All of lucidfox's Comments + Replies

OP here. In case you've found this post via Google (as I did unexpectedly, having found my own post when searching for something different) and are wondering how I'm faring now, rest easy: I transitioned years ago, and now live a much, much happier life now than I did when I wrote this post. I live as a woman, I've become a lot more social and (IMO) a lot less socially awkward, friends and strangers don't even realize I'm trans (or if any do, they aren't showing it and aren't treating me any differently).

I didn't regret my transition even once.

My views on ... (read more)

It is correct that we can never find enough evidence to make our certainty of a theory to be exactly 1 (though we can get it very close to 1). If we were absolutely certain in a theory, then no amount of counterevidence, no matter how damning, could ever change our mind.

I wonder: do the names Y'ha-nthlei, Y'not'ha-nthlei, and At'gra'len'ley mean anything? I assume Y'ha and Y'not'ha mean "you have" and "you don't have", but beyond that it just seems random.

5Plasmon
lovecraft

Indeed, if the two axes are the coordinates of the two particles, then one blob should be in the lower left and the other in the upper right. Seems Eliezer made a mistake with this diagram.

the median rationalist is still struggling to get a date

First, [citation needed].

Second, if it's true, perhaps one should look at oneself and ask why.

0Jack
First, it really isn't. I'm making a generalization about a group I'm familiar with. Second, I don't struggle to get dates.

Just because I read the sequences doesn't mean I'm particularly likely to agree with any of them. Some, yes, but not all. Many of the statements you listed are controversial even on LW. If they were unanimously accepted here without further discussion, it would be a worrying sign.

0Zed
Sure, unanimous acceptance of the ideas would be worrying sign. Would it be a bad sign if we were 98% in agreement about everything discussed in the sequences? I think that depends on whether you believe that intelligent people when exposed to the same arguments and the same evidence should reach the same conclusion (Aumann's agreement theorem). I think that disagreement is in practice a combination of (a) bad communication (b) misunderstanding of the subject material by one of the parties (c) poor understanding of the philosophy of science (d) emotions/signaling/dissonance/etc. I think it's just really difficult to have a fundamental disagreement that isn't founded on some sort of personal value. Most disagreements can be rephrased in terms of an experiment where both parties will confidently claim the experiment will have different outcomes. By the time such an experiment has been identified the disagreement has dissolved. Discussion is to be expected because discussions are beneficial for organizing one's thoughts and because most of us like to discuss the subject material on LW. Persistent disagreement I see mainly as a result of insufficient scholarship.
0Pavitra
Yes, that is the reason. The question is whether and why we should consider Miku a non-person. I was attempting to refute the proposed personhood predicate implementation.

Pardon me, ma'am, but what is it with you and No Fun Allowed? Nobody's forcing such light-hearted ideas upon you; this is what the Discussion area is about.

Where did I demand anything?

That was a joke on my part, but one warning against using overly general umbrella terms. Our copyright and patent laws developed as a result of certain historical circumstances, and it is entirely possible that a hypothetical alien civilization would treat sharing and distribution of ideas entirely differently and not resembling any of our historical precedents.

0rwallace
I would certainly hope so! For that matter, I hope future human civilization will treat it differently as well. (I'd like to replace hope with am confident, but alas I'm not quite that much of an optimist.)

...I didn't? Drat. Sorry.

This is what I get for not looking over my own comments before I post them. I'll be more vigilant in the future.

In Russia and China one can be shot for being different.

I think you might need to update your beliefs about Russia. The ones you seem to have are stuck in the 1930s-1940s.

9Chris_Roberts
Maybe not shot, but still jailed: http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/08/17/russian-court-to-rule-in-pussy-riot-trial/?iref=allsearch

If Newton tried to derive his law purely from empirical measurements, then yes, he would never be exactly sure (ignoring general relativity for a moment) that the exponent is exactly 2. For all he would know, it could actually be 2.00000145...

But that would be like trying to derive the value of pi or the exponents in the Pythagorean theorem by measuring physical circles and triangles. If the law of gravity is derived from more general axioms, then its form can be computed exactly provided that these axioms are correct.

I don't see discussion posts as being inherently of lesser value and lesser impact to readers than promoted posts. I judge posts based on their content and the points they bring up, not by their location on the site.

If you only accept beliefs that are implied by your existing ones, you'll never believe anything new. And as such, you'll stop updating your beliefs.

