All of Nanani's Comments + Replies

Nanani00

Odd as it may sound, it would have to be "structured randomness" so to speak. Picking a slip out of a bowl would probably work - getting a reward only when the parent is in the mood to give one would likely not. The latter is just as random from the child's perspective, but inconsistent parenting (or animal training, or employee rewarding schemes) is known to be bad at shaping behaviour in the desired fashion.

1eugman
That's true. Arbitrary responses can lead to learned helplessness, although that's for negative responses. I can imagine there is are more relevant psychological concepts.
Nanani60

Paying a drug addict to get clean isn't rewarding good behavior so much as rewarding the cessation of bad behavior. This has clear problems. For one thing, it isn't random like the "follow the speed limit for a chance at a small reward" scheme.

A true equivalent would be rewarding random people for not being on drugs, including the population of former addicts that have since gone clean. Being on drugs would be a garantee of not getting this reward.

Nanani-10

Voted down because tangential replies that belong elsewhere really get on my nerves. Please comment on the post about the vitamin study, linked in the OP.

0nazgulnarsil
0_o I was responding directly to the OP.
Nanani30

Wow, that was great! I already had a fairly good understanding of the Theorem, but this helped cement it further and helped me compute a bit faster.

It also gave me a good dose of learning-tingles, for which I thank you.

Nanani40

Rational Tropers. QED.

1JoshuaZ
Was that a deliberate attempt at a mysterious answer? If so, I am amused.
Nanani30

Where I live, ETC stands for Electronic Toll Collection and is posted at the entry ramp of toll-roads equipped appropriately.

What's wrong with just using "Edit: additional note goes here"

0Blueberry
Nothing's wrong with that, but ETA is shorter and faster to type.
1RobinZ
That's what I use, come to think of it.
Nanani50

Excellent article, though there is a point I'd like to see adressed on the topic.

One salient feature of these marginal, lifestyle-relaed conditions is the large number of false positives that comes with diagnosis. How many alcoholics, chronic gamblers, and so on, are really incapable of helping themselves, as opposed to just being people who enjoy drinking or gambling and claim to be unable to help themselves to diminish social disapproval? Similarly, how many are diagnosed by their peers (He's so mopey, he must be depressed) and possibly come to believ... (read more)

0Vulture
"How many alcoholics, chronic gamblers, and so on, are really incapable of helping themselves, as opposed to just being people who enjoy drinking or gambling and claim to be unable to help themselves to diminish social disapproval?" But by self-diagnosing as an alcoholic, a person would thereby be much more likely to become the focus of deliberate social interventions, like being taken to Alcoholics Anonymous (a shining example, by the way, of well-rganied and effective social treatment of a disease) or some such. This sort of focused attention, essentially being treated as if one had a disease, I would think would be the opposite of what a hedonistic boozer would want. Would they really consider possible medical intervention a fair price to pay for slightly less disapproval from friends?
0Vulture
"How many alcoholics, chronic gamblers, and so on, are really incapable of helping themselves, as opposed to just being people who enjoy drinking or gambling and claim to be unable to help themselves to diminish social disapproval?" But by self-diagnosing as an alcoholic, a person would thereby be much more likely to become the focus of deliberate social interventions, like being taken to Alcoholics Anonymous (a shining example, by the way, of well-rganied and effective social treatment of a disease) or some such. This sort of focused attention, essentially being treated as if one had a disease, I would think would be the opposite of what a hedonistic boozer would want. Would they really consider possible medical intervention a fair price to pay for slightly less disapproval from friends?
Nanani00

Interesting post, but perhaps too much is being compressed into a single expression.

The niceness and weirdness factors of thinking about cryonics do not actually affect the correctness of cryonics itself. The correctness factor depends only on one's values and the weight of probability.

Not thinking one's own values through sufficiently enough to make an accurate evaluation is both irrational and a common failure mode. Miscalculating the probabilities is also a mistake, though perhaps more a mathematical error than a rationality error.

When these are the r... (read more)

1Nick_Tarleton
On niceness, good point. On weirdness, I'm not sure what you mean; if you mean "weird stuff and ontological confusion", that is uncertainty about one's values and truths.
Nanani20

Forgive me if this has been adressed elsewhere, but doesn't the knowledge that you are -trying- to like them get in the way of success? You will always know that you are liking them on purpose and applying these techniques to make yourself like them, so how do you avoid this knowledge breaking the desired effect?

