All of MrShaggy's Comments + Replies

Not just hold the belief but eat that way even more consistently (more butter and less sour cream just because tastes change, but same basic principles). I'm young and didn't have any obvious signs of heart disease personally so can't say it "worked out" for me personally in that literal, narrow sense but I feel better, more mentally clear, etc. (I know that's kinda whatever of evidence, just saying since you asked).

Someone else recently posted their success with butter lowering their measurement of arterial plaque: "the second score was be... (read more)

Downvoted means you agree (on this thread), correct? If so, I've wanted to see a post on rationality and nutrition for a while (on the benefits of high-animal fat diet for health and the rationality lessons behind why so many demonize that and so few know it).

I was worried people would think that, but if I posted links to present evidence, I ran the risk of convincing them so they wouldn't vote it up! All I've eaten in the past three weeks is: pork belly, butter, egg yolks (and a few whites), cheese, sour cream (like a tub every three days), ground beef, bacon fat (saved from cooking bacon) and such. Now, that's no proof about the medical claim but I hope it's an indication that I'm not just bullshiting. But for a few links: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19179058 (the K2 in question is virtually found onl... (read more)

5jefftk
This was about a year ago: do you still hold this belief? Has eating like you described worked out?
MrShaggy240

Eating lots of bacon fat and sour cream can reverse heart disease. Very confident (>95%).

2RomanDavis
Downvoted. I've seen the evidence, too.
4JGWeissman
I doubt you are following this rule.

Just to add to the anecdotal data, I've had the same experience upping animal fat and being able to be productive (mentally and physically) even without eating, and I work a physically demanding job at night, either of which alone can induce fatigue. I eat mostly butter, egg yolks, cream, coconut oil, and fatty cuts of meat like pork belly and fatty ground beef (epsom salts, mineral water and magnesium supplements take care of any muscle soreness).

More useful than melatonin for sleeping in particular?

1[anonymous]
My own experience was that 5-HTP had a VERY noticeable effect on my sleep for the first week or two, after which point I built up a tolerance to it in that respect at least. I switched to melatonin after the problems I mentioned above, and that had a much less noticeable effect, but the effect didn't taper off at all as it did with 5-HTP...
0Kevin
It depends on the person; there are genetic factors involved with processing of these kinds of things. 5-HTP is a partial prodrug for melatonin and I don't think is generally less useful than melatonin for sleeping.

Not AT but something similar and free online vids is "Intuflow", for example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsMPqP7hxRk

0NancyLebovitz
I've done a little with IntuFlow and it looks very good to me-- I intend to do more with it. However, it doesn't strike me as much like Alexander Technique. Feldenkrais is the easiest one to check out cheaply because there are huge quantities of solo awareness through movement exercises available. Somatics is good, and the whole book (except for the pictures, which may not be essential) is free at google books. Ruthy Alon's Mindful Sponteneity is excellent-- only partially available online, but there should be enough for you to see whether you're interested.

T&C report that mapping the Wason selection task to examples from everyday life doesn't improve performance, only when changed to detecting cheating does it change performance.

0MichaelHoward
I don't think T&C established that the "cheat detection" hardwired module was the only thing that could have an effect on the test. They compared performance on versions of the test presented as a social contract problem with logically identical versions using non-hardwired stuff like traveling to Boston, but I don't think there was anything presented as mind-killer politics, sexual selection, status signaling, etc. Maybe that wouldn't be a bad idea?

If I understand your last sentence correctly, that was my other main problem with their argument for evolved social contract algorithms or whatever: I didn't see sufficient evidence that the "cheating" stuff was part of our "native" architecture rather than a learned behavior. Hence the suggestion to create tests that vary on things we know to culturally vary.

Well the EvPsych Primer referenced uses it as their centerpiece for how EvPsych works. I can't say what the rest of the literature says.

