then it would be vulnerable to complicated attacks like encrypting the description with a key, giving the encrypted text to a scribe who knows the described spell but doesn’t know the key nor what the encrypted text is, and asking them to write the encrypted text, then writing the key separately—or even unintentional r

Back up one step further: what evidence do we have that the Interdict actually exists? As opposed to, say, all powerful wizards simply having the same inclination toward secrecy and self-discovery. How did Quirrell put it...

The fools who can't resist meddling are killed by the lesser perils early on, and the survivors all know that there are secrets you do not share with anyone who lacks the intelligence and the discipline to discover them for themselves! Every powerful wizard knows that!

I've never received the impression that wizards powerful enough ... (read more)

Lavode60

This is daft. Horcruxes are not the only available means of life extention, which voids the entire rest of the debate. There is the stone, whatever he can think up independently and worst come to worst, from harrys point of view, the odds of him, personally, dying of old age before the muggles come up with a hack to fix ageing is very low. 170 years, starting the clock in 1980 gets him to 2150!

0chaosmosis
None of those other options have a very high probability and all of them will lose lives while they are being discovered. At the very least, Harry should implement a mass Horcrux program and at the same time or after its implementation he should also continue to search for better ways to make people immortal.
4MixedNuts
2120-ish given Time Turner abuse. Edit: Oh wait, that's already included in your 170-year figure, isn't it?
Lavode70

also, unlike the case of an AI where you have to avoid crippling it, lest it becomes pointless to build it in the first place, using unbreakable wows as a punishment for grand crimes against humanity means that the restraints can be nearly abritarily harsh. The people writing the wows have no need to preserve the decision space they leave their victim or respect their autonomy. TLDR: Voldemort would not be able to spend decades thinking of ways around the wow, because doing so would violate any sensibly formulated wow. (stray toughts, sure, you have to permit that, or the wow kills in a day. Sitting down and working at it? No.)

Lavode90

I mentioned this in the TVtropes thread, but Merlin did not think through his interdict all that well - If you are going to compromise everyones mental integrity to end a cycle of magical destruction, then limiting information spread is an asinie way to do it - it would make infinitely more sense to subject all wizards to a magical prohibition against large scale destruction and killing. Phrasing it so that it wards agaist Dunning-Kruger fueled magical accidents without shutting down experimentation entirely is an interesting exercise, but should be possible.

4MugaSofer
It's possible that the Interdict is a natural property of the Source of Magic, and was swept up in the legend of Merlin as time passed. We have no real evidence for a time when people could record spells indefinitely, AFAIK.
4Tripitaka
I understood Merlins Interdict to be interfering with The Source of Magic, not with "everyones mental integrity", which would seem much much harder to do. Magic seems to function by checking prerequisites, like "waved magical active stick in spatial pattern X", "said wingardium leviosa with exact pronounciation Y"- Just add to this list of prerequisites of sufficiently powerfull spells a call of a function which checks wether the user is authorized; if not, check wether user should be authorized. If ve is, add to list of authorized user, if not, deny.

Frankly, we don't know enough about why Merlin did what he did to judge his action either way -- we don't know what danger was being foreseen, we don't know the limitations of his own powers. There's really no sense in criticizing him or praising him at this point of time - we lack crucial information.

Lavode90

Quidditch really nags me, because the team you are playing with has nearly zero relevance. And it is so unnessesary, even if Rowling desired a position on the team of key importance, the way the snitch works is still wrong - If it was worth zero points, but catching it ended the game, then seekers are still key, they just cannot win entirely on their own anymore, and the job would require more than just "flies fast",

[anonymous]180

Or if catching the snitch gave you the option of ending the game or of having it re-released after a short random time. That way a seeker of the losing team could still engage in snitch denial other than trying to crash his counterpart into the ground.

1kilobug
To be honest there is still a small impact of the rest of the team on the game : the Beaters can use the Bludgers against the seekers (so they do interact with seekers and affect their chance of catching the Snitch), and there are occasional cases in which the Quaffle point difference is high enough so the Snitch doesn't decide the game (the final of the World Cup in cannon). But yes, since the first time I heard about the rules of Quidditch, I was "gah, that just doesn't make sense - make the Snitch worth much less, like 30, at the very least".
Lavode90

Dumbledore explicitly warded her against mental interference as soon as he got her back - Which is presumably why Quirrell didnt use the groundhog day attack again. He only got one try to sway her this time, and while his mental model was more accurate based on the data from the last go.. nope, fail.

2[anonymous]
You're right.
Lavode90

.. Not nessesarily. I just had an amusing thought. The number one use of polyjuice is quite obviously as a sex toy, right? Depending on how deep the transformation goes, it is entirely possible that the genetic lines of wizardry if anyone ever tested them would be enormously confusing, and a lot of squibs are technically the decendants of Jane Russell and Rudolph Valentino.

Lavode10

"Uncertain, ask again later". Oh, all right. : I am fairly confident that whatever models the various masterminds in play have of him are inaccurate and have been getting rapidly more so ever since he had his little chat with Harry about Lily. I suspect that he is done with being anyones pawn. Moving into blind guessing territory, I wouldnt be surprised if his actual plot is to walk off with the philosophers stone in order to duplicate it, or something else completely unrelated to the political maneuverings.

Lavode10

Re: the debt. I think Lucius may have been playing very high speed chess when he picked the amount. The point isnt to have Harry in debt to him, the point is to afford ex-deatheaters loyal to Lucius the oppertunity to trade in a blood debt to Harry for a monetary one to him. If this is so, the debts are likely to be paid off long before Harry can set any money making schemes in motion. - This would count as a downside to being in debt to Lucius - He cannot refuse cash in lieu as long as he is a debtor.

The ending note of that trial couldnt have been more p... (read more)

Eponymuse120

I think Lucius may have been playing very high speed chess when he picked the amount. The point isnt to have Harry in debt to him, the point is to afford ex-deatheaters loyal to Lucius the oppertunity to trade in a blood debt to Harry for a monetary one to him.

I don't think so. It's clear from his reaction that he did not want Harry to accept the trade:

It was clear that Lucius Malfoy had not been expecting that reply.

And later:

"I withdraw my offer!" shouted the Lord of Malfoy. "I will not accept the debt to House Potter in payment,

... (read more)
7mjr
I rate it likely that she'll read it. Unlikely she'll babble. But she's no Occlumens. (She should strive to be real quick, though.)
Lavode60

Harry probably wont call in any blood debts himself, but any former deatheathers with substantial spare coin will jump at the possibility to get out from under a debt to Harry by giving Lucius money, so that 60.000 might well be paid in full before he makes it back to hogwarts, let alone sets any money making schemes in progress.

3SkyDK
A possibility. Though for some of the lesser wealthy houses that is probably not the first option. For some a blood debt might also be a good way to join Harry's side if he seems to start winning. For the opposite reason a lot might do nothing because they expect Lucius to crush him before he makes claim to his debts. Free-riding and buck-passing are frequent solutions in the political game.
Lavode280

It makes a great deal of sense as a purely political ploy. Harry just greatly strengthened the legend of the boy who lived, and since that is the result, Lucius is likely to suspect that it was also the intent.

Lavode210

The problem is that he did not - he treated them as a passive audience without any consideration of how they view him. So now some of them have reached the same conclusion as Lucius, and think he is a case of bodysnatching. Possession is a real possibility in the universe he inhabits, and he is showing all the signs. That is quite likely to get him killed by people with the best of intentions. At best, I am expecting kidnapping attempts aimed at extracting voldemort from his host. Also, Harry really should listen to Malfoy. Scaring Lucius is not a good idea.

Lavode00

Right, Lucius is no longer the only powerful and intelligent wizard who thinks that Harry is Voldemort. If any of the others are inclined towards the public good they are probably now plotting his demise. This does not count as a win.

Lucius.. Probably thinks that the entire point of this ploy was to increase the legend of "the boy who lived" and is kicking himself for playing into it. On the other hand, he did get compensated very well.

Other likely consequences: Hermonie is going to read his note as soon as she gets back on something resembling... (read more)

Lavode200

The simplest reason is that Quirrelmort is simply not in a position to indulge any sadistic impulses the way Voldemort was. He spends hours each day conked out completely, and he has no powerbase to retreat to. Overt malice of the kind Voldemort practiced would very rapidly earn him an adavra. There are quite a few other possible reasons - for one thing, Tom Riddle is not running on the same wetware anymore, and his original brain might have been miswired in a way that did not carry over, or heck, the original Quirrel could have been very calm and unflappable, so now Quirrelmort just cannot get a good temper tantrum going no matter how hard he tries.

4buybuydandavis
True, he doesn't have the power base to openly attack anyone and everyone in the wizarding world. But Quirrell is a wizard with power dwarfing all others except Dumbledore. He could indulge as much sadism as he wants on random people in spots across the globe. If he has the appetite, he could do it. And with obliviate, he could probably arrange to have Minerva as his sex slave with minimal risk.
Lavode00

They dont need to be public - a roomful of aristocrats are exceedingly unlikely to submit to collective obliviation, and there are enough people and enough factions present that anything they all hear is not going to stay secret.

There are tradeoffs here - he can spill the beans on the dementors and the true patronus and probably come out with his reputation strengthened if he plays it right, - Patronus the dementor in the room out of existance, and then letting the wizengamot "compel" an explanation out of him would be wieved as the wizengamot s... (read more)

Lavode00

That would antagonize the wizengamot very, very badly. Not a good long term strategy, even if you intend to dissolve it. Destroying it, explaining, and letting them work through the logical implications on their own suffices. If most people lose the ability to halt dementors at all, and a few people gain the ability to destroy them outright, they are no longer usable tools of enforcement, and disposing of them all together becomes quite urgent.

Lavode-10

He can open by patronusing the dementor present into oblivion, after that, everything he says will be at least thought about, and once considered, you cannot unknow any of this stuff except by obliterating yourself.

8wedrifid
Obliterating? That's perhaps overkill!
1Normal_Anomaly
This works too, but I think you meant obliviating :) Other than that, good point. Destroying the dementor present would be a good opening move for several different strategies--anything that requires him to be taken very seriously, really.
0Carinthium
Okay, as far as I can tell that works...
Lavode30

I just realized something. The wizarding world has a strong Taboo against the free sharing of information. Harry has an entire hieracy of explosive insights he can read into the wizengamots records untill they let Hermonie go to get him to shut up Okay, this actually needs him to bluff about having a fallback that publishes if he perishes, but consider:

If he tells them about the true patronus and the true nature of dementors, the regular patronus stops working. This destroys askaban.Not enough?

If he explains the silver / gold arbritage scheme the economy o... (read more)

0Sniffnoy
Do we know that the Wizengamot's records are public knowledge, and that he can say whatever he wants while speaking before the Wizengamot? I assume they at least have some procedure to close discussion against a speaker's will.
DanArmak100

untill they let Hermonie go to get him to shut up

Or until they hit him with a Quietus to shut him up. Much simpler.

4Carinthium
The trouble is that from the typical wizard's perspective this doesn't work- they're much more likely to irattionally dismiss it as the babblings of a desperate child.
1pedanterrific
Harry doesn't even know Alchemy exists as a discipline, as far as I know. Or are you thinking of Potion-Making?
Lavode00

Bluffing would be dangerous - if he doesnt actually publish the information, killing him makes the problem go away. And if he commits to "Tell the world, make dementors useless" Then the wizengamot entire are simply more information pathways, and are in fact far better ones than just about anyone else he could tell because it is much harder to obliviate them than Jane Q Wizard,.

0Desrtopa
If he doesn't get a chance to arrange, say, for messages to be sent out in the event of his death or incapacitation, then his best bet might be to tell them, but if it looks like he can get away with it it might be better for him to imply that he's already told some people, but not reveal who. That way they will conclude they can no longer rely on dementors, but the secret doesn't actually escape. He did already give Hermione that letter which she could use to find out the secret, but it's probably too late for her to make any use of it. It would have been a good idea for her to read it as soon as she was told that she was accused of murder, except she probably never had the chance to do that, and anyway she won't have a wand in Azkaban.
Lavode30

The blunt force way to play it is to just expecto patronum the dementor into oblivion and go "Would you like me to explain how I did that"? They would almost certainly make him do so, veritas serum, legimens and the whole nine yards. And once they know, they are fucked. I dont think the wizengamot would go for collective obliviation of the events of the trial, so once the cat is out of the bag, its not going back in.

2Desrtopa
I wasn't that happy with that plan to begin with, but the more I've thought about it, the more I've started to like the elegant simplicity of it. He'd get tremendous political turmoil, and possibly throw suspicion on himself with respect to the Bellatrix breakout, but he can still deny that, and they've got another suspect anyway. At the same time, he has a chance to sink Azkaban in one shot. I'm calling this one the Damn The Torpedoes Option. In his place though, I wouldn't necessarily encourage them to find out how I did it (he can resist veritaserum and leglimency,) but I'd tell them that it's already too late for them to stop the dissemination of the spell, thus rendering dementors and azkaban obsolete.
Lavode00

Eh, she is a first year at hogwarts - from their perspective, what is she going to do with it? Apparate out?

6Desrtopa
Just because they don't expect her to be able to accomplish much with it doesn't mean that they wouldn't stop it as a matter of policy. You don't let a character witness walk up and hand anything to a prisoner on the stands without clearance. A whole lot of plans proposed here seem to rely on the assumption that Harry can treat the Wizengamot as a captive audience who'll humor any attempt he makes to sway them or prove his points. The Wizengamot is a highly authoritarian court of law, and Harry is a first year student. They have little incentive to humor him about anything.
Lavode30

The wizengamot isnt remotely like any extant political institution at all. The line of Merlin is reminicient of the 5 good emperors of imperial rome more than anything else, and the wizengamot itself is both largely hereditary and scarily unlimited by either law or custom. Politicians going into a frenzy of popular rage? That is a paralel. Other than that, not seeing it so much.

9NancyLebovitz
Combination of politicians going into self-amplifying rage and an irresponsible legal system that gives too much weight to self-amplifying rage.
Lavode00

Most of the proposed plans have the same flaw: They require Harry to act not merely as a precocious child, but as a full on dark lord. This is /not clever/ because the obvious conclusion to draw is that he is either someones puppet or an outright case of bodysnatching. Either invites people who are otherwise potential allies to Adavra him on sight and provides political cover for those who would be his enemy regardless if they choose to kill him. Harrys dark side reasoning might not care about this, of course, but still let us consider options that dont le... (read more)

3DanArmak
It might just as well be seen as Merlin expressing displeasure with the current carrier-on of the line when he protests a legal vote of the Wizengamot. Omens are usually interpreted opportunistically. Terry Pratchett, Interesting Times
4Vaniver
Given that Dumbledore is on Hermione's side, I'm not sure that destroying his badge of office would be a helpful move.
Lavode-10

... That isnt actually a weakness in the plan, you know. He could stand up, explain the entire theory, slowly walk over to Hermonie, hand her his wand, and ask her to destroy the dementor as proof of her righteousness and disbelief would probably keep everyone (except Dumbledore. Note: Ask him to not intervene) from interfering right up until the point where she vaporizes the dementor. After which they would be unable to deny the truth of the theorem, and be fucked.

3Desrtopa
They might let him stand up and explain his theory of how dementors work without interrupting him, I'm pretty certain they wouldn't let him walk over to the defendant and hand her a wand.
Lavode00

Point. Correction: It would eventually convince Lucius that Harry isnt pottermort once the implications have been worked out and someone else indepenantly verifies what the nessesary mindset is - likely by legimens on Hermonie. It still makes Harry and Herm indespensible right away.

Lavode20

Because there is no way Voldemort would be able to cast the true patronus. The nessesary mindset is much to altrusitic. Hmm. Since Hermonie could likely also master the true patronus, wrecking the animal form of the spell for everyone probably shields her from excessive punishment in general as well, at least until such time as a significant number of people other than her and Harry master it. The optimal version of this play is to have Hermonie destroy the dementor present´, but that requires enough time to prep H. Timeturner?

0DanArmak
I'm not even completely sure that's true. Maybe Voldemort could cast it with a sufficiently strong-willed rejection of death for himself (and for his allies), and out of hatred of dementors=death, if he knew how.
4Asymmetric
We think it's likely that Voldemort can't cast it, but Lucius and the Wizengamot do not, and the only information they have regarding it being a sign of altruism is Harry's word on the subject. It's even more of a stretch to say that Lucius would be convinced that Harry is not Voldemort, because the Patronus alone isn't enough evidence.
Lavode140

Step one: Stand up and loudly explain how a patronus works, and what a dementor actually is, under the guise of arguing for a diffrent punisment - This will make the entire wizengamot, including the aurors controling the dementor present incapable of casting expecto patronum. Destroy the dementor before it eats anyone. Now the wizengamot has to shut down azkaban (Because the secret would get out). This would not exactly endear him to anyone at all, but they cannot seriously retaliate, because they need him to kill off the dementors before they run out o... (read more)

2TobyBartels
This is the answer that I thought of when I read the chapter (specifically with the ‘blunt force’ amendment below). Unfortunately, it doesn't fit in with the narrative clues that we've been given: there's no taboo trade-off, and it doesn't treat the Wizengamot as individuals. Nevertheless, it would be awesome.
5Desrtopa
I don't think that simply telling someone is enough to take away their ability to summon a patronus, they'd have to believe you. The members of the Wizengamot don't know Harry has any noteworthy insight or intellect, and so it's likely they would not believe him unless he destroyed the dementor, thereby providing evidence that he does indeed have exceptional insight regarding the nature of dementors.
2Asymmetric
Why would Lucius be convinced by that?
Lavode20

Petunia (but she was explicitly altered somehow by her sister) and Hermonies parents. Hermonies parents are.. pretty much exactly what I would expect them to be, in either canon or MoR. I dont recall ever seeing them in canon however, so no baseline.

2pedanterrific
Petunia and the Grangers are Squibs, though.
Lavode00

Eh, everyone we have seen be smarter is a wizard, and if the /entire world/ got smarter, that would have derailed history so hard even hogwarts ought to have noticed, so presumably the departure point is something that affected wizardry. The true words of madness being lost? Alternatively, someone coming up with a intelligence boosting potion or spell. Hmm. Lily was working on a way to permanently alter her sister, and she succeeded. If what she came up with was a way to.. I dunno, boost willpower, so that what actually happened is that she stuck with an ... (read more)

1Desrtopa
Well, Petunia was at least able to figure out that Vernon Dursley would be a terrible father.
0pedanterrific
Have we seen any muggle characters other than Dr Michael Verres-Evans?
Lavode10

Hmm.. Actually, thinking about it, I think that the most likely outcome is that Hermonie will be rescued by someone other than HP. Rereading the last chapter, Harry made absolutely no headway on the case himself, but he does succeed in something else: Persuading a great number of other people that this senario screams "setup" to high heaven - the very first thing he does : Explain Hermonines predicament to Hermonine. - this presumably sets her quite considerable intellect in motion on the case. Second thing he does: Alert the most formidable teac... (read more)

6loserthree
I believe you are incorrect. HJPEV didn't yell about the False Memory Charm until after the doors closed. Hermione has no reason to believe she did not attempt to kill Draco other than her own sense of her own character. And the text as written does not indicate that HJPEV had any success at convincing the other students. He just yelled at them a bit. Only a few heard him and the only response that was dismissal.
Lavode30

That is the logical conclusion your sympathies incline you to. I suspect that what Snape sees in HP is at best a future Dumbledore, and quite possibly simply voldy V 2.0 Why the heck sign up for being manipulated and a pawn a third time? Uh-uh. But this may entirely explain what the heck he was/is doing with SPHEW. He picked Hermonie as the potential future ally least likely to stab him in the back when convenient, and SPHEW as the bet least dependant on a single individual. (Because it is an idea. The idea that everyone can stand up and do the right thing.)

Without telling anyone. Which is hilarious.

4see
If there wasn't a prophecy directed personally to Snape that made him believe that the ultimate choices are either Voldemort or Harry, maybe.