1Blueberry
Why would that knowledge be a problem? Do cars stop working when you know how they work? Do you stop enjoying sex when you use birth control? In fact, it's more likely to be the other way. You know that you're putting in the effort to like them, so your mind will backwards rationalize that to conclude that they must be worth liking (or you wouldn't put in the effort).
Nanani10

Let me sum it up more simply: Telling people not to judge is not an accurate reflection of what they actually do.

I tried to explain why non-judgmentalism is a bad value to uphold. I have nothing to say about Garin and Vanessa, only about the value of the advice proffered.

4pjeby
As I said, you can judge behavior without judging a person. i.e., I can say, "I don't like what you're doing", without it meaning "I don't like you". The advice was about judging people, not about refraining from judgment in the abstract.
Nanani-10

I have a problem here. Filtering implies that some judgement has been made, and the person has been found wanting. It is harmful to advise against filtering, and therefore also harmful to advise against judging.

They decided whether to say "yes" or "no" to a request, and they (allegedly) didn't enter into some class of cognitive states associated with negative affect or disapproval.

Advising people not to judge others is not the same as what you said. My point is only that this constitues bad advice.

Nanani00

How does one acknowledge and accept everybody without filtering people?

What I have seen of people who hold non-judgmentalism as a aspiration has led me to believe that it is a deeply anti-rational ideal. The net result is repeating the same mistakes over and over, such as associating with people who will will take advantage of the non-judger, or not correcting a critical failure because it's judgemental to consider it a failure. By critical failure I mean things like dropping out of the workforce out of sheer laziness; it would be judgemental to say that... (read more)

9Nick_Tarleton
Er, pjeby said that they did filter people. Taboo judge. They decided whether to say "yes" or "no" to a request, and they (allegedly) didn't enter into some class of cognitive states associated with negative affect or disapproval.
6pjeby
Wow. You really are adding a lot of baggage to this... and it has nothing to do with what Vanessa said about how to treat people, or how I saw her and Garin treating people. I never saw them let anybody walk all over them -- they just didn't get upset by people trying. There's a difference between accepting a person, and accepting their behavior. Clearly, you are using a different definition of "judge" than I am. For example, if I were to "judge" you in this interaction, I would say you're being rude, nasty, and massively projecting your experiences onto something that has nothing to do with them... and I would attribute this as a personal characteristic of you... e.g. you are irrational, you are projecting, etc. If I were, on the other hand, following Garin and Vanessa's example, I would probably say something like, "wow, you really had a painful experience with that, didn't you?" and then either change the subject or drop the conversation if I didn't want to pursue it any further. IOW, not judging you, but rather paying attention to your experience and communication, and accepting you as a person worthy of compassion, rather than someone who should be written off as a matter of moral assessment. (vs. simply personally not wanting to continue the interaction). I hope that that's enough information for you to be able to separate whatever definition of "judgment" you're using, from the one I'm talking about here. (Attempting to make another link with LW references, you might say that Vanessa's advice was to avoid indulging our human tendency towards fundamental attribution error.)
Nanani00

Think of it like being a rationalist aspiration to always tell the truth and never self-decieve: setting that as your aspiration does not mean you always can or will accomplish it, but at the same time, it doesn't mean your aspiration should be downgraded to "being in the top percentage" of truth-telling and non self-deception!

It also doesn't mean you get to claim that you always tell the truth and never self decieve.

Having known some people who made "accepting everyone" and "being non-judgemental" a point of honour and se... (read more)

Nanani00

So, she said, she and Garin just always acknowledge and accept everyone.

Allow me to express polite but strong skepticism on this point. I would be very much surprised to find that they accept literally EVERYONE. Do they acknowledge panhandlers the same way as attendees to marketing conferences? How about leading politicians from the opposite party as theirs? Religious leaders from a different religion?

It's easy to say "just genuinely accept everyone" when you don't even see most of the people around you.

