All of Patrick's Comments + Replies

Patrick90

Point me to where Luke denied that academia has any advantages over LW. If you're going to claim that LW is obviously not "the highest-quality relatively-general-interest forum on the web", it would help your case to provide an obvious counterexample (academic channels themselves are generally not on the web, and LW has some advantages over them, even if the reverse is also true). LW is also not as homogeneous as you appear to believe; plenty of us are academics.

You're straw-manning here. Not conceding isn't the same thing as denying. To not ... (read more)

-1AlexMennen
I'm not sure why anyone would expect a post about trying to attract academics to LW to mention that academia has some advantages over LW. It's just not relevant to the subject. The fact that MIRI has been increasingly making use of academic channels is an implicit concession that they have advantages. Ok, yes, there are web-based academic channels. StackExchange is even a good contender for highest-quality relatively-general-interest forum on the web. (Cracked? Are you kidding?)
0Crux
Another channel where academics hang out: 1. Less Wrong What's up with this dichotomy between LW and academia? I'm sure plenty of people on here have high-level degrees or work in some academic field. Also: What are a few examples of the arrogance you see against academia on this forum? I would actually express the opposite view, and say that LW is pretty friendly to academia, with people citing mainstream books and articles all the time, etc. Not much fringe stuff going on here as far as I can tell.
Patrick20

The colloquial definition is "Useless but impressive and flatters my vanity".

The probabilistic definition is "Observable thing X signals quality A means P(A|X) > P(A)".

The economic definition is "Alice signals P to Bob by X if the net cost of X to Alice is outweighed by the benefits of Bob 'believing' A, and X causes Bob to 'believe' A even when Bob takes in to account that Alice wants him to 'believe' A." (note 'believe' A means 'act as if A were true'.)

0DanArmak
Useless to whom? Newton was respected for coming up with useful theories and natural science, not just pure philosophy or non-applied math. You could maybe argue that his work was rarely useful to him personally, so he only did it as "signalling" to get respect from others to whom it was useful. But under that theory, any division of labor where people are paid money for their work which is only useful to others would be called "signalling". That's true: that Newton came up with good theories in the past is evidence he'll come up with more good theories in the future. It signals his quality as a scientist. But this is a good thing (as opposed to the usual negative implied connotations of "mere signalling"). And the reason it's a good thing is that his scientific work was actually useful, so it's a good thing others could identify this and reward him to make him do more useful work. That's just saying "people will choose to signal if benefits exceed costs". It's true, but it doesn't explain to me the original statement: Which says "signalling' in this instance is something that motivates people in the absence of things being useful in their own right.
Patrick150

The definition of limit: "lim x -> a f(x) = c " means for all epsilon > 0, there exists delta > 0 such that for all x, if 0 < |x-a|<delta then |f(x) - c| < epsilon.

The definition of derivative: f'(x) = lim h -> 0 (f(x+h) - f(x))/h

That is, for all epsilon > 0, there exists delta > 0 such that for all h, if 0 < |h| < delta then |(f(x+h) - f(x))/h - f'(x)| < epsilon.

At no point do we divide by 0. h never takes on the value 0.

Patrick70

I will attend. Is it OK if I bring my boyfriend (User:MixedNuts) along via my iPad?

2Maelin
Sure.
Patrick50

I'm open to coworking generally.

My ideal coworker is someone who is funny and interested in maths, physics and computer science. My plan would be to read books like Mathematics Form and Function or The Feynman Lectures on Physics and try to summarize / explain the content. For co working where I shut up, I am working on re-implementing MC-AIXI for my honours thesis.

Please contact me if interested, my email is patrick.robotham2@gmail.com my skype nick is grey_fox26

Patrick20

You're accusing me of group selectionism? We might disagree on a point of terminology, but come on, I'm not a completely nutter. Anyway, my point in quoting the wikipedia article is that too much dishonest signalling makes signalling completely pointless ('weakens the integrity of the signalling system'), so for signalling to work you need some way of keeping out the cheats. I'm not proposing anything as daft as "groups without cheats will prosper". Indeed, that's why I was making such a big deal about criterion 4 and cost asymmetry, because the ... (read more)

0wedrifid
No, I carefully avoided that particular charge because it doesn't strictly apply even to the author that you quote---at least not without additional context. Nevertheless, thankyou for elaborating on which part of the quote you intended to emphasize. You are indeed a non-nutter.
Patrick20

No. I think that because lying is common in human society, a credible signal must be costly to liars.

