All of outlawpoet's Comments + Replies

That is an excellent question.

I must agree with this, although video and most writing OTHER than short essays and polemics would be mostly novel, and interesting.

If every snide, unhelpful jokey reply you post is secretly a knowing reference to something only one other person in the world can recognize, I retract every bad thing I ever said about you.

Is then the ability to explicitly (at a high, abstract level) reach down to the initial hypothesis generation and include, raise, or add hypotheses for consideration always a pathology?

I can imagine a system where extremely low probability hypotheses, by virtue of complexity or special evidence required, might need to be formulated or added by high level processes, but you could simply view that as another failure of the generation system, and require that even extremely rare or novel structures of hypotheses must go through channels to avoid this kind of disturbance of natural frequencies, as it were.

It may not be a completely generic bias or fallacy, but it certainly can affect more than just human decision processes. There are a number of primitive systems that exhibit pathologies similar to what Eliezer is describing, speech recognition systems, for example, have a huge issue almost exactly isomorphic to this. Once some interpretation of a audio wave is a hypothesis, it is chosen in great excess to it's real probability or confidence. This is the primary weakness of rule-based voice grammars, that their pre-determined possible interpretations lead t... (read more)

1Eliezer Yudkowsky
At that point we're dealing with a full-fledged artificial heuristic and bias - the generation system is the heuristic, and the bias is the overly limited collection of hypotheses it manages to formulate for explicit attention at a given point. I'd reserve "fallacy" for motivated or egregious cases, the sort that humans try to get away with.

The bloodstained sweater in the original song refers to an urban legend that Mr. Rogers was a Marine Sniper in real life.

Why on earth wouldn't I consider whether or not I would play again? Am I barred from doing so?

If I know that the card game will continue to be available, and that Omega can truly double my expected utility every draw, either it's a relatively insignificant increase of expected utility over the next few minutes it takes me to die, in which case it's a foolish bet, compared to my expected utility over the decades I have left, conservatively, or Omega can somehow change the whole world in the radical fashion needed for my expected utility over the next few m... (read more)

I see, I misparsed the terms of the argument, I thought it was doubling my current utilons, you're positing I have a 90% chance of doubling my currently expected utility over my entire life.

The reason I bring up the terms in my utility function, is that they reference concrete objects, people, time passing, and so on. So, measuring expected utility, for me, involves projecting the course of the world, and my place in it.

So, assuming I follow the suggested course of action, and keep drawing cards until I die, to fulfill the terms, Omega must either give me... (read more)

1DanArmak
Like Douglas_Knight, I don't think current utilons are a useful unit. Suppose your utility function behaves as you describe. If you play once (and win, with 90% probability), Omega will modify the universe in a way that all the concrete things you derive utility from will bring you twice as much utility, over the course of the infinite future. You'll live out your life with twice as much of all the things you value. So it makes sense to play this once, by the terms of your utility function. You don't know, when you play your first game, whether or not you'll ever play again; your future includes both options. You can decide, for yourself, that you'll play once but never again. It's a free decision both now and later. And now a second has passed and Omega is offering a second game. You remember your decision. But what place do decisions have in a utility function? You're free to choose to play again if you wish, and the logic for playing is the same as the first time around... Now, you could bind yourself to your promise (after the first game). Maybe you have a way to hardwire your own decision procedure to force something like this. But how do you decide (in advance) after how many games to stop? Why one and not, say, ten? OTOH, if you decide not to play at all - would you really forgo a one-time 90% chance of doubling your lifelong future utility? How about a 99.999% chance? The probability of death in any one round of the game can be made as small as you like, as long as it's finite and fixed for all future rounds. Is there no probability at which you'd take the risk for one round?
4Douglas_Knight
I don't think "current utilons" makes that much sense. Utilons should be for a utility function, which is equivalent to a decision function, and the purpose of decisions is probably to influence the future. So utility has to be about the whole future course of the world. "Currently expected utilons" means what you expect to happen, averaged over your uncertainty and actual randomness, and this is what the dilemma should be about. "Current hedons" certainly does make sense, at least because hedons haven't been specified as well.

I seem to have missed some context for this, I understand that once you've gone down the road of drawing the cards, you have no decision-theoretic reason to stop, but why would I ever draw the first card?