In fact, really acknowledging and ... (read more)

5pjeby
[shrug] I observed them at least treating wait staff, valets, hotel personnel, etc. with the same warm glow they did everyone else. Also, it's not like there weren't some obnoxious people at these conferences -- but even when they maintained their personal boundaries, I didn't see them get judgmental or even show any disapproval. They smiled just as warmly, and bid their farewells. I didn't say they didn't filter people. They just didn't judge people. In other words, they didn't confuse a conflict of goals with meaning that somebody else was bad, wrong, or unworthy for having those different goals, nor did they confuse accepting people with having to agree with them or give anything that was asked of them. They simply said "no" as warmly as they said "yes", and often with a sense of reluctance that made you feel as though they genuinely wished the no could have been a yes, but that alas, it was simply not to be.
2cupholder
I doubt they meant literally EVERYONE. I'm guessing Garin and Vanessa just meant that they're in the top percent of non-judgmentally accepting people. Just as if someone says to me 'I get along with everyone,' I don't interpret it as meaning they get along with literally every single person on the planet, I interpret it as something weaker like 'Of the people I know, I get along with almost all of them, and have a good chance of clicking with random people I meet.' You make a valid point that the comfort zone of even the most tolerant people is unlikely to extend to random panhandlers, and if Garin and Vanessa spend 99% of their time with self help gurus and marketing conference attendees, they're probably overestimating their acceptance-ness. I don't think this is fatal to pjeby's main point, though; it sounds likely to me that a lot of people who dislike small talk could probably improve their social hit rate by turning up their acceptance-ness knob. (Edited to fix Garin's (not Gavin's!) name. Note to self: read what's on the screen, not what I think is on the screen.)
Nanani00

The point was partially made by the fact that water is free, at least everywhere I've lived. Thanks, though.

Nanani00

As a non-drinker, I often passed proffered drinks onto my friends, who could make use of them. Obviously I would never ask for a drink, except maybe a glass of water.

2CronoDAS
I'll buy you an orange juice if you want. ;)
Nanani10

Sounds like Cabaret Hostesses in Japan. They have male counterparts, too, but the female variety is a lot more common.

Nanani50

You effectively answered your own comment, but to clarify -

Strategy guides on dead tree have been obsolete for more than a decade. GameFAQs is over a decade old, and it's the best place to go for strategies, walkthroughs, and message boards full of analysis by armies of deticated fans. People are still finding new and inventive strategies to optimize their first-generation Pokemon games, after all. Games have long passed the point on the complexity axis where the developper's summary of the point of the game is enough to convey an optimal strategy.

Your last paragraph is gold.

Nanani10

There's nothing wrong with not wanting what those around have to offer, either.

0Jonathan_Graehl
You're right. Sadly, we often don't want who we can have.
Nanani90

It's worth pointing out that all three examples are highly culturally variable.

The "aspie logic" example behaviour is far more common where I live (urban Japan).

In the first, most people lack the facilities to bake, especially young adults in small apartments or dorms. Buying a cake is the obvious thing to do. That or taking the SO to a cake-serving cafe.

In the second, -no one- here holds doors for strangers. I had to train myself out of the habit because it was getting me very strange looks. Similarly, no one says "bless you" or... (read more)

Nanani71

No, pub talk is not exactly the same as a black tie dinner. The -small talk- aspect, though, very much is. It all comes down to social ranking of the participants. In the former, it skews to word assortative mating and in the latter presumably toward power and resources in the buisness world.

If you have a need or desire to win at social interaction, good for you. Please consider that for other people, it -really- isn't that important. There is more to life than attracting mates and business partners. Those things are often a means to an end, and it is preferable to some of us to pursue the ends directly when possible.

The video game analogy is just plain bad.

Nanani50

Terrible analogy.

Video games have a lot of diversity to them and different genres engage very different skills. Small talk all seems to encompass the same stuff, namely social ranking.

Some of us know how to do it but just don't -care-, and that doesn't mean we're in fact bad at it. I think that is the point this comment thread is going for.

thomblake130

Be careful when you notice more diversity in subject matter you're a fan of than in subject matter that you're not. I'm not sure if there's a name for this bias, but there should be.

7eirenicon
It's a bad analogy because there are different kinds of games, but only one kind of small talk? If you don't think pub talk is a different game than a black tie dinner, well, you've obviously never played. Why do people do it? Well, when you beat a video game, you've beat a video game. When you win at social interaction, you're winning at life - social dominance improves your chances of reproducing. As for rule books: the fact that the 'real' rules are unwritten is part of the fun. Of course, that's true for most video games. Pretty much any modern game's real tactics come from players, not developers. You think you can win a single StarCraft match by reading the manual? Please.

There's also the fact that video games ... have a freaking rule book, which tells you things that aren't complete fabrications designed to make you fail the game if you're stupid enough to follow them.

Nanani10

I'm several days late answering, but FWIW, I scored a 30 but only checked off one of the five diagnostic questions. I've never had my IQ tested as an adult.

I do obsessively pursue my chosen interests but given that one of those is language, I don't have the social / verbal awkwardness. I don't -like- social situations but I can function just fine in them.

Nanani80

Not to mention viewer base fragmentation. There is less need to appeal to the so-called lowest common denominator when there are hundreds or thousands of avenues for transmission. Those without patience for long story arcs can watch a different program more easily today than they could before cable, satelite, and the internet.

Nanani00

Seconded, but with a request for contrast, if possible, with human-caused mass-death such as invasion by conquering hordes. What effect do such phenomena have at the genetic level wrt cognition, as opposed to cultural or lingustic transmission?

4Scott Alexander
And what about human-caused mass death selecting for specific characteristics? For example, the Cambodian purges of intellectuals or the Communist purges of successful businesspeople. Are these too tenuous a proxy for genes to cause long-term change in alleles, or did the Cambodians and Communists do long-term harm to their genetic legacy?
1twl
In AD175 Marcus Aurelius brought 5,500 Sarmatian heavy cavalry warriors to northern Britain where, after twenty years service, they "settled in a permanent military colony in Lancashire" which was "still mentioned almost 250 years later." You remind us of the possibility that the colony could have influenced the legend of King Arthur, and go on to add something new: it also "could have introduced several thousand copies of that hypothetical allele into Lancashire" and that the average Englishman "might be mostly Sarmatian in a key gene or two." I'm English, and intrigued! Are you able to expand on this? (Book pp. 146-148) I hope it is something good like increased unruliness (independence streak) and aggressiveness in battle and not something naff like Sarmatian lewdness...!!
Nanani00

Somehow I found the tl;dr impenetrable, but the actual article eminently readable. Is this deliberate?

0Alexandros
It's the best tl;dr I could muster. Probably because I'm too close to the content and have lost sight of what it's like to see it for the first time. If someone can help conjure up a better one, I'd gladly replace it.
Nanani00

I haven't noticed a vast increase, but I have noticed waves, so to speak, of link-farm prevalence. The very effect in action?

Nanani20

Well put!

We might want to come up with another name for (2). Humans are closer to each other in mindspace than they are to any alien mind, but it does not follow that, close up, all humans have the exact same psychology.

There may be more than zoom-degree involved in the difference.

Nanani00

Does "autism bloggers" mean "people who blog specifically about autism"?

If so, it might be instructive to check how many bloggers in other subjects also happen to have autism. It might be dificult to verify but the blogosphere is large enough to dig up a usefully-sized sample and disentangle to some degree the autism-blogging link.

0Alicorn
Yes, that's what I mean.
Nanani-10

Wow! I haven't got any questions (yet) but I am very eager to dive into this Q&A. Thanks to everyone involved in organizing this.

By the way, you spelled Steve SailEr's name wrong.

7harpend
And thank you all for the honor of your invitation. HCH
Nanani20

Probably the close similarity to this site's oft-quoted "Shut up and multiply."

Nanani60

What -are- you talking about?

We have massively literate societies and a culture in which all the knowledge is shared massively. After a crisis, the remaining few would have to pick up a lot of skills they lack before crisis, but they would have the means to do so in said stores of knowledge, plus the immense advantage of knowing that the things destroyed are possible. The general public -is- capable of learning.

Hunter-gatherers had no knowledge of chemistry, electronics, and mechanics, nor any concept that the things we do with them were possible.

Nanani20

Is this not true true of most modern cars, not only Japanese ones?

Decades ago, drivers could and did repair engines themselves, but today's cars require more knowledge, training, and tools than the hobbyist is likely to have.

The expense of repair says little about reliability. Mean time to failure would be better.