-5Peterdjones
Patrick30

Well I'm happy to use "costly signalling". I was under the impression that costly signalling was signalling. If it isn't costly, at least for potential fakes, then I'm not sure how it can serve as an explanation for behavior. Why should I signal when the fakes can signal just as easily? What is there to gain? I think at the very least, there has to be some mechanism for keeping out cheats, even if it's rarity. From the wikipedia article on signalling theory:

" If many animals in a group send too many dishonest signals, then their entire signa... (read more)

1wedrifid
Did you just use the appeal 'weakens the fitness of the group' to predict or describe the signalling behaviors of individuals? A lot of signalling is bad for the group, whether honest or dishonest. When it happens to be good for the group that is, well, good for the group but not something one should necessarily expect from an individual.
1Peterdjones
Do you conclude from that tha lying is extremely rare in human society?
Patrick20

A rube is a sucker, someone easily deceived.The slogan means that potential signalling explanations shouldn't assume that the receiver of the signals is stupid.

Patrick20

Why not? Can't we regard evolutionary signalling as completely analogous to cognitive signalling, just as played by genes over a much longer time scale?

Patrick20

That I'm a poor writer! Fixed.

Patrick00

I meant the peacock example evolutionarily. I got it from The Selfish Gene.

0hyporational
I thought so. I think it might be useful to have a different word for signaling on each side of the e-c boundary, since signaling clearly can't mean the same thing on both sides.
Patrick60

Don't I feel like an idiot. Sorry Katja!

Patrick20

I agree. I think you can use signalling to explain this decision, but I wouldn't say that it's otherwise inexplicable. I guess I was being too cheeky.

Patrick10

I do think that cost asymmetry is a defining feature of signalling. To me, signalling is a way of getting around the problem of cheap talk. To me, a "cheap signal" is like an "unenforceable pre-commitment". It defeats the point. (Of course, many people talk about pre-commitments without actually discussing the mechanics of enforcement. I view this as a grievous omission.)

I probably was too absolutist in my criteria, they should probably be read with an invisible "ceteris paribus" attached to them. I'm happy to talk of weak and... (read more)

2Psychohistorian
The word "signal" dates back to the 14th century. The use of the word as a verb dates back to at least the 17th century. The specific meaning you are trying to use seems to have started in the mid-to-late 20th century. That's the issue. Signaling means what you say it means, but it also has a broader meaning. If I do an action that I wouldn't do were it not for the fact that others observe me doing it, it seems very likely that part of my motivation is signaling. The manager clearly qualifies for this, as she would not be "acting decisively" but for the fact that she is being observed. (I also think that Gresham's Law is the wrong one, or that you need a bit of an explanation to tie it into this behaviour, but that's besides the point; the fact that there is a more precise name for a problem does not make that the only name for the problem.). Unenforceable pre-commitments are still precommitments. If I promise never to cheat on my spouse again, despite a long history of cheating, I've made a commitment. It's not a very credible commitment, but it still belongs in the set labeled, "commitments." If you define "commitment" to only count "credible commitment," you've essentially created a new word. As with any debate over definitions, this can get circular rather quickly. My point is this: if you want people to use the word "signal" to mean something very specific, and to abandon the conventional use of the word, you need to provide a viable alternative definition, and you need to explain why it would be more productive to abandon the conventional use of the term. I do not think your definition is viable, because it necessarily involves an arbitrary cost threshold. Even if your definition were viable, I don't see how you've shown that there is a problem with the conventional use of the term. Yes, there are different types of signals that differ in important ways, but I don't see why this warrants completely changing how we use the term, rather than specifying weak vs

mental note: Always check the byline

If you never make a proofreading mistake you are doing too much proofreading.

9Peterdjones
To me, signalling through cheap talk is like spam: it rarely works, but the costs are low and there's a lot of it about.
6A1987dM
That particular post is by Katja Grace.

It may be possible to rescue the word "signal", but it's going to take an equally evocative word that covers what people think they mean by "signal". "Stealing associations" isn't going to work because it's not one word. Robin covers a lot of mileage with "affiliate" but many times when people say "signal" they don't mean "costly-signal" or "affiliate".

Patrick20

Now that you mention it, I think this does occur, although I think most of the judgement is directed at the 'signaller' (or in my language 'panderer') for being vain or duplicitous, although I don't like saying I'm offended by it ("Offense is a sign of a weak and bourgeois mind" says my inner Dali.)

I think that 'pandering' does carry the connotations of how 'signalling' is used, but I'm happy to accept alternatives. One I can think of right away is "appealing to", and I'd be happy to switch from 'pandering' to 'appealing' if you like.

0fiddlemath
"Influencing" is pretty neutral, if not very specific. "Exploiting the halo effect" is too long, but precise.
Patrick20

I just mean the latter. I think explanations involving pandering can work. The trouble I have with models that postulate stupidity, is that they need people to be stupid in a convenient direction. Stupidity is a much larger target than intelligence after all. I think explanation involving pandering work if you can explain (like you did with the affect hueristic) why these tricks will work on people.

