All of niceguyanon's Comments + Replies

The Daily Stoic: 366 Meditations on Wisdom, Perseverance, and the Art of Living This is a good book.

Think about all the regrets and bad things that have happened to you, that you don't know about – the time you dropped money or missed out on a life changing opportunity or mistakes you have made that never got your attention. You probably don't or won't because you don't feel much for things that you don't know that happened to you. So it is possible to feel no emotion about negative things. You have the power to hold no opinion about things, you just ne... (read more)

I don't think that the "show up neatly groomed and dressed" thing is teaching kids to emit particular social signals that is less suitable to a programmer coming to an interview. Both scenarios are about conforming to social norms and for students that happens to be literally neatly groomed/dressed, which for the programmer means no business suit. It's just more useful to use the phrase neatly groomed/dressed than socially appropriate because for most things socially appropriate is neatly groomed/dressed.

Being socially appropriate is not ov... (read more)

0Lumifer
I think you are talking about a more sophisticated version ("being socially appropriate") and in the context of schools teaching kids its' considerably more basic (e.g. for boys "get a short, neat haircut, no one will hire if you look like a hippy").

I think there was a distinction made between planned C-sections and unplanned C-sections (medical emergencies), so that they were able differentiate outcomes following emergencies like a breech baby vs a completely planned C-section. And I think it showed that show C-sections overall were more risky than vaginal birth and long term health was better for vaginal births.

I haven't done any google fu on this topic, other than reading a few passages in a book.

0SnowSage4444
It would make more sense if C-sections were better. After all, nature is notoriously irrational and inefficient.

I am constantly reminded of that fact daily!

0Lumifer
:-)

Ideally 100% of those that medically need C-sections will get it, and those that don't wont.

I think there was a study that was cited in the book about the reduced C-sections rates, but of course the devil is in the details like you say, best to do your own research. I have personally updated my beliefs in favor being more resilient to time pressures of labor and that use of a doula isn't just a waste of money as I previously had thought.

0Lumifer
You speak as if women don't have preferences. Hint: they do.

I am reading Expecting Better, a book about evidence based pregnancy and in it, there are passages about the high rates of C-sections and why it might be. The conclusion was that one medical intervention, whether by drugs or over-monitoring, usually leads to another and another and you end up with a C-section. Non C-section births have better outcomes. So you want to avoid it if you can. The book also mentions that the use of a doula can reduce rates of C-sections to less than 10% from modern U.S. rates of 30%. That is very impressive. Why and how? ... (read more)

0Douglas_Knight
Without claiming that it is directly relevant to the question, let me quote Atul Gawande, from "The Score: How childbirth went industrial" Gawande is great. Collect them all. Also, Lewis Thomas.
3MrMind
This is highly suspicious to me. Do C-sections follow or cause worse outcomes?
2Viliam
In my country the C-sections rate is very high (not sure I can trust my memory on the exact number). We pretty much decided to have our child born in a neighbor country, just to reduce the related risks, even if that included a risk that any medical complication would make the costs skyrocket (because our health insurance system does not like this kind of healthcare shopping). From what I was told, seems like the most important factor is that C-section is more convenient for the doctor. For example, doctors can choose exact timing, to avoid a situation when two babies decide to get naturally born at exactly the same moment. Or they can make more babies get born during the day, when there is more staff at the hospital, and less during the night. (There are also other ways to artificially influence the timing, and yes, those are used too.) Another factor is that in my country it is more-or-less mandatory for mother during the childbirth to lie on her back... which again is most convenient for the doctor, but also happens to increase some risks associated with childbirth (which can be then conveniently solved by the C-section). If I understand it correctly, the position on the back is more dangerous because the child needs to be pushed uphill (over the tail bone). What is even worse, when there are too many C-sections, a feedback loop appears -- suddenly people (both the doctors and the patients) need to protect their egos by rationalizing that, actually, C-section is the best way to go. Which in turn further increases the rate of the C-sections, because if "everyone is doing that" then it is "perfectly normal" and certainly "happens for a good reason", and people who think otherwise must obviously be wrong. So now you have mothers expecting to be given C-section, because that's how it is usually done. And you have doctors giving C-sections at a smallest opportunity, because that's what most mothers want them to do. And communicating this with doctors is almost impo
4Lumifer
!!! The devil is in the details: what you control for and what you don't. Compare: "Not being in a hospital bed has better outcomes than being in a hospital bed". Maybe the book cited some, but you didn't show any.