2PhilGoetz
Expected cost per year, including purchase cost, repair cost, and cost of time spent dealing with failures, would be better. BTW, cars from heavy snow country last somewhere between 2/3 and 1/2 as long as cars down south (no official statistics, just my observation). This is due to just a few days per year when the roads are salted. Do the math, and you'll find it's probably cheaper to take leave without pay and stay home from work on days after it snows - even before taking into account the time saved by not working.
Nanani20

All liquids, not just drinks? ...I wonder when Coca-Cola will start making liquid soaps, fuel, and lubricants.

8simplicio
One thing is for sure, Coca-Cola corp is definitely losing the overall fermion market to more streamlined business models.
Nanani20

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

If they had it, yes. Not otherwise. This evidence would have to cover both the immediate claim (that they were working at NASA at that time) and the larger one (that the moon landing was faked). Evidence explaining why no one else ever came forward would be appreciated but not required if the other two things are present.

Nanani40

I wonder, could the effect be reduced by using a darker shade of red? This red is certainly more vivid than the blue to my eye.

Nanani50

RE: The Grieving Student

You don't even need to go as far as society. The school, or school board, will almost certainly have an exception in place for this sort of thing. This is true at all levels for death of an immediate family member. (I speak from experience, having been exempted from final exams one year. My final grade was instead based on coursework, as if there had been no final for the class. )

In fact, odds are the school or department will have a clear policy that says concerts, sports events, and the like are not an acceptable excuse for misse... (read more)

3TobyBartels
I don't know the statistics, but I can assure you that not every school has such policies. Where I teach, it's up to the instructor. (A student can also force the instructor to grant an exception as an accommodation on an individual basis for a disability, but even this must be arranged at the beginning of the term.)
Nanani50

While it might indeed be useful to have a disgust reaction to candy or video games, the "ugh fields" seem not to be visceral disgust, but visceral, conditioned-pain-induced tendencies to cut off thought.

In my experience, this only ever happens with a specific candy or game. For example, If I lose repeatedly and humiliatedly in an online game, I might develop an ugh field that ultimately prevents me from even thinking about popping on to play it, but the corresponding comfort activity is far more likely to be "play a different game" than "go study some math instead".

Nanani30

Can we agree on this or am I falling for bad logic?

We can certainly agree on this point. Though I hasten to add that if you had indeed presented some sort of research, I would not have made the comment. Without objective fact behind it, it smacked of condescencion.

the way you stated it in the original post was judgmental.

I made no original post. I urge you to read the actual original post my comment was made to respond to, and the threads the prompted it. I will not be recapping the gender kerfluffle for you.

Or is that not the way things run ar

... (read more)
Nanani30

Your comment begins "It might be considerate to realize that females do have a legitimate reason for why they are more salient to their own sex and issues regarding gender".

In saying this, you are telling me (a female) that I need to realize something about females. This is questionable, at best, and is so regardless of your own gender.

Then you conclude "... a stronger identification with their own gender. " to which I reply "Balderdash".

Gender is a part of one's identity, obviously, but to say that women can't help but feel ... (read more)

2thomblake
You could say the same thing about any bias. If it were shown that, for example, young people are more susceptible to confirmation bias, it would be useful for a young rationalist to know that, and it would not be a good objection for a young person to respond, "please refrain from lecturing a young person on what young people do or do not do." (and saying "You are not your age" probably doesn't help.) If you believe that letting gender issues interfere in one's goals is a form of bias, then you should believe it's precisely the sort of thing that we should be aware of, and your objection (if any) should have been that orange seems to be making a dubious claim, and he should have to provide experimental evidence to back it up.
3orange
The site lost my response; bugger. I have to object to your first objection there. What can you claim to know about the female sex in general solely based on the fact that you yourself are female? You are just a data point. So, regardless of your gender, I think it's fairly legitimate to say, "You need to realize something about females." That something -- whether females identify with their own gender more strongly than males -- is absolutely verifiable using scientific channels. The only thing that may be objectionable about my statements - is if they're flat-out wrong. But to remedy that is easy - just find the truth. Your objections threw me off. I could understand saying, "That hasn't been verified." But to say, "I'm a female, so you shouldn't lecture me on females" - something struck me as wrong about that. Can we agree on this or am I falling for bad logic? As for the last statement, I respect your belief that gender issues interfere with your goals. But the way you stated it in the original post was judgmental. You could have just presented a rational case for it. Or is that not the way things run around here? Is it better to insult everyone that doesn't think the way you do?
Nanani20

Are you sure about that? Beware generalizing from a sample of one.