I'm not positing that the beating helped the kid learn. See Kaj_Sotala's comment above for an example of how students perform math better when say, doing their job but they can't at school. I found the Wire anecdote plausible, but I didn't mean to suggest I accept the kid's understanding at face value: I generalized to the kid being motivated, which may've well been the case even if the kid hadn't been beaten but having been beaten, that's the explanation the kid looked to. Also, I think your historical evidence doesn't necessarily prove your point. My... (read more)

This example helps clarify something for me. I don't think it's that the "cognitive context was...too dissimilar" for the students, I would guess that it's that they don't care in class. When they're doing they're job or shopping, they do care. But the obvious reply is: why do I hypothesize that cheating-examples make people care in a fictional context? Maybe someone can help say it clearly for me, but it just makes sense to me that math requires a higher threshold of "caring" than something like "cheating." If I were rea... (read more)

Yeah, the idea that a certain concept of states is what explains North Korea and Somalia is wrong. Seconding the point on North Korea: it can defend itself quite well, and it's not just the size of the army. Also, compare post-Westphalian but pre-WW2 with post-WW2 to see a difference in terms of conquering other countries and redrawing borders. The difference: a deal between the US and USSR, two countries with enough power to enforce a certain kind of stability in general, and with the collapse of Stalinism leading to an uptick in the exceptions (esp. Kosovo and Russia-Georgia stuff).

4cabalamat
There are two other reasons why it's harder to conquer countries now than then. 1. people are more squeamish now; using Nazi levels of brutality in putting down rebellions would attract consideral moral opprobrium 2. wealth now comes from highly skilled information workers, who must be at least partly free if they are to be productive; whereas in the past wealth came from farmland, raw materials, and unskilled labourers. The level of repression necessary to hold a territory (and people) against its will is likely to make the acquired terroritory unproductive.

Right, it's responsible for the complexity of what we regard as human behavior, but that doesn't meant that part of the brain is more complex than other parts. Also, I doubt but do not know that it's the only part that regulates or suppresses other parts.

"These points illustrate a very important basic principle: the mind is made out of ‘layers’ of modules and functions, starting with the most rudimentary, basic, and primitive, and moving to the most complex and subtle."

The evidence you gave doesn't point to this conclusion. Modules and functions are the dominate way of thinking about how the brain works currently, but what you've shown is only that the brain isn't a single process free of contradiction. More importantly, even in the view of modules and functions, the rudimentary/basic/primitive... (read more)

1Annoyance
It directs, integrates, and regulates many of the other parts of the brain, and causes them to work together in particular ways or suppresses their output. It is responsible for the complexity of what we regard as human behavior. The losses when this part of the brain is damaged are horrifying. Sufficient damage, and it is questionable whether the resulting creature can be considered 'human' in any meaningful abstract sense. (The biological sense is met, of course. But concepts like 'personhood' no longer seem to apply.)

Sure, but this is basically only worthwhile to us as an introduction...meaning you just gave us an introduction, the point of which is for something more substantial to come after it. Neat example yes, but still wordy for that neat example. This could've been two paragraphs.

"These situations sound like there is a much bigger problem than the elementary error, perhaps that the people involved just don't care about seeking truth, only about having a routine."

Well, a large part of it is funding/bureaucracy/grants. I tend to thing that's the main part in many of these fields. Look at Taubes's Good Calories, Bad Calories for a largely correct history of how the field of nutrition went wrong and is still going at it pretty badly. You do have a growing number of insiders doing research not on the "wrong" path ... (read more)

You would probably like Ferris's Four hour workweek, has an example of how to get your boss to let you work from home and stuff like that. Not the same as above, but similar enough to help you.

0hrishimittal
Thanks. I'll check it out.

"Take a tile known to both of you (if there is doubt, take one your oponent knows)."

I don't understand the parenthetical comment: it seems to be saying "If you are not sure both of you know what a tile is, then choose a tile your opponent knows." How could you know your opponent knows what a tile is but not be sure you know? Or maybe I'm just not understanding?

Or just a different version of the game. Seeing the peeks makes it feel more competitive.