A mere doubling of my current utilons measured against a 10% chance of eliminating all possible future utilons is a sucker's bet. I haven't even hit a third of my expected lifespan given current technology, and my rate of utilon acquisition has been accelerating. Quite aside from the fact that I'm certain my utility function includes terms regarding living a long time, and experiencing certain anticipated future events.

1DanArmak
If you accept that you're maximizing expected utility, then you should draw the first card, and all future cards. It doesn't matter what terms your utility function includes. The logic for the first step is the same as for any other step. If you don't accept this, then what precisely do you mean when you talk about your utility function?

It's useful evidence that EURISKO was doing something. There were some extremely dedicated and obsessive people involved in Traveller, back then. The idea that someone unused to starship combat design of that type could come and develop fleets that won decisively two years in a row seems very unlikely.

It might be that EURISKO acted merely as a generic simulator of strategy and design, and Lenat did all the evaluating, and no one else in the contest had access to simulations of similar utility, which would negate much of the interest in EURISKO, I think.

2asciilifeform
How many of them made use of any kind of computer? How many had any formal knowledge applicable to this kind of optimization?

There are a number of DARPA and IARPA projects we pay attention to, but I'd largely agree that their approaches and basic organization makes them much less worrying.

They tend towards large, bureaucratically hamstrung projects, like PAL, which the last time I looked included work and funding for teams at seven different universities, or they suffer from extreme narrow focus, like their intelligent communication initiatives, which went from being about adaptive routing via deep introspection of multimedia communication and intelligent networks, to just bein... (read more)

I jumped the theist fence after reading a book whose intellectual force was too great to be denied outright, and too difficult to refute point by point. I hate being wrong, and feeling stupid, and the arguments from the book stayed in my thoughts for a long time.

I didn't formalize my thoughts until later, but if my atheism had a cause, it was THE CASE AGAINST GOD by George H Smith. I was very emotionally satisfied with my religion and it's community beforehand.

1Mike Bishop
Anybody tried both of these? I think everyone should use similar software. Its an incredibly low cost route to more self-knowledge and discipline.

I'm not really interested in actual party divisions so much as I am interested in a survey of beliefs.

Affiliation seems like much less useful information, if we're going to use Aumann-like agreement processes on this survey stuff.

Yes, it might be more useful to list some wedge issues that usually divide the parties in the US.

0JulianMorrison
Those won't divide the parties outside the US. Every political party in Britain aside from the extreme fringe are for the availability of abortion and government provision of free healthcare, for example. And things that do divide the parties here, like compulsory ID cards, don't divide the parties in the US.

Doesn't that make the problem worse, though?

If the feedback is esteem of students in the field, then you're rewarding the mentor who picks his battles carefully, who can sell what happened on any encounter in a positive and understandable light. The honest mentors and 'researchers' who approach a varied population, analyze their performance without upselling, and accrete performance over time(as you'd expect with a real, generic skill) will lose out.

5gwern
If I may: based on my minimal reading of PUA blogs & essays, I get the impression that picking battles carefully, & spinning losses, is exactly what is valuable about the techniques. Consider the previously mentioned thesis: the author's brother was not interested in a goal like 'increasing, over the population of all females, the success of an approach' or 'learning how to pick up any girl', but rather something like 'how to get a reasonably attractive girl, period'. If the seduction techniques worked on only one girl in an entire bar (but infallibly), that'd be fine by them. (I was particularly struck by one PUA who spent at least 2000 words discussing how to differentiate women who might sleep with him that night from 'princesses' who would require many dates and gifts before even considering sex.)
0Cyan
That would be the case if the students were buying just the experience of watching the guru. The students expect rather more than that.

I found the last survey interesting because of the use of ranges and confidence measures. Are there any other examples of this that a community response would be helpful for?

What is the time-urgency, if you don't mind my asking? Other than Vassar's ascension, the Summer of Code projects, and LessWrong, I wasn't aware of anything going on at SingInst with any kind of schedule.

My first attempt at volunteering for Eliezer ended badly, for outside and personal reasons, and I haven't seriously considered it since, mostly because I didn't really understand the short-term goals of SingInst(Or I didn't agree with what I did understand of them).