Some are. But not all.

But how many? It seems more likely that most terrorist have shitty lives and got exposed to a dangerous and bad meme. The alternative would be that there is a certain genetic demographic that is predisposed to committing terrorism, sounds far fetched. If Christians during the crusades had modern technology 1000 years ago, we would probably have seen the kinds of solo terrorism we see today. It was really hard to be a lone fanatic trying to kill 10s of people back then with a blade.

1Lumifer
No, it doesn't seem like that, at all. Read something else other than hysterical mass media. Oh, and do distinguish between "professional"/successful terrorists and disposable (literally!) cannon fodder who only need to have a pulse and be insane enough to pull the cord (but sane enough to listen to instructions). I agree. That's why poisoning the well was a much better idea.

There seems to be an effort to propagate...

I don't think so, or just a trivial amount. Looking at downvotes or lack of upvotes, I don't get that sense at all. Political talk is almost always discouraged and when it does go on, its fairly even handed.

0Lumifer
There ain't no downvotes any more.

Similarly I have mused that the closes thing we have to magic in the real world is the ability to forecast.

2Lumifer
The closest thing we have to magic in real world is advanced technology. Move your mind a hundred years back and look at your phone.

Tangentially related, I'm surprised that students misjudge how high the cost of being late is to the cost of arriving early. I have a suspicion that people who insist on being exactly one minute early and no more are made up of two groups, the very efficient and the best procrastinators that are often late and when on time they get to pat themselves on the back for being efficient.

Getting to class early just to sit in the front row is the easiest way to boost your grade for most classes, IMO as an armchair psychologist.

2Brendan Long
And if you're early, you can either talk to friends or read. I always try to show up at least ten minutes early to things and then use the extra time to do the reading I would have done at home later.

I dunno, it's hard enough trying to determine if and where profit was made, in order to tax it. If we didn't tax profits and only distributions then there would be no taxes to collect. Companies and individuals would all claim that any profit are being retained for future investment or for hoarding and not actually distributed to owners. That is why we tax non distributed retained earning.

So if we can distinguish between

"I know the probabilities involved and they are 50% for X and 50% for Y" and "I don't know".

Could we further distinguish between

a uniform distribution on the 0 to 1 range and "I don't know"?

Let's say a biased coin with unknown probability of landing heads is tossed, p is uniform on (0,1) and "I don't know" means you can't predict better than randomly guessing. So saying p is 50% doesn't matter because it doesn't beat random.

But what if we tossed the coin twice, and I had y... (read more)

0Lumifer
But you've changed things :-) In your situation you know a very important thing: that the probability p is the same for both throws. That is useful information which allows you to do some probability math (specifically compare 1 - p(1-p) and 1 - p^2). But let's say you don't toss the same coin twice, but you toss two different coins. Does guessing (H,T) help now?

I enjoyed the post and appreciate the additional links for reading.

The main character's reaction is sort of unhealthy/fake - better would have been to clarify that you overheard them bantering earlier.

I did not feel that way at all, the reaction is simple and appropriate. Imagine how clunky and awkward it would be for the main character trying to explain that in fact you over heard the banter and that you don't want the mom to think, that you think its OK for there to be rude things said about her son, in front of her. That would come off as weir... (read more)

This is a really good example of when the organization does gets it right on the big picture, but it seems like they didn't pick the right paradigm. An observation of mine is that organizations often seem dysfunctional to a lot of participants because they aren't part of the profit center or privy to the overall strategy. A company can be fully aware of dysfunction or inefficiencies within, and find it acceptable, because fixing it or making someone happy isn't worth the resources.

0Viliam
Unfortunately, for people who are not members of the inner circle this kind of optimization may be indistinguishable from mere incompetence, or malice. Do we produce sloppy code? Maybe delivering the code fast is more important than the code quality. Do we have an incompetent person on the team? Maybe he or she is a relative of someone important, and it is very important to gain a favor from that person. Did we actually deliver the sloppy code late? Maybe the delay way strategic somehow; maybe the company is paid by hour so delivering the product late was used as an excuse to extract more money from the customer; or maybe it made them more dependent for us; or maybe it was somehow strategically important to deliver it on Thursday. Is the company financially in loss? Maybe the key people are actually transferring company money to their private accounts, so everything goes according to the plan. I don't know where is the balance between understanding that there may be some higher strategy that I am not aware of, and simply blindly trusting the authorities (it is easy to rationalize the latter as the former). I guess it is important to notice that the "higher strategy" is not necessarily optimizing in my favor, so in some sense from my point of view there sometimes needs not to be a difference between "it is all going to hell" and "it all goes according to the plan, but a part of the plan is sacrificing me". That means that unless I trust the secret wisdom and benevolence of the people behind the wheel, I should treat all apparent dysfunction as potentially bad news.