1Oscar_Cunningham
Right, which is why I said "for example". My point is simply that there are many fewer contradiction between our beliefs than CronoDAS' comment would suggest, since our beliefs are somewhat formed by processes that make them coherent.
2shokwave
Not necessarily. If you slowly develop towards logical omnisicence, you'll only accept beliefs implied by your existing ones, but you will believe some new things. You will update your beliefs on new implications from current beliefs rather than evidence, sure, but that's not such a weird concept - it ran strongly through the schools of analytic philosophy for a long time.

galactic intellectual property law

Be precise. Do you mean galactic patent law, galactic copyright law, or galactic trademark law?

4rwallace
I suppose we'll find out when we reach a high enough tech level to be able to build our own halting oracles, and promptly get sued. If the lawsuit rests on a claim that we reverse engineered the one we bought, it must be copyright law; if the lawsuit doesn't even need to claim that, it must be patent law.
1Pavitra
I see no reason to think that galactic law will resemble ours. Extremely vague concepts like "intellectual property" are about as close of an analogy as we're likely to get.

I said "to the effect of". I didn't mean literally the same wording.

1Alicorn
Where?

I sympathize with your distaste for taking apart love to see what it's made from

More like distaste for trying to reduce love to something it's not. You cannot reduce an abstract, complex facet of human experience to something simple and easily definable, otherwise you make yourself vulnerable to utopia plans that are doomed to fail.

People I showed lukeprog's original post to were universal in their reaction: "Wow, talk about neckbeardery".

As for PUA, I won't comment on that. If all you care about is one-night stands, then I guess you can be cynical about that. Actual love is a different matter entirely.

7Alicorn
You got multiple people to use that sentence? In fact, I will be nearly as impressed if multiple people independently used the word "neckbeardery".

whereupon if I'm playing WOW, I roleplay an elf. <...> If I'm on LessWrong, I roleplay a rationalist.

Or you can roleplay a rationalist elf in WoW. :)

A long time ago, back before I quit WoW, I roleplayed an atheist draenei who refused to believe in the night elf goddess Elune. The catch here is that we players know she actually exists in the setting, because Blizzard told us so, but the characters would have no way of verifying this since she never appeared in the world in person. From my character's point of view, the magical powers that priests ... (read more)

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1handoflixue
Heeeh, very cute! My first foray in to fantasy had a God of Atheists, who derived power from non-belief in other Gods :)

P(A|B) = P(A|~B) is equivalent to the classic definition of independence, and intuitively it means that "whether B happens or not, it doesn't affect the likelihood of A happening".

I guess that since other basic probability concepts are defined in terms of set operations (union and intersection), and independence lacks a similar obvious explanation in terms of sets and measure, I wanted to find one.

What do metric users round to when measuring lengths? Millimeters?

Depends. In casual use, typically centimeters. But yes, as muflax said, metric rulers have individual millimeters marked, and typically they mark half-centimeters with slightly longer bars.

I implicitly meant a continuous distribution. Clarified that in the post now.

Concretely, if you're measuring the length of something with a ruler, you probably just round to the nearest 1/16th of an inch.

As someone who lives in the dangerous and uncharted part of the world called "outside the US', I prefer centimeters. ;)

-1komponisto
Feel free to use centimeters in your own examples, then. But you're not entitled to demand that US users do so.
4Alicorn
This one isn't even a matter of neglecting to convert; it's a cultural divide - while I expect you knew what Matt meant, it's entirely possible he didn't know how to translate it for you. Presumably you don't round to the nearest 1.5875 millimeters. What do metric users round to when measuring lengths? Millimeters? Those are little - even littler than sixteenths of an inch! Do most metric rulers even mark them, or do they just mark halfway points between centimeter lines? I don't know.

Her confusion.

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When I read thakll's post, I thought they indeed meant the mathematical definition of "almost surely". The domain of an event with probability zero is indeed "almost nowhere" in the rigorous sense, since it is a measure-zero set.

2[anonymous]
Yes, thats the concept to which I am refering. The concept comes from measure theory. If you're familiar with I'm not sure why you're confused about probability 0 events. Or are you? Perhaps I'm mis-reading your article.

Now, a hopefully intuitive explanation of independent events.

By definition, A is independent from B if P(A|B) = P(A), or equivalently P(AB) = P(A)P(B). What does it mean in terms of measures?