Also, to be honest, the last thing that I found useful (in terms of my Singularitarian goals) to come out of it was CEV, which was quite a while ago now. Are there new projects, or private projects coming to public view? Why now?

2AnnaSalamon
The time-urgency is just that we may gather interns for the summer (summer being convenient for those in school, which includes some though not all of the pool of potential interns), and summer will be here soon. As to new projects: if we have a summer interns group, then, yes. See the "plausible projects" list above.

Yes, that's true. I think I was fighting a rearguard action here, trying to defend my hypothesis. I've changed my votes accordingly. Cheers to you and Yvain.

Gene transfer also resolves some very puzzling and ugly irregularities. Sometimes the beauty isn't just the theory, but it's relationship to data. If a theory's very elegant, but the data too messy, it disturbs my sense of completion.

I'm not sure that's true. Lots of people would want to know how to make the improved solar technology, because it would be immensely commercially valuable.

Also, I tend to think people's beliefs about technology, science, and the way to solve problems would change, given a large change in energy infrastructure.

People use pervasive technology or social structures as a metaphor for many things, especially new ideas. Witness how early 20th century theorists use mechanical and hydraulic metaphors in their theories of the body and brain, whereas late 20th century biologists use network, electrical, and systems metaphors that simply didn't exist before.

3PhilGoetz
I agree with Yvain - the pyramid on Mars would radically change our beliefs, make us re-evaluate all of history and archaeology and geology, and reprioritize national science funding.

As a total sidenote, your choice of examples is bad. If someone solved photosynthesis in a way that output useful engineerable technologies, it would change your life, and the lives of almost everybody else.

Solar power cheap and powerful enough to run most of our technology would be a massive sea change.

8Scott Alexander
No, I don't think the choice of examples is bad - I had another draft where I used understanding the pathogenesis of some common disease as an example, which is even more clearly beneficial. My point is that even when rational analysis tells us that something will be very useful, the "sense of curiosity" can disagree. Otherwise, we'd all be fascinated by immunology because of its high probability of giving us a cure for cancer and AIDS. Likewise, discovering that Stonehenge was built by aliens would be practically useless unless it provided some way of contacting the aliens or using their technology, but it would still be considered "interesting". That's why I didn't include "gives a practical benefit" as a criterion. Instead I said "changes a lot of beliefs", which a better understanding of photosynthesis wouldn't, and "teaches you something that other people want to know", which photosynthesis again wouldn't (lots of people would want the improved solar technology, but not many people would care how it worked).

I agree. Mensa and the AMA aren't actually avowedly rational, nor do they have any group goals that require the same, but they are weakly rational groups, because they contain a lot of smart people and they have institutional biases against failures of intelligence and opinion.

This keeps out certain types of dysrationalia, which is all I needed for my comparison to more vulnerable groups like the LDS and those Charismatic Protestants.

3JulianMorrison
I'd say they have no better success at rationalism than the Mormons. All they have is a reactive distaste for some of the traditional symptoms of dumb, including the sillier kinds of religion. They are completely undefended against other death spirals, even closely related ones concerning silly but detailed theories with no evidence.

The best argument against it is that it isn't really a unique descriptor such that it can be falsified usefully.

Most posts and comments on LessWrong would work just as well if the authors were frequentist statisticians, old fashioned logical positivists, or even people who couldn't really do the math. The epistemic viewpoint doesn't actually hang off of a uniquely Bayesian procedure.

Utilitarianism is an ethical theory, put forth by John Stuart Mill. It's distinct from confusingly similar technical terms like expected utility, and is definitely not a unanimous ethical position around here.

A point further in favor, dysrationalia accumulates in groups much as the small advantages you describe do.

Mensa and AMA members may not have superpowers(to pick two weakly rationalist groups), but they also don't spend millions of dollars sponsoring attempts to locate Noah's Ark, or traces of the Jewish tribe that the LDS church believes existed in South America.

6hirvinen
Using the martial arts metaphor, at least Mensa appears to be more about having a lot of muscle, not about fighting skills, and there isn't a strong agenda to improve either.