Actually, imagine for instance you have a set of preferences A1 < A2 < A3 < A4 ... and B1 < B2 < B3 < B4 ... such that your opinion with regards to any A compared with any B is like the above confusion

If this is meant to be a kind of introductory piece for decision theory, I don't think it'll work for most people. I'm a programmer (well, I know how to and used to do it for money but not currently), and my eyes start to roll into the back of my head when I read a sentence like the one above and I am not convinced it's important. It se... (read more)

Could one argue the tuning by the programmer incorporates the relevant aspects of the model? (Which is what I think commenter meant by "implicit.") In my mom's old van, going down a steep hill would mess up the cruise control: as you say, if you push hard enough, you can over come a control loop's programming. So a guess as to relation to Bayescraft: certain real world scenarios operate within a narrow enough set of parameters enough of the time that one can design feedback loops that do not update based on all evidence and still work well enough.

I liked the Alien Space Bat description of a control system. The idea that our psychology is a collection of control systems, originated by a control engineer sounds like the cliche "if you're holding a hammer, everything look like a nail" and I don't know how the belief itself controls anticipation (http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/07/making-beliefs-.html). So as of now, I still don't know why I need to know about control theory.

Okay. Another take. Is this really true?

I've read dozens of self-help books and numerous websites, etc. and pjeby's claims of repetition seem mostly true (and his point that some who have unscientific philosophies have great practical advice is definitely true in my experience).

Unreliable for what purpose? I would think that for any individual's purpose, self-experimentation is the ONLY standard that counts... it's of no value to me if a medicine is statistically proven to work 99% of the time, if it doesn't work for ME.

The way I'd put it for this stuff is that experiments help communicate why someone would try a technique, they help people distinguish signal from noise, because there are a ton of people out there saying X works for me.

This comment is I think an essential couterbalance to the post's valid points. To expand a little, the book Good Calories, Bad Calories by Gary Taubes argues that bad nutritional recommendations were adopted by leading medical and then governmental associations, partly justified by the above advice (we need recommendations to help people now, can't wait for full testing). So someone could refer to this as an example of why the comment above is dangerous in areas that are harder to test than the efficacy of steel production (which I presume they knew worke... (read more)

1magfrump
I probably would have voted this comment up had it been formatted more nicely. A lot of your point was lost on me because of the single large paragraph.
9matt
The harm didn't come from "leading medical and then governmental associations" adopting recommendations before they were proven, it came from them holding to those recommendations when the evidence had turned.
0roland
In my comment I wasn't thinking particularly about nutrition. Regarding bad nutritional recommendations(and health recommendations in general) they may also be the consequence of studies. The thing is, when will we ever be done with the "full testing"? Science is constantly improving and in the future we will probably be horrified by some of the things we do now and that will later be proven to be wrong. The best thing we can do is to be careful and prepared to update swiftly on new evidence.

Also note: "Power, he'd sought at first. Strength to prevent a repetition of the past. "If you don't know what you need, take power" - so went the proverb. He had gone first to the Competitive Conspiracy, then to the beisutsukai."

But the teacher has promised failure as a seemingly necessary step to mastery on this path, so it has not fulfilled what he went there for yet.

Brennan asked: "Is this the only way in which Bayesian masters come to be, sensei?"

And thought: "How could Jeffreyssai possibly have known before Brennan knew himself?"

He wants to find a better way to train Bayesian masters.

I'd wager 10 karma points against 1 that this is not the desire Eliezer has imagined for Brennan.

I'd only wager 5 against 1 that he has a specific desire imagined for Brennan.

(Thus begins the prediction market for the Bardic Conspiracy...)

Perhaps there should be a short survey and a full survey? Or every question (or most other than demographics) have a "no answer" as an already marked default? It's a pretty intensive survey unless you spend a lot of time here I think.

0Mike Bishop
Agreed, as survey length rises, survey response rate falls. I recommend making two or more surveys. The first one should take less than 5 minutes and we should push everyone, including non-commenters to fill it out. We should use our handles, or another ID, to link the data from multiple surveys.

"Why not just assume magical space fairies come down to earth and solve poverty? It's a more realistic expectation."

Right, like with the No Child Left Behind system, "still waiting for the magical space fairies to wisely make schools accountable since 2001."

"If you incorporate their beliefs, to what extent is this self-pretension or just an attempt to incorporate them in your brain?"

I don't think we know enough neuroscience to know. Either way it is some set of neurons 'adopting' those beliefs. The question I guess is whether that set can become part of your system of beliefs that influence your day to day actions subsonsciously and consciously? I can't make the question clear which I think is because we don't understand the architecture well enough to do so.