Suggestion to sticky the welcome thread. Stickying the welcome thread to the sidebar would encourage participation/comments/content. And perhaps in the future add emphasis on communication norms to the thread, specifically that negative reception and/or lack of reception is more obvious on LessWrong – So have thick skin and do not take it personal. I'd imagine that quality control will be what it has always been, critical comments.

Admin intervention is way too much.

0morganism
E-cigs glycerine burning changes the structure of the lung aveoli on first use, you are getting a lot less CO, but unknown at this point if it is harmless, or less lethal. quit smoking Patches prob the best way so far. Nicotine is a very potent poison too, is all in the doseage, right....?
2Brendan Long
Or nicotine pills. E-cigs are almost certainly better than normal cigarettes, but why does everyone seem to think inhalation is the only way to take nicotine? (It's scary that apparently even doctors don't understand that nicotine is not the problem in cigarettes. I blame the drug war, where "being addictive" automatically makes things The Worst Thing Ever.)

What are your own thoughts about the problem of monopolies, are they even a problem at all? The standard answer is that they either would not occur or would be a beneficial thing.

0ArisC
You mean under libertarianism? Well, economically I think they are a bad thing - but in theory, I don't see how they can be avoided without coercion. Of course, if I were a president or prime minister, I would have to be a bit more pragmatic - I don't think pure libertarianism would ever work!

My contention, however, is that racial prejudice is a factor in real-world police shootings/violence.

I'm not disagreeing with you but I just want to add to the conversation that I think the SSC comment is closest to the issue when he/she said:

Still, the incentive is there. And it’s based on math – racial prejudice not required.

Because I believe people tend to follow incentives, my current best guess is that police do over-profile (target the higher risk groups more than the actual risk differences would suggest), and they are going to, and the only qu

... (read more)
1TiffanyAching
Good point well made. I have nothing to add but agreement. Also I may steal this analogy and use it in future, just so you know. Especially because you've noted that getting rid of the third guard does help. The argument that I see often but don't understand is that trying to ditch the third guard is not worth doing because it doesn't solve the wider peasant-injustice issue. I don't mean just with the police brutality/American race-relations thing either - it seems almost any time people want to put work into fixing Specific Issue X, there are other people standing back and saying it's a waste of effort because it won't solve Larger Issue Y. Winds me right up.

Is it fair? No. Is it racist? Also no.

Agree, and I think this is a really important and overlooked implication, that two tribes will talk past each other on. Unfair discrimination persists even with rational, non-racist, greedy capitalist.

A less charged example would be life insurance policies. Almost everyone would agree that mortality tables are acceptable; almost everyone could also imagine themselves getting older, and could imagine themselves as above average with in their group. The insurer will rationally charge the older group more premium. A... (read more)

1Viliam
Well, do we want to fix the problem, or only to reduce its visibility? By "reducing visibility" I mean solutions where some individuals are still discriminated more than others, but the numbers don't show up when you do the statistics by race. As a reductio-ad-absurdum example, having cops additionally shoot a few innocent white people would fix the race statistics. I can imagine a few less obviously absurd solutions which would work in a similar way, some of them might even sound acceptable to an average reader. But if we want to solve the essence of the problem, well, either we need to make sure innocent bystanders are never killed, or that all people have the same chance to be in a proximity of crime. I don't think either is achievable. But there can be partial improvements in both directions. For example, if we could reduce the total number of innocent people killed, then in absolute numbers there would also be less black innocent people killed. Ironically, for the BLM purposes, this might not register as an improvement. Imagine that the probability of innocent people being killed drops to a half, and it drops to a half for each ethnic group. Obviously, this would be an improvement for everyone. But if you would calculate the ratio of the probabilities for different ethnic groups, in this model it would remain exactly the same, so BLM would have the same reason to complain. I am not sure about this, but maybe things like basic income could help poor people to get out of places with high crime. Imagine that whenever there is too much crime at some place, people who don't participate in the criminal activities start moving away, because it's easier for them. But probably I am just imagining things here.