Heroin addiction is in most cases carefully cultivated by the addict, for a variety of reasons, and stopping is not really difficult.

I recommend Theodore Dalrymple's insightful book Romancing Opiates: Pharmacological Lies and the Addiction Bureaucracy for clarification as to why akrasia and heroin addiction are not related.

[anonymous]120

I'm generalizing from a sample of zero, in fact.

Nanani00

This is true when the social systems in question are built on dishonest foundations. Observing whether or not intellectual honesty has this effect on a system has predictive value wrt the eventual fate of the society employing the system.

Voted up.

Nanani00

Typo-hunt: should read "abandoning arithMetic" (without the capital of course)

0Nic_Smith
Fixed.
Nanani10

This comment was never intended to attract people to the site, so your last paragraph is not relevant.

Please refrain from lecturing a female on what females do or do not do.

0DragonGod
This is blatant identity politics, and if I could downvote, I would.
4thomblake
I think that most of the discussion of content quality around here revolves around either community-building or effective rational inquiry. It is a valid criticism of any comment to say that it fails at community-building, though it's not necessarily a standard everyone needs to worry about all the time.
2orange
Please explain your second statement exactly. I don't see why you have this objection.
Nanani30

Nitpick: "If a pen is dropped on A moon"
It doesn't specify Earth's moon. If a pen were dropped on say, Deimos, it might very well appear to do B) for a long moment ;) (Deimos is Mars' outermost moon and too small to retain a round shape. Its gravity is only 0.00256 m/s^2 and escape velocity is only 5.6 m/s. That means you could run off it.)

On the other hand, the word "dropped" effectively gives the game away. Things dropped go DOWN, not up, and they don't float in place. Would be better to say "released".

And now, back to our story...

Nanani40

Might it be as simple as being Special? Someone with an unusual medical problem is deserving of extra attention by virtue of having it.

2Scott Alexander
That goes well with common sense, but how would you go about giving it predictive value? I mean, if I were to announce to a bunch of people one day that I had urinary incontinence, I imagine that would lower my status quite a bit. Certainly from a evo psych theoretical standpoint, it's odd to gain status by talking about how unhealthy and unfit you are. I like what Andy Wood said about it being contextual, and hopefully if Kaj writes a summary of that chapter that'll help explain how the context works.
Nanani50

Those all sound like they fit primairily into socialization, with varying doses of status thrown in.

Maybe a Venn diagram would work better than strict levels.

0magfrump
Voted up for suggesting a Venn diagram.
Nanani20

I'd call it "time to dust off the math books". Incidentally, I've got to do just that.

Nanani20

"We are not born into this world, but grow out of it; for in the same way an apple tree apples, the Earth peoples.”

This statement is patently false in many ways and there is no way to justify saying that "the basic idea is indisputably correct". The basic idea that the OP imputed was not derivable from this statement in any way that I can see. Am I missing some crucial bit of context?

Some non-trivial holes: We ARE born into this world; we do not grow out of it in any sense, even metaphorical (though I think many here hope to accomplish the... (read more)

6Johnicholas
The claim "we do not grow out of it in any sense, even metaphorical" is overly strong. Consider: The process of evolution is just as natural as (on the one hand) the process of birth and (on the other hand) the process of hydrogen fusing into helium. Considering "the earth" as an agent in the process of evolution is no more peculiar than considering the earth as an agent in the statement "The earth moves around the sun." The claim "we are not born into this world" is literally false, but if we assume (from context) a philosophical notion of "we are born, tabula rasa, into this world and philosophy is us wondering what to make of it", it is rejecting the notion that humans (or viewpoints, or consciousnesses) are somehow special and atomic, made out of a substance fundamentally incompatible to, say, mud.
Nanani40

Though you might have heard it before, the solution is most likely to find a way to support yourself through the things you already enjoy doing, and/or cultivate an interest to the point where you will be able to make money with it.

Doing so would surely be more effective than beating your head on the wall of "I can't do it".

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