It is easy to prove that if A is independent from B, then A is also independent from ~B: P(A|~B) = P(A ~B) / P(~B) = (P(A) - P(AB)) / (1 - P(B)) = (P(A) - P(A)P(B)) / (1 - P(B)) = P(A).

Therefore, A is independent from B iff P(A) = P(AB) / P(B) = P(A ~B) / P(~B), which implies that P(AB) / P(A ~B) = P(B) / P(~B).

Geometrically, it means that A intersects B and ~B with su... (read more)

0DanielLC
I feel like independence really is just a definition, or at least something close to it. I guess P(A|B) = P(A|~B) might be better. Independence is just another way of saying that A is just as likely regardless of B.

...Oops, yes, said that without thinking. But this

Basically, P(A|B) = 0 when A and B are disjoint, and P(A|C)/P(B|C) = P(A)/P(B) when A and B are subsets of C?

is correct.

and P(A|C)/P(B|C) = P(A)/P(B) when A and B are subsets of C?

When A is a subset of C, P(A|C) = P(A).

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0Oscar_Cunningham
Um, no?

I agree with the OP: simply defining a probability concept doesn't by itself map it to our intuitions about it. For example, if we defined P(A|B) = P(AB) / 2P(B), it wouldn't correspond to our intuitions, and here's why.

Intuitively, P(A|B) is the probability of A happening if we know that B already happened. In other words, the entirety of the elementary outcome space we're taking into consideration now are those that correspond to B. Of those remaining elementary outcomes, the only ones that can lead to A are those that lie in AB. Their measure in absolut... (read more)

0DanielLC
Basically, P(A|B) = 0 when A and B are disjoint, and P(A|C)/P(B|C) = P(A)/P(B) when A and B are subsets of C? It's better, but it's still not that good. I have a sneaking suspicion that that's the best I can do, though.

I'm actually staggered by the amount of so-called "dating advice" on LW in the first place.

Isn't it too much of a convenient coincidence to say that it's impossible and also immoral to rationally understand something?

6khafra
If explicit analysis of relationships would completely ruin the joy they bring you, then it is rational not to analyze them. However, for most people who've embarked on such analysis programs, this does not seem to be the case. The more important something is to you, the more vital it is to optimize for its good characteristics. I sympathize with your distaste for taking apart love to see what it's made from, but that's the same frame of mind that refuses to put a value on human life, and thus ends up wasting large amounts of it by making scope-insensitive decisions. Refusing to analyze love might similarly waste large amounts of potential future love. The PUA experimenters here have noted that modifications of the standard methods may be necessary to appeal to the "rationalist" crowd. But I feel confident that none of them would claim Evolutionary Psychology doesn't work on us. I think you see as a lack of empathy what Lukeprog sees as analyzing everyone equally--sort of the "don't anthropomorphize humans" approach.

May defame my image with women (who would date an immortalist after all .....)

...

6MixedNuts
IAWYC. What Diego should have said is:
-3Manfred
It seemed to work for Er, Christopher Lambert. Well, once at least.

Three points:

1) While I appreciate what you've contributed to LW, and think the place would be a little less rich in your absence, I wouldn't want you feeling pressured into hanging around somewhere that distresses you. Please don't think points 2 or 3 are in any way antagonistically motivated along these lines.

2) No-one is forcing you to stay here, and no-one will stop you coming back if you subsequently change your mind. Leaving doesn't have to be a dramatic event or a permanent decision. If LW is distressing you, take a break. If that break makes yo... (read more)

A comment by one person cements your belief that LW is not the right place for you?

  1. Karma's just a thing. Don't worry overmuch about it.
  2. Stay here!
6Zack_M_Davis
For the record, I didn't downvote the great-grandparent (and I have now upvoted it). My intent certainly wasn't to "score points" against you; I was just pointing out an alternative interpretation of falenas108's comment. I want Less Wrong to be welcoming to anyone who supports the shared project of advancing human rationality. If Less Wrong isn't fun for you, then you might choose to spend your time elsewhere, but I, for one, have enjoyed some of your contributions and would be sorry to see you go.

Given that Clippy has over 2000 karma points, it seems like a reasonable figure of speech to say that we as a community support Clippy, even though it is well understood that to speak more precisely, "the community" is a fiction and many individual users find the character obnoxious.

I think you're taking this roleplaying thing too far.

I disagree. I'm entertained.

What roleplaying thing?