Out of curiosity, what are the connotations of the word "rube" that make you suspicious?

7Peterdjones
But I am not convinced that your examples actualy do that. The idiots are where they are because they have Won -- they have been playing the games of Climb The Coroporate Ladder and Look After Number One But Don't Make It Obvious quite succesfuly. It/s a lesswrongian prejjudice that the only game anyone would want to play is Highly Competent But Criminally Underappreciated Backroom Boffin. They don;t get sacked because their superiors are playing the same game according to the same rules. You could object that companies where dick-swinging is appreciated more than achieving goals and targets won't have a long term future. Well, if there is someone in the chain who is playing Build A Company with a Lasting Future, then they're being stupid. But rationality is achiveing your goals. They've achieved theirs.
3Nick_Tarleton
Low status, contemptibility, etc. I expect making status hierarchies salient to make people less rational (hence fully generic suspicion), and I had the specific hypothesis that you might see people using 'signaling' models as judging others as contemptible and be offended by this. Relatedly, I dislike calling the behavior in question "pandering", since I expect using condemnatory terms for phenomena to make them aversive to look at closely, and to lead to bias in attribution (against seeing them in oneself/'good' people and towards seeing them in 'bad' people, as well as towards seeing people who unambiguously exhibit them as 'bad').
Patrick10

Fair enough. We could have "number expressions" which denote the same number, like "ssss0", "4", "2+2", "2*2". Then the question of well-definedness is whether our method of computing addition gives the same result for each of these different number expressions.

Patrick10

"Why does 2+2 come out the same way each time?"

Thoughts that seem relevant:

  1. Addition is well defined, that is if x=x' and y=y' then x+y = x'+y'. Not every computable transformation has this property. Consider the non-well-defined function <+> on fractions given by a/b <+> c/d = (a+c)/(b+d) We know that 3/9 = 1/3 and 2/5 = 4/10 but 7/19 != 3/8.

  2. We have the Church-Rosser Theorem http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church%E2%80%93Rosser_theorem as a sort of guarantee (in the lambda calculus) that if I compute one way and you compute another,

... (read more)
4[anonymous]
I'd say that your "non-well-defined function on fractions" isn't actually a function on fractions at all; it's a function on fractional expressions that fails to define a function on fractions.
Patrick50

The belief that one can find out something about real things by speculation alone is one of the most long-lived delusions in human thought. It is the spirit of antiscience which is always trying to lead men away from the study of reality to the spinning of fanciful theories out of their own minds. It is the spirit which every one of us (whether he is engaged in scientific investigation or in deciding how to use his vote in an election) must cast out of his own mind. Mastery of the art of thought is only the beginning of the task of understanding reality. Without the correct facts it can only lead us into error.

-- Robert H. Thouless, Straight and Crooked Thinking

Patrick20

I don't think there can be any such rule.

Patrick00

On the political use, see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_elite

I bring up the political connotations because I don't think Less Wrong is particularly snobbish or exclusionary, and I think there are more flattering reasons why someone might choose to label themselves as "elitist".

Personally, I think the word "elitist" is too politically charged and emotionally laden to be of much use. There are a few different questions that the word lumps in together, I outline them below and my opinion of them.

Question 1. Should this site b... (read more)

Patrick20

The word "elitist" has political connotations. It is often used in right wing political discourse as a slur against liberals. For example the phrase "intellectual elite" is used a great deal in this article defending Sarah Palin. Some of these upvotes may be made by people who interpret "do you think elitism is bad" as asking "Do you hate university professors and would you vote for Sarah Palin?"

2Epiphany
Thank you for pointing this out. I don't bother with politics, (I quit being interested a long time ago when I realized that nothing was being solved and no one was looking for solutions that would get to the root of the problem because they seemed to prefer squabbling) so I didn't know that. I see now that it's something I really need to learn more about if I want to understand elitism better. And I do. Would you mind explaining more or, if you know of good reading materials, direct me?
0Emile
It's interesting that "elitist" doesn't strike me as being politically charged - I would even be hard-pressed to tell whether it seems more left-wing or right-wing (if it wasn't for your comment, I'd tend to call it slightly right-wing). Maybe it's because elitism vs. anti-intellectualism isn't as much of a hot political issue here in France; maybe French people (or French politicians?) are less hung-up about seeming elitist than people in lesser countries. This article seems to indicate a clear cultural difference between at least France and the US on the issue of elitism.
Patrick00