If I remember correctly username2 is a shared account, so the person are talking to now might not be whom you have had previously conversed with. Just thought you should know because I don't want you to mistake the account with a static person.

0ingive
It's unlikely that it's not the same person, or people on average utilize shared accounts to try and share their suffering (by that I mean have a specific attitude) in a negative way. It would be interesting to compare shared accounts with other accounts by for example IBM Watson personality insights. In a large scale analysis. I would just ban them from the site. I'd rather see a troll spend time creating new accounts and people noticing the sign-up dates. Relevant: Internet Trolls Are Narcissists, Psychopaths, and Sadists By the way, I was not consciously aware of the user when I wrote my text or the analysis of the user agenda. But afterwards I remembered "oh it's that user again".

It was but it speaks of his underlying ideas and character to even be in the position to do that.

What do you mean by this? Assuming its a joke, why does it speaks to his character and underlying ideas; why would it, it wasn't meant for you to take seriously.

What would you want me to respond, if at all?

Probably not at all.

0ingive
Because a few words tell a large story when they also decided it was worth their time to write it. I wrote in my post and explained for example what type of viewpoints it implies and that it's stupid (in the sense inefficient and not aligned with reality). I will update my probabilities then as I gain more feedback.

Why I think people are not engaging you. But don't take this as a criticism of your ideas or questions.

  • You have been strongly associated with a certain movement, and people might not want to engage you in conversation even on different topics, because they are afraid your true intention is to lead the conversation back to ideas that they didn't want to talk with you about in the first place.

  • I think username2 was making a non-serious cheeky comment which went over your head and you responded with a wall of text touching on several ideas. People som

... (read more)
0username2
I was being cheeky, yes, but also serious. What do you call a perfect rationalist? A sociopath[1]. A fair amount of rationality training is basically reprogramming oneself to be mechanical in one's response to evidence and follow scripts for better decision making. And what kind of world would we live in if every single person was perfectly sociopathic in their behaviour? For this reason in part, I think the idea of making the entire world perfectly rationalist is a potentially dangerous proposition and one should at least consider how far along that trajectory we would want to take it. But the response I gave to ingive was 5 words because for all the other reasons you gave I did not feel it would be a productive use of my time to engage further with him. [1] ETA: Before I get nitpicked to death, I mean the symptoms often associated with high-functioning sociopathy, not the clinical definition which I'm aware is actually different from what most people associate with the term.
0ingive
You forgot to say that you think that. But for username 2's point, you had to reiterate that you think. That's unfortunate if it is the case if ideas which are outside their echo chamber create such fear, then what I say might be of use in the first place, if we all come together and figure things out :) It was but it speaks of his underlying ideas and character to even be in the position to do that. I don't mind it, I enjoy typing walls of texts. What would you want me to respond, if at all? Yeah, I think so too, but I do think there is a technological barrier in how this forum was setup for the type of problem-solving I am advising for. If we truly want to be Less Wrong, it's fine with how it is now, but there can definitely be improvements in an effort for the entire species rather than a small subset of it, 2k people.

Do we have the same definition of a troll? Just wondering because the term seems to have drifted and I wonder where I stand. One sided flaming is what I would call it, because the person is hostile and insulting, resulting from emotional discussion. IMO Trolling requires the deliberate intent to provoke, as if that was his whole reason to post here. It's more likely that this person is dead serious, but socially inept (too strong?)

This person has written volumes of stuff in various places for years, seems unlikely that he's just messing with people fo... (read more)

1Lumifer
Oh, not a vanilla troll, this was a prophet, bringing glorious and eternal truth to the unwashed masses. As befits a true prophet, he was laughed at and cast out by hoi polloi. Surely this proves the great significance of his message.
3moridinamael
I would have just gone with the term "crackpot" which I think has sufficiently clear meaning and points to exactly the right thing. They don't seem to be at all interested in actually convincing or communicating; they were much more interesting in establishing how persecuted they were. Now Flinter has deleted a large number of posts, but if he hadn't, you would be able to see that they gleefully continued all discussions that were combative but stopped responding on discussion threads where his points were being directly and dispassionately challenged. I see that as evidence that they were some flavor of ne'er-do-well, if not a typical "for the lulz" troll.

Is it possible to use moderation tools to hide the parent comment or move it. It doesn't even belong here and others have been nice enough to offer good feedback regardless. This is a welcome thread, and it's being derailed with bizarre behavior.

0Vaniver
Sadly, the only direct tool I have is comment deletion, which rather than pruning or hiding the tree below it replaces it with a box that says "Comment Deleted" and its children in place. I could ask Grothor to make a new intro thread, and then delete or draft this thread.

I suspect it degrades the quality of the site...

Your first paragraph venting your frustration at the 2 karma rule was unnecessary, but cool you realized that.

I think this post is fine as an Open Thread or as an introduction post. I don't see why it is necessary for its own discussion. Plus it seems like you are making an article stating that you will make an article. I don't think you need to do that. Just come right out and say what you have to say.

0Flinter
No you don't understand. I have something valuable to bring but I needed to make my INTRO post an independent one and I was stripped of that possibility by the process.

I have the same question as this OP. I didn't think any of the answers were helpful enough. Basically everything I could find regarding Assange's asylum with Ecuador stems from the threat of Sweden extraditing him to the U.S., however the threat of politically motivated deportation remains regardless of what happens in Sweden; the U.K. can just as well do it.

0Viliam
One of the answers says: My reading is that it could happen in any country, but it did happen frequently in Sweden. So, while the risk is non-zero everywhere, it still makes sense to avoid the place where it is too high. So why did Assange even go to Sweden? Another answer says: My reading is that Sweden is a good place for whistleblowers' servers, but not necessarily for the whistleblowers themselves. (Note: I have no opinion on factual correctness of these answers; I just posted them because they seem relevant to your question.)

I don't know what to think about Ego Depletion. When I first read about it, it felt quite intuitive and the research on it was robust. It came up everywhere I read. Then the whole replication crisis thing happened and serious doubts were cast on it. I updated towards a weaker effect.

I haven't given it much thought since, until I was recently reminded of the study about mental fatigue on parole board judges and how chances of granting parole were greatest at the beginning of the work day and right after a food break(replenish mental resources).

If Ego... (read more)

0Douglas_Knight
The effect size on the study of judges is too big to believe. Compared to that, removing the theoretical basis is a negligible problem.
0Viliam
That's a great observation! I heard about the judges, then about ego depletion, then about ego depletion not being replicated, but I wouldn't make the connection myself. My guess (I don't feel much certainty about this) would be that ego depletion is about frustration, and that the same task can feel differently frustrating for different people. Maybe some participants in the experiment didn't mind doing some tasks, which is why their "ego" didn't get "depleted". But a daily job is different than an experiment.

Being smart can make you more susceptible to some biases.

Agree but Dominic is making a much stronger claim in this excerpt, and I wish he would provide more evidence. It is a big claim that

  • the more educated are prone to irrational political opinions
  • average incomes are less likely to express political opinions to send signals.

These are great anecdotes but have there been any studies indicating a link between social status and willingness to express political views?

2bogus
I'm quite sure that this is wrong actually - that more educated folks still have better opinions about policy, but only weakly so. Bryan Caplan has pointed this out in his work on the irrationality of the common voter. It becomes right though when you control for rational judgment in private, non-political contexts - education greatly improves that and you would expect it to have the same effect in political judgments. But it doesn't, really. It's often pointed out that lower-income folks tend to be politically apathetic, so to the extent that they do have opinions on policy you would expect these to be less influenced by signaling dynamics. But signaling is not the only source of error (involving both random noise and persistent bias) in political judgments!

You have been noticeably not commenting. Care to comment why?

1Lumifer
I've been busy. To be frank, hanging out at LW isn't the most productive use of time, so I don't want to deliberately redirect my attention here. We'll see how it goes.

At this point, it seems like if it was written about in Cialdini's Influence, you can safely assume it's not real.

How well has the ideas presented in Cialdini's book held up? Scarcity heuristic, Physical attractiveness stereotype, and Reciprocity I thought were pretty solid and hasn't come under scrutiny, yet at least.

I understand your criticism much better now.

The endowment effect, or priming, maps pretty well to a lab.

Are you saying that cognitive biases like endowment effect and priming map better to lab settings therefore are less susceptible to contrived experiments to prove them like ego depletion?

I don't know whether or not these map well to a lab or not, but priming research is one of the major areas under going a replication crisis; not sure about the endowment effect.

Is your objection really that the topic has no relevance to LW or that because the information is found in so many other places that it has no relevance?

I appreciate summaries on LW even if they are found elsewhere because it provides for comments and discussion from a very particular group whose input which I prioritize(over other internet strangers). I often do a quick search on LW for new ideas I am exposed to, to get the LW spin. Say you just discovered this forum and you decided you like how everyone aspires to be a rationalist, but you have gaps ... (read more)

3chaosmage
That's exactly my point. The information posted here is a reformulation of exactly the type of material at Christian apologetics sites. It does not deserve to be in a place where you would encourage people to go to find truth.
3Brendan Long
Source?

Could you provide a simple linkage as to why the effect(less I know, easier it seems for the other specialized person) is a consequence of the availability bias?

One connection I could draw from the effect to the availability bias is the ease of recall of the less specialized person of successful resolutions of the specialized person. For example, a manager who has numerous recollections of being presented a problem and assigning it to the subordinate for a fix. The manager only sees the problem and the eventual fix, and none of the difficult roadblocks encountered by the workers, therefore the manager tends to underestimate the difficulty. I'm not sure if this is a connection you would agree with.

0Viliam
Indeed, "manager" was the example I had in mind while writing this. I am not aware of a research; this is from personal experience. In my experience, it seems to help when instead of one big black box you describe the work to the management as multiple black boxes. For example, instead of "building an artificial intelligence" you split it into "making a user interface for the AI", "designing a database structure for the AI", "testing the AI", etc. Then, if the managers have an intuitive idea of how much an unknown work takes (e.g. three days per black box), they agree that the more black boxes there are, the more days it will take. (On the other hand, this can also get horribly wrong if the managers -- by the virtue of "knowing" what the original black box consists of -- become overconfident in their understanding of the problem, and start giving you specific suggestions, such as to leave out some of the suggested smaller black boxes, because their labels don't feel important. Or inviting an external expert to solve one of the smaller black boxes as a thing separate from the rest of the problem, based on the manager's superficial understanding; so the expert will produce something irrelevant for your project in exchange for half of your budget, which you now have to include somehow and pretend to be grateful for it.)

Well it would certainly help me if all these Econo-technological optimists who took that survey speak up and tell me what they think about UBI please!

But I thank you for your simple linkage.

This means you're surprised that people who think that the economic growth will be high are strong supporters of basic income.

Yes!

I can propose a simple linkage as to why this is so: the no-stagnation people are (technological) optimists. They believe that in the near future there will be plenty of value/money/goods -- enough for everyone. If so, in this environment of plenty it makes sense to provide a UBI to everyone.

That is what I am trying to figure out; is this what they think? I have never encountered that way of thinking before, hence why I... (read more)

0Lumifer
Ah, but you're missing the sociopolitical aspects. See, if we don't do anything the greedy conniving capitalists will just steal all the gains for themselves and leave nothing for the working man and women and any other gender that someone might wish to identify as (cf. people like Piketty and Krugman, the key words are something like "real median wages"). We need to fleece the fat cats and equally distribute the fur! Econo-technological optimism merely provides assurances that there will enough fur to distribute. In a bit less snide manner, UBI is redistribution of wealth from more productive members of society to less productive ones. To be able to afford it, the society has to be wealthy. If you believe we are entering the post-scarcity era, UBI is no big deal (economically) since there is enough wealth for everyone, we just need to spread it out a bit more evenly. But if you believe we are not economically growing, there is a debt overhang, and things generally aren't getting better fast enough, why, UBI might be a luxury we can't afford.
0hairyfigment
Not sure I'm defending the UBI, but: we already have enough food to feed everyone on Earth. Plainly social factors can interfere with this rosy prediction.

Why the idea of economic well-being remaining the same supports the basic income proposal?

Wait isn't that the point? I'm not saying basic income will or will not work, just that the idea of economic well-being remaining the same or perhaps worse, might already be an undesirable outcome for those that strongly support basic income?

0Lumifer
Hold on. Rewind. You originally said that you are People who disagree with Great Stagnation presumably think that the economic growth will pick up and be high. This means you're surprised that people who think that the economic growth will be high are strong supporters of basic income. I can propose a simple linkage as to why this is so: the no-stagnation people are (technological) optimists. They believe that in the near future there will be plenty of value/money/goods -- enough for everyone. If so, in this environment of plenty it makes sense to provide a UBI to everyone. To me, though, it seems that Great Stagnation and UBI are orthogonal issues and having a position on one does not imply a particular position on the other.