1Dorikka
Sans explanation, I don't think this comment is very helpful.
0dbaupp
Hmmm... on reflection, "wrong" is too strong. I was thinking that it was that people would have to self-modify to adopt US culture. But, actually thinking about what was being said (thanks, MixedNuts) and what I quoted indicates that it was just self-modifying to become familiar with the concepts. I still think this is unreasonable, due to, for example, the amount of effort it would take to get decent coverage across all areas of the culture, i.e. it's much easier for US users to make a few annotations ("in the USA", or "governor of Massachusetts", to increase googleability at least).
2MixedNuts
If non-US users modify not to be annoyed by these, then: Readers will keep having to look them up, which they'll still find annoying (unless the self-modification is really big). Suggestions will keep being tailored to the US, leading to a lack of general solutions and custom solutions for other countries. OTOH, I'm not sure what's wrong with self-modifying to not be annoyed when American users have GetDefaultCountry() return "USA".

Except the agenda of the fraction I'm speaking about is not "technology will not destroy the world". It's "friendly AI and uploads will lead us to a bright perfect techno-utopia". And as I said multiple times before, I don't buy it.

1lessdazed
Who says that?
0hairyfigment
Besides what MixedNuts said: your description does not get at our most LW-specific beliefs. It doesn't even get at all the claims you've said you disagreed with.

There are several things you've said you disliked; most vocally, predictions of a (positive?) Singularity and HPMOR. However, you haven't argued against them much, just said you disliked them.

If what you're trying to do is just putting up signs reading "Not everyone on LW likes this", this probably works. But I (and presumbably most people who either like or dislike those things) would like to hear your arguments for it in more detail, preferably with some back-and-forth if you're willing to engage. What's in it for you is that it can actually improve the consensus, as opposed to sticking a little [disputed] banner on it.

How to solve the national debt deadlock

In GetDefaultCountry()?

Wouldn't dropping the rationality tagline instead convince people even more thoroughly that it's not actually about rationality, but rather something else?

That being said, I agree with those concerns. LW doesn't have an agenda per se (beyond being sponsored by the SIAI), but the LW majority clearly does. While harsh, "a bunch of fringe technophiles" accurately describes a significant, and vocal, fraction of people here.

2ArisKatsaris
Nowhere have I seen the dangers of AI more focused on than in LessWrong - as such I don't think LessWrong could be accurately summarized as being particularly technophilic.
6Plasmon
I wonder if there is such a thing as a non-fringe technophile. Who are they and what do they think/do ? Tech is cool, but further improvement is scary? Tech is cool, but it'll never be able to do (something that sounds scary to many people but is entirely reasonable from a reductionist/materialist perspective) ?
-2hairyfigment
Seems to me you could replace "fringe technophiles" with 'white guys not named Harold,' and have just as valid a statement. I assume you mean that your description gets at what a random member of the public would likely notice first. This does seem close to the truth. (Although a more literal account of what they'd perceive first would involve some word like 'rationality' or 'reason', perhaps in connection with the term 'worship'.) But the term "fringe technophiles," by itself, would not lead anyone to expect a community that asks you to justify your belief in detail if you say technology will not destroy the world.
1timtyler
You mean that there is no official mission statement? I'm pretty sure that it is part of a mission, though.

Sorry, my fault for misspelling it.

It is desire, more or less - if someone believes they already have body parts they actually don't, now that's a delusion. However, calling it "desire" implicitly implies that fulfilling it is optional for their well-being, and that it's somehow okay to treat them the way they don't want to be treated until then.

If you can offer a rigorous, general procedure for that, I'm willing to listen.

Moreover, if nobody can know my mind better than I, this is a big problem. It means psychology hasn't advanced enough.

Psychology hasn't advanced enough. It's been discussed here on LW over and over again. It is ultimately based on an inherent degree of subjectivity and something more akin to a collection of best practices than actual science.

And most important - this is completely useless when you're trying to know your own mind. Some people regret transitioning and go back.

Transitioning is always a risk - the best that can be done is minimizing the... (read more)

it is ultimately based on self-diagnosis

Yes. That's why it's really fucking important to figure out how to self-diagnose rather than say "Eh, people are whatever they say they are".

The Wikipedia articles "Gender" and "Gender identity", as well as their external links, would be a good start - as well as my previous post on LW, "Gender Identity and Rationality", and its discussion area.

As for religion, despite being an atheist myself, I'm not going to assume the hardline "atheism or bust" stance and instead I'll politely decline to derail the thread.

The most important difference is that religion involves people making conclusions about nonexistent (from an atheist's point of view) external entities, while gender identity involves people making conclusions about their own minds - and who can know your mind better than yourself?

I wonder if the is-ought distinction can help us here. Which phrase better describes your feelings in the past: "desire to be female", or "perception of being female"? If it's the former, there's nothing to argue about and I will happily strike the word "delusion" out of my mind, replacing it with "desire", and everyone's happy. If it's the latter, what gives you confidence that your perception was correct in some sense, other than the perception itself?

people making conclusions about their own minds - and who can know your mind better than yourself?

Seductive, but false. Once my best friend and I disagreed about how I would react to a particular event. He was right. I would also say confidently that people online who claim to be vampires or stuff like that are, if they're sincere, making a mistake. Also, I know things about the psychology of suicidal thoughts that enable me to know important facts about the minds of a certain class of suicidal people better than they do. Also, there are people who dece... (read more)

It means taking averages over such an extremely diverse sample that the results end up having no real meaning - like literal average temperature per hospital, which includes sampling over corpses in the morgue and severe fever sufferers. So if the average temperature hospital 1 turns out to be 0.1 degrees higher than in hospital 2, it tells us nothing about the relative distribution of patient traits in each hospital.

4SilasBarta
That expression would require less explanation if it were "average body temperature in a hospital".
7Armok_GoB
That's your hypothesis over the results, not inherent in the testing procedure. If that is the case it would show up as a specific result not be mistake for somehting else. I'd say there being very clear trends is orders of magnitude more probable. The way I described the experiment means the raw data would be very rich, and you should be able to see very clear things like some people being better at distinguishing than others, people being better at distinguishing between people who are otherwise similar to their culture, some people being better at pretending than others, some of the "typicals" being a lot more or less typical than others, etc. There's lots of redundancy.

I sympathize with your reaction and apologize for the choice of words (which was under a hypothetical, but still).

On the other hand, consider this: a theist could express exactly the same indignation at my comment and they'd still be wrong! And we don't have any reliable way to "cure" theism either. And it's way more prevalent and accepted by society...

What research are you proposing that I look up?

There is an expression in Russian net folklore: "average temperature per hospital". This is, in effect, what you'd be measuring here.

3orthonormal
Well, no, you'd be measuring how people come across to other people, which is an important aspect of gender but far from the most important. Still, I'd find the results of such an experiment quite interesting and informative.
0Armok_GoB
I' not sure what that means and Google isn't being helpful.

Ignoring for a minute that such a test would be infeasible to realistically implement (good luck getting so many trans volunteers), it is loaded with cultural assumptions, a vague definition of "typical", and it ignores such issues as experience in the target gender role, skill in the language of the test, and culture-specific stereotypes and presuppositions.

3Armok_GoB
Presumably all those things should be as randomized as possible.

Choosing to be treated the way society should treat women, if it puts sexist prejudices aside, or the way women have traditionally been treated?

(And going in the other direction, FTMs might be interpreted by conservative men as an attack on their male privilege.)

3Pavitra
I don't think that distinction is relevant to the point I was trying to make. I expect it would vary from person to person.

Comparing furries/otherkin etc. with transsexualism is normally something you will hear as an attack from people that do not accept transsexualism.

I've heard the argument from both sides, including from otherkin who seek social acceptance based on that comparison.

I personally have no doubt the society has to accept and help transsexuals, but I'm ambivalent in case of otherkin - primarily because I find it difficult to empathize with their patterns of thought.

This seems to agree with your intuitions: In a Turing test you can probably distinguish females and males in which case most transsexuals hopefully come out as the gender they consider themselves do be

Distinguish based on what attributes, exactly? Can you suggest contents for such a test?

8Armok_GoB
Take 1000 typical males, 1000 typical females, 1000 transexual males, 1000 transexual females, 1000 typical males tasked to pretend they are female and 1000 typical females tasked to pretend they are male. Then you let each of these talk anonymously over text chat with 100 randomly chosen of the others and assign probabilities of them being in each of these categories. Then you run statistics to determine the general ability to distinguish each of the categories from each of the others. I'd expect that {typical!male, trans!male, and troll!male} would be almost complexity distinguishable from {typical!female, trans!female, and troll!female}, that it often would be possible to distinguish typical!X from trans!X, but that trans!X are very rarely mistaken for troll!X... this matrix of possibilities is kinda huge so I wont bother filling it out more unless you specifically request it since you probably get my point by now.
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