"Then, figure out which of those behaviors attract women and find a way to perfect those behaviors."

MBlume's post already responded to this method: body language (all the different subtle aspects of it) is not consciously controllable in this way. Some aspects of it, to go with the current example of "alpha male," can be, such as not to slouch. The only way I know to get the whole package of body language is from certain emotional states that subconsciously produce them. Now there are ways to get there other than through false belief... (read more)

0pwno
Change the example to public speaking. I may be able to speak fine alone in my room, but that has little to do with my ability to do in front of others. For MBlume, learning how to do the correct body language (of that character) in front of an audience is only a little different than doing it correctly alone. Learning the right body language of an alpha male is much different when in front of attractive women than when alone.

Ha, fair enough. On a serious note though, I guess I'd say then that I don't know if trying to find out what it means about you might less effective than just finding out what it means in general, because looking for the piece connected to you might lead you down the wrong path if it's a few steps removed?

5pjeby
If you actually have the ability to openmindedly inquire and observe your automatic thoughts (as opposed to your consciously-intended ones), then you certainly can just look at them. However, if you don't have that skill -- and it's hard to realize that you don't! -- then you'll go less astray if you ask that question. What I usually ask people is, "what's bad about that?" (and I already know, from their voice tone, whether I should be asking "what's bad" or "what's good"). If a person starts going in circles and complex explanations after a couple askings of "what's bad about that?", I shift to, "What does it say about you that X? What kind of person does that make you?" and usually get a better answer. My critierion for knowing whether their answer is correct is partly by length and partly by how "rational" it sounds. When it comes to irrational behavior, the more rational your reasoning is, the more likely it is to be false. Correct answers have a tendency to sound stupid, irrelevant, or at the very least, highly emotional and personal. They're also brief: any sentence structure more complex or lengthy than a proverb or slogan your parents shouted at you is also unlikely to be relevant. IOW, if your answer to the question doesn't surprise you, you're probably just making it up. If it involves reasoning and logic, or lacks any non-implied emotional content, you're definitely making it up. The part of your brain that actually runs things is not a deep thinker: it's a massively-parallel, ultra-cached machine for jumping to emotional conclusions based on expected survival and status impacts. If you're doing something that doesn't make sense, it's for a reason that doesn't make sense. So don't try to make sense out of it - try to see what nonsense you actually believe.

Sometimes we just have to force through something. One way to do that is to connect with your goal (and recursively up through your goal's goal). I assume this is for class. That's probably part of the problem: you aren't motivated to write the paper. But what's your goal? To pass, get a good grade, so you can go on in your education so you have a degree that might have some value on the job market. There are also various tricks you can google, such as writing by freehand non-stop for 15 minutes (even if it's "I don't know what to write.").

B... (read more)

0pjeby
When you're a kid, everything is about you, even stuff that's really about other people. ;-)

"Excellent question. I have heard claims connecting Heath Ledger's death with the intensity of his performance as The Joker, but I am in no position to know the truth of the matter."

I didn't look into it systematically, but I did briefly, and it looked like one of those claims people like to say (and that helps sell papers). I can't rule it out, but without actual evidence, I think it's worth ignoring.

"In fact, given the potential uses in optimizing the cartographer's interpersonal communication skills, there's an argument to be made that learning some of the secrets of the Bardic Conspiracy ought to be de rigeur for the aspiring cartographer."

I agree with this. There may be some dangers from knowingly rehearsing false beliefs but there are also dangers from not being able to do so effectively. To me, it seems there is strong evidence that interpersonal skills increase with 'acting'-like abilities and only weak evidence that acting, etc. involve significant distortion of belief system.

I like your description of how your body language changed. As to whether it's dangerous, I'd say the question is a little broad.