Oh, um, in case it wasn't clear, I think everybody would have their own array of negative and positive descriptors. I don't think we're that similar.

I think the 'identity' we're ascribing to the nascent community here is more complicated than any existing labels. Maybe we could build one, but I don't think there is one now.

I generally label myself contextually, in response to kinds of evaluation being made in the conversation or missive:

When I'm trying to emphasize my commitment to quantifiable, established knowledge or highlight my rejection of a concept of school of thought I feel falls outside that, I call myself a Scientist.

When the discussion centers on reflective beliefs, conceptual methodology,... (read more)

0outlawpoet
Oh, um, in case it wasn't clear, I think everybody would have their own array of negative and positive descriptors. I don't think we're that similar.

er, am I misparsing this?

It seems to me that if you haven't hit the ground while skydiving, you're some sort of magician, or you landed on an artificial structure and then never got off..

In a manner which matches the fortuity, if not the consequence, of Archimedes' bath and Newton's apple, the [3.6 million year old] fossil footprints were eventually noticed one evening in September 1976 by the paleontologist Andrew Hill, who fell while avoiding a ball of elephant dung hurled at him by the ecologist David Western.

~John Reader, Missing Links: The Hunt for Earliest Man

I have attempted explicit EU calculations in the past, and have had to make very troubling assumptions and unit approximations, which has limited my further experimentation.

I would be very interested in seeing concrete examples and calculation rules in plausible situations.

It depends on what you mean by wrecking. Morphine, for example, is pretty safe. You can take it in useful, increasing amounts for a long time. You just can't ever stop using it after a certain point, or your brain will collapse on itself.

This might be a consequence of the bluntness of our chemical instruments, but I don't think so. We now have much more complicated drugs that blunt and control physical withdrawal and dependence, like Subutex and so forth, but the recidivism and addiction numbers are still bad. Directly messing with your reward mechanisms just doesn't leave you a functioning brain afterward, and I doubt wireheading of any sophistication will either.

Well, that's an interesting question. If you wanted to just feel maximum happiness in a something like your own mind, you could take the strongest dopamine and norepinephrin reuptake inhibitors you could find.

If you didn't care about your current state, you could get creative, opioids to get everything else out of the way, psychostimulants, deliriants. I would need to think about it, I don't think anyone has ever really worked out all the interactions. It would be easy to achieve a extremely high bliss, but some interactions work would be required to figu... (read more)

2Lawliet
Current drugs will only give you a bit of pleasure before wrecking you in some way or another. CronoDAS should be doing his best to stay alive, his current pain being a down payment on future real wireheading.

It's fairly straightforward to max out your subjective happiness with drugs today, why wait?

3AllanCrossman
Is it? What drugs?
  • Handle: outlawpoet
  • Name: Justin Corwin
  • Location: Playa del Rey California
  • Age: 27
  • Gender: Male
  • Education: autodidact
  • Job: researcher/developer for Adaptive AI, internal title: AI Psychologist
  • aggregator for web stuff

Working in AI, cognitive science and decision theory are of professional interest to me. This community is interesting to me mostly out of bafflement. It's not clear to me exactly what the Point of it is.

I can understand the desire for a place to talk about such things, and a gathering point for folks with similar opinions about them, but ... (read more)

0[anonymous]
deleted
4Paul Crowley
I suspect we're going to hear more about the goal in May. We're not allowed to talk about it, but it might just have to do with exi*****ial r*sk...

Not something I was aware of, but good to know.

I wasn't aware of anything from before his career as an academic, 1982-onward. His wikipedia article doesn't mention anything but the atom thing. But he certainly set out to be a Professor of rationality-topics.

I agree with this comment vociferously.

The upper bound isn't a terrible idea, but it would, for example, knock E.T. Jaynes out of the running as a desirable rationality instructor, as the only unrelated competent activity I can find for him is the Jaynes-Cumming Model of atomic evolution, which I have absolutely zero knowledge of.

8saturn
Regardless of the merits of E. T. Jaynes, we should place the activity of a rationality instructor in a separate mental bucket than a rationality theoretician. I would say that making a significant original intellectual advance counts as a real accomplishment.

knock E.T. Jaynes out of the running

Dude, what on Earth are you talking about. E. T. Jaynes was a Big Damn Polymath. I seem to also recall that in his later years he was well-paid for teaching oil companies how to predict where to drill, though that's not mentioned in the biography (and wouldn't rank as one of his most significant accomplishments anyway).

Playa del Rey, by the beach just south of Santa Monica and West of LA proper.

One of my previous co-workers ran a San Diego chapter. He enjoyed it a great deal, but that may have been because he was in charge, and shaping the meetings and context towards what he was interested in.

Lots and lots of fairly loose speculation on topics outside their specialties, lots of puzzles and mind-games. It wasn't really very fun for me, although the gender ratio was better than I expected.

would that mean that on default settings, a post or comment would be invisible until someone voted for it? Should I set my filters for -1?

3MBlume
As I recall, on default settings, you screen comments below -4

This raises the question of what positive attributes we can attempt to apply to this little sub-culture of aspiring rationalists. Shared goals? Collaborative action?

Some have already been implying heavily that rationality implies certain actions in the situation most of us find ourselves in, does it make sense to move forward with that?

Is success here just enabling the growth of strong rationalist individuals, who go forth and succeed in whatever they choose to do, or to shape a community, valuing rationality, which accomplishes things?

Is it possible to do some processing of posts and comments to automagically add links to the wiki for technical terms(possibly any word or phrase with it's own page?).

I'm thinking of the annoying ad-word javascript that some sites do. I've always thought it would be useful to do that linking without the author needing to(but possibly being able to override), but most wikis require you to make links manually, because of ambiguity. Given the specialist nature of this wiki, shouldn't that be less of a problem?

1Paul Crowley
I think doing it automagically would be bad, but if we could make [[square brackets]] work, that would be wonderful.

I always thought the Ixian and Tleilaxu(who, it should be noted, can clone unlimited copies of the most powerful mentats they could find samples of) would have done much better in a fair Dune universe.

One thing I've never seen in these threads about rationalist literature is RPG handbooks. The 2nd Edition Dungeon Master's Guide had an enormous influence on me, because it suggested that the world ran on understandable, deterministic rules, which could be applied both to explicate dramatic situations, and to predict the outcome of situations not yet seen.

O... (read more)

In this case? Yes. Even if the Nazis had Omega-like powers, you'd still want to fool them - they're not any sort of game-theoretic counterpart who you wish would trust your honesty. I'm not entirely sure I'm describing all the factors here, but this scenario doesn't even feel to me like it's about the quantity ordinarily known as honesty, there is no bond you are breaking.

The proper form of this scenario is if a Nazi soldier who's feeling conflicted comes to you and says he wants to talk to you, but only if you vow silence. You do, and he tells you tha... (read more)

Why not just vote the topic up, and comment what you like? The score on the topic or comment will be high, even if there aren't a lot of people saying "you rock" in the comments.

Isn't that the same signal?

7Technologos
Voting the topic up can send signals other than agreement--I vote up articles which I find interesting but with which I disagree. Explicit (dis)agreement would reduce the noise in the up/down metric. Also, stating agreement prior to a negative remark helps with interpretation without nonverbal clues.
5SoullessAutomaton
Voting up fails to distinguish between the overall point, the individual arguments, the novelty of the point made, and other possible factors. There's a big difference between "I agree with your entire point", "I agree with most of your arguments, but I dispute point 3 which may undermine the point being made", and "I think you've made a novel and plausible point, but I disagree with it", all of which are (for me at least) valid reasons to upvote something. Simply voting up and commenting makes it unclear which of the above, if any, a given commenter feels.

Having differing updating speeds for different pages is a good idea.

I favor a lot of posting and commenting, at least initially. It's not clear to me what kinds of ideas and communication is going to be promoted by this community, and I think a wide variety of possible things for reader/commenter/providers to latch onto provides the most possibility of something interesting coming out of this.

As other commenters have said, I imagine people will lose enthusiasm or run out of ideas eventually anyway, and we'll settle into a steadier state of posts/comments.

I first began to separate the concept of truth-seeking from specific arguments of fact late in life, as a teenage catholic who was given a copy of The Case Against God.

A way to see the number of comments a particular post has would be useful

1wmoore
This has now been implemented.
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