I'll try: The main thesis is that economic growth has slowed in the United States and in other advanced economies, as a result of falling rates of innovation >>> belief that further advancing automation will not raise wages and stagnant wages will persist, >>>support basic income.

0Lumifer
If you think that the economic growth and wages will continue to stall, this implies that the living standards and general economic well-being will continue to be roughly the same (as opposed to the case of rapid economic growth when the living standards also rise rapidly). Why the idea of economic well-being remaining the same supports the basic income proposal?

Damn it, that was the worst time to make a typo. I meant Stagnation. But back to the point, I'm not following how someone could believe in the Great stagnation as presented in wikipedia to not having it be a motivating factor to support basic income.

0Lumifer
Why do you think that believing this claim should be a motivating factor to support basic income? How do you get from point A to point B?

But the surveyed belief was about entering the great stagflation.

EDIT: I mean stagnation

0Lumifer
It's not stagflation (which is the combination of low economic growth and high inflation) and the actual survey question said:

So the last survey has me a little surprised and confused regarding the amount of people who strongly disagree with entering great stagnation and strongly agree with basic income, all across the board.

Can someone shed some light on why this might be? I'm surprised because I would expect strong supporters of basic income to have some belief in the coming technological automation unemployment. You see this all the time in r/futurology, where they are always posting up articles talking about how jobs are going away and not coming back.

I'm not saying t... (read more)

0ChristianKl
People in r/futurology consider whether or not robots take away jobs a central political question. Most people don't. For most people the decision about whether basic income is a good idea is about whether they believe that people are more likely to engage in productive work if they are forced to search for a job and apply to jobs because they otherwise don't get government assistance. But even if we look at whether technology produces unemployement the fact that there's technological advancement means that it's possible to employ people to produce new products.
2Lumifer
As far as I understand the Great Stagnation, it's basically this. I think that a belief in "the coming technological automation" is perfectly consistent with the belief that the stagnation will end because robots are oh so much more productive.

I'm guilty of over updating towards stupid/crazy when ever someone has a cranky belief. I was on board with the bullying of Ben Carson, but in hindsight the man is a neurosurgeon; I'm pretty sure he's smarter than me.

4turchin
I think we should also look not on believe itself, but in the way it is pesented, for example if a person knows that his believe is untypical and that publicly claiming it could damage his reputation. For example if one say: "I give 1 per cent probability to very unusual idea that pyramids was built for X, because I read Y" it will be good signaling about his intelligence. Another thing is that if we search entire internet history of a person for most stupid claim he ever did, we will be biased to underestimate his intelligence.

Since you have a child, have you heard of Elimination Communication and what is your opinion?

1James_Miller
Haven't heard of it.

Agree. There have been an influx of posts and almost no comments to go with them, looks sad. SSC's most recent post is really interesting but almost no comments, perhaps because it has already been discussed on SSC, maybe this will help.

1Lumifer
SSC got a little burned out by the election madness.

we are all 'useful idiots' of a sort.

It's sheep all the way up!

0Lumifer
Sheep all the way up, turtles all the way down, and here we are stuck in the middle!

I have already spent hours researching this topic.

I applaud your effort and hope your hours spent means others' saved.

1Viliam
Thanks! I feel weird about this whole thing. Similarly how I feel weird about Gleb. I don't want to make a full conclusion for others (that feels like too much responsibility), but at least I can point them directly towards the imporant parts, so they don't have to google and watch promotional videos. Here is the good part -- a PDF booklet with some useful advice on instrumental rationality. It would make a good LW article, if some parts were removed. magnet:?xt=urn:btih:e3ade7cdccc4aba33789686b9b9d765d7f14ae7b&dn=Real+Answers&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.leechers-paradise.org%3A6969&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fzer0day.ch%3A1337&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fopen.demonii.com%3A1337&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.coppersurfer.tk%3A6969&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fexodus.desync.com%3A6969 Here are the bad parts -- wiki (just read the main page), and reddit forum (click on a few random articles, they all feel the same, and the responses all feel the same) The rest is just marketing, hyping the contents of the wiki and of the book over and over again. This is my conclusion after ~10 hours of looking at various materials; maybe there is something more that I missed, also I didn't listen to the podcasts. This all seems to be a one man show; a guy whose main strength is making popular youtube videos, and being a successful poker player in the past.
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