Call me (Patrick Robotham) at 0425 733 371

2AlexanderRM
I don't think that name is very descriptive and is also hard to say. On the other hand I like the initial example use on Wikipedia, regarding surgeons, because it's an apolitical one that nobody actually believes. (or at least it is today. It could be that Artistotle was writing at a time when surgery was very new and not widely accepted, and many people made derogatory comments like calling surgeons butchers. Especially considering that surgery in those days was probably super-dangerous so a lot of people would die on the operating table and the increased survival rates would be hard to see. But for the present day it works great.) On the other hand, the Wikipedia page fails to give any indication of how prevalent the fallacy is, which political examples are probably required for, as Yvain pointed out. But the surgery one might be optimal as a replacement for the MLK example in the first section, pointing out how absurd the fallacy is, before going into political examples to show how common it is.
Patrick10

To give a flattering explanation for such activity (I cringe at the thought of being thought as far right) I can only think of the value placed by this community on tolerance of ideas. As Paul Graham says " If a statement is false, that's the worst thing you can say about it. You don't need to say that it's heretical. And if it isn't false, it shouldn't be suppressed." You could interpret people quoting reactionaries like Moldbug as an attempt to shock people and show how tolerant they are by seriously entertaining the ideas. The closest analogue... (read more)

Patrick40

Advertisements can offer useful things. The free CDs given out by AOL can be erased and used to store data. Less Wrong is not a place to get "generous invitations", it's a place to read information and arguments to do with rationality. An invitation to a black tie dinner is a thoughtful gesture, but asking "What the heck is this doing on Less Wrong"? is an appropriate response to such a gesture.

5othercriteria
I don't think this is true. It's cheaper and more reliable to stamp a few million CD-ROMs from a master than it is to get each of them spinning, fire a laser at them, and then make them stop spinning.
Patrick10

I take your point re: length vs speed. The theorem that I think justifies calling Kolmogorov Complexity objective is this:

"If K1 and K2 are the complexity functions relative to description languages L1 and L2, then there is a constant c (which depends only on the languages L1 and L2) such that |K1(s) - K2(s)| <= c for all strings s."

(To see why this is true, note that you can write a compiler for L2 in L1 and vice versa)

I don't see why code modelling symmetric laws should be longer than code modelling asymmetric laws (I'd expect the reverse; ... (read more)

Patrick40

All universal Turing machines can simulate each other with logarithmic slowdown. Saying that the parameter means that complexity "subjective" is like saying the time complexity of Quicksort is "subjective" because the algorithm doesn't specify which programming language to implement it in.

Patrick150

I'll be providing support in ##patrickclass on freenode.

Patrick00

Which notes of Orwell's are you referring to? Orwell has seen tyranny and cruelty since boarding school. I really can't see him succumbing to wistful nostalgia.

2Multiheaded
Notes on the Way That's for a start. I already linked to that essay in the quotes thread. Also, one more in the same vein. My Country Right or Left: There's other such bits of left-conservative, anti-pragmatist sentiment sprinkled throughout his essays. Hell, it's not a stretch to call him a National Socialist. I suggest that you take a fresh look, without the conventional view of Orwell - a petit-bourgeois view, I'd say - coloring your perception. Also! Oh, but he did. Read Coming Up for Air.
Patrick40

It doesn't matter whether a cat is white or black, as long as it catches mice.

-- Deng Xioaping

2RobinZ
Duplicate, but I like your translation better.
Patrick130

Ninety per cent of most magic merely consists of knowing one extra fact.

Terry Pratchett

Patrick110

The problem isn't really lacking citations (after all, Yudkowsky's posts generally don't have many citations). The problem is saying "The evidence for X is overwhelming", while failing to provide any evidence of X. It's effectively saying "take my word for it".

6Kevin
I use the word "overwhelming" exactly once, on barefoot running. I realize now that I meant to link to the relevant Wikipedia article, which provides the overwhelming evidence. Updated the post.
Patrick20

Voted up for the maths and clear exposition.

Patrick80

Almost anything can be attacked as a failure, but almost anything can be defended as not a significant failure. Politicians do not appreciate the significance of 'significant'.

-- Sir Humphrey Appleby

Patrick-10

(Great delicacy and tact are needed in presenting this idea, if the aim is, as it should be, to bewilder and frighted the opponent. ...)

-- Carl Linderholm, Mathematics Made Difficult

Let me explain why it's not easy to see that 5+4 is not 6.

Earlier, the numbers were defined as

2 = 1+1

3 = 1+2

4 = 1+3

5 = 1+4

6 = 1+5

7 = 1+6

8 = 1+7

9 = 1+8.

Where + is associative.

Consider a "clock" with 3 numbers, 1, 2, 3. x+y means "Start at x and advance y hours".
3

2 -> 1

Then 1+1 = 2 and 2+1 = 3, as per our definitions. Also, 3+1 = 1 (since if yo... (read more)

0lessdazed
So because the numbers were defined with eight examples, no example explicitly showing associativity or commutivity, it's hard to see why there's no license to arbitrarily choose a modulus for each number? Or perhaps we only feel like we can do that if that would let us make two sides of an equation equal? As if the implