All of mrcbarbier's Comments + Replies

Thanks for your thoughts and for the link! I definitely agree that we are very far from practical category-inspired improvements at this stage;  I simply wonder whether there isn't something fundamentally as simple and novel as differential equations waiting around the corner and that we are taking a very circuitous route toward through very deep metamathematics! (Baez's rosetta stone paper and work by Abramsky and Coeck on quantum logic have convinced me that we need something like "not being in a Cartesian category" to account for notions like conte... (read more)

1Alexander Gietelink Oldenziel
No problem! Do you mean monoidal categories? I think that's what the central concept in the Abramsly-Coeke work & the Baez Rosetta stone paper is.

Sorry for the late reply! Do you mind sharing a ref for Critch's new work? I have tried to find something about boundaries but was unsuccessful.

As for the historical accident, I would situate it more around the 17th century, when the theory of mechanics was roughly as advanced as that of agency. I don't feel that goals and values require much more advanced math, only math as new as differential calculus was at the time. 

Though we now have many pieces that seem to aim in the right direction (variational calculus in general, John Baez and colleagues' investigations of blackboxing via category theory...), it seems more by chance than by concerted, literature-wide effort. But I do hope to build on these pieces.

2Alexander Gietelink Oldenziel
Category theory was developed in the 50s from considerations in algebraic topology. Algebraic topology was an extremely technically sophisticated field already in the 50s (and has by now reached literally incredible abstract heights). I suppose one could imagine an alternate world where Galois invents category theory but it seems apparent to me that the amount of long-term development significantly divorced from direct applications (as calculus was) was needed for category theory to spring up and mature - indeed it is still in its teenage rebellious phase in the grand scheme of things! John Baez et al 's work on Blackboxing is uses several ideas only developed recently and though I am a fan of abstract mathematics in general and category theory in particular I hasten to say this work is only a small part of a big and as of yet mostly unfinished story. I'm optimistic that this might eventually lead to serious insights in understanding agency but at the moment it seems we are still quite far. A more directed search for agent foundations math is needed, happening (but we need much more!) and likely to bear fruits on the medium-short term but I suspect many of the ingredients are likely things that have been developed with very different motivations in mind. Edit: see https://www.lesswrong.com/s/LWJsgNYE8wzv49yEc for Critch's new work on Boundaries

The problem I have with all these candidates is that they treat all social information as quantitative, a single number like "status"; they do not have semantic content.  Praise/shame and reward/punishment do not specify what they are inculcating, so they are just as likely to push people to invent tactical means to avoid said shaming and ostracism.

As for the quote, sorry there was an ambiguity - I meant that rituals as a phenomenon are as present and important in every culture. But it is my contention that I, a completely atheistic professional scien... (read more)

1TAG
To a non-zero extent? Even so, it's quite possible for an individual to engage in zero of them.
3TAG
Huh? The degree of blame/praise might vary along a single axis, but what it's about can be very complex.

I have the hardest time imagining a conceptual link between p-zombies and predictive processing, but if you don't like it, you don't like it, I guess! 

Personally, the ambiguity between belief and action in this framework is the only half-reasonable explanation I have encountered so far for why the study of values and rituals is so hopelessly confused at a basic conceptual level (far more than even your typical social science question)

3Said Achmiz
I don’t think Richard had p-zombies in mind, but rather the regular sort of zombie.

Much appreciated! I am working on a few "case studies" but I should probably add one or a few here already.

You homed in exactly on the point where I have theoretical doubts (I need to better think through predictive theories and what they really imply) but I can tell you where I stand as of now. 

My current idea to resolve this (and I will amend the main text, either to commit to this or to at least avoid contradictory phrasing) is to invoke multiagent models of the mind:

  • An agent must indeed have immutable goals to function as an agent
  • Our mind, on the other hand, is probably better modelled not as an agent but an agora of agents with all sorts of different
... (read more)
2Noosphere89
As far as my own view on this is concerned, I do think the blank slate view of human nature is mostly correct, and that ev psych/sociobiology is drastically wrong here due to harsh limits on how much information can be encoded in a genetic prior.

Thanks a lot for the suggestion! I do not know anything about this tradition and I would be very happy to learn about it, especially from a perspective that could generate analyses such as the one you paraphrase here.

Your paraphrase from Schmemann resonates a lot with my understanding of Sperber's argument in Rethinking Symbolism, so you may enjoy that book. He devotes the first fraction of the book deconstructing this assumption that symbolism signifies like a language, i.e. as you put it, that "symbolic action must relate in some obviously analogical or didactic way to the thing being represented". And then he tries to offer an alternative theory which I find elegant.

I take it as a good sign that this generated a response, even if that response is "what the heck" (at the very least, rest assured this is a non-smoking endeavor)

I'll rewrite the post a bit within a few days to address your comments and kithpendragon's -- that was a big part of why I wanted to put it on lesswrong, to have some incentive to rectify loose language and loose thinking. 

Some clarifications already:

Here is a person doing something. What would you need to observe, to decide whether you are or are not looking at an example of the category you

... (read more)
9Richard_Kennaway
Ah, well, I don't take predictive processing seriously. It's one of the more absurd ideas I've seen smart people come up with, and I've read a fair amount of the background from which the concept comes. Making a thing happen and predicting that it will happen are different things. But then, people here even try to salvage Evidential Decision Theory. There seems to be something strangely attractive about the idea that people are zombies, passive observers of the world who cannot actually do anything, merely observe what they seem to have done. Perhaps the ones who find it attractive are indeed the zombies that these theories describe.