Let's take the earlier example from The Game. I would argue that the false belief version you present (most attractive, etc.) can be a useful counter to Bruce-programming (self-defeating behavior), but that it is not necessary or even optimal to have a false belief of one's status (except perhaps as a training stage) to exhibit attractive body language. But maybe that's beside the point, because I would not be surprised if some... (read more)

1byrnema
The only example I can think of where self-pretension would be best is if you are trying to fully empathize with another person, Daniel-Day Lewis style, perhaps as a way to predict what they'll do next (or behave exactly like them in a play) . I would like to ask the following question: If you incorporate their beliefs, to what extent is this self-pretension or just an attempt to incorporate them in your brain? (I.e., dedicating some subset of your brain neurons to simulating them?)
0MBlume
Excellent question. I have heard claims connecting Heath Ledger's death with the intensity of his performance as The Joker, but I am in no position to know the truth of the matter.

I disagree. Sometimes, if not virtually all the time, people loose due to self-defeating behavior even when winning would bring more drama--this particularly applies to tournaments. I would say rather that people create drama to cover up and to self-justify their self-defeating behavior.

My idea that I'm not ready to post is now: find a way to force pjeby to write regular posts.

My dad used to wear a watch like that. I guess 4.

Well I read 2 at first as "I have several pet tigers" and I definitely would've guessed that was the lie! I still guess 2.

It is true that groups magnify the importance of rational thinking, but I don't think the few examples cited prove that non-x rational thinking was the cause of the success and even if that were proven, it wouldn't prove that x-rational thinking would (given opportunity cost) make a group better. The first example is Toyota, but the link isn't a serious argument that the main cause for their success versus the US auto industry is the continuous improvement, nor that their adoption of continuous improvement was them being rational and the US auto industry n... (read more)

4stcredzero
From the OP: "Whereas a rational individual is still limited by her individual intelligence, creativity, and charisma, a rational group can promote the single best idea, leader, or method out of hundreds or thousands or millions." GIGO. At any given time, the rational group will be limited by their consensus beliefs and mental models. (Indicator of group quality -- do their mental models improve over time?) Rationality is just a tool for uncovering truth. I've often found that I'll go to work on a hard problem using rigorous intellectual tools (Mathematics, on which rationality is based) but then I'll be flummoxed and have to set it aside. Then the answer will pop into my head the next morning as I'm eating breakfast, at which point I'll use math to validate the intuition I've just had. Sometimes we need to stumble on the truth by accident or other non-rational means. Can rationality help us if we don't even know the right questions to ask in the first place? I think it's a powerful tool, not a panacea. We may well benefit from rationality, but that doesn't mean all of the answers we seek will come sliding down the chute when we turn the crank on the machine. However, I will say that it is a fantastic filter for revealing which are the wrong answers. Toyota is an example of a company that utilizes rationality for a competitive edge. Whenever they have an assembly line problem, they go through the "Five Whys" exercise. Ask "why" iteratively five times. Why five? It's a manageable number, usually enough to get at the real underlying issue, and you have to set some fairly low limit, otherwise employees doing the exercise will keep quitting their jobs and go off to live in the woods to live as philosopher ascetics.

"What do you have besides the oath? Are you doing reasearch, trying new things, keeping track of results, genuinely searching at long last for something that will actually work?" I agree with this, at least as a start. I would say "genuinely searching" is a tricky thing. Diet is one of the most sought areas to improve upon, and one of the most controversial for someone just looking around. One may think that looking at pubmed makes their search more rational, but that may just lead them to fall prey to existing biases in statisticall... (read more)

Applied rationality? EY developed this rationality stuff as part of his work on AI. In terms of rational behavior, there's a general question of how do we change behavior to what we think is rational and the specific question of what is rational for whatever it is we're dealing with. Now that I write that I realize that different areas might have different best ways to change behaviors (diet changes versus exercise perhaps). I think that looking at more specific applied cases--what is a 'rational' diet and how to rationally adopt that diet--might be a good way to both test and develop x-rationality? Versus more abstract decision theory (Prisoner's dilemma).

I think that this would be a weak community if going down that road would turn into a non-scientific amateur fest, which is how I understand Simpleton's concern.

"Eliezer considers fighting akrasia to be part of the art of rationality; he compares it to "kicking" to our "punching". I'm not sure why he considers them to be the same Art rather than two related Arts."

I don't understand the implications of seeing it as part of the same art or a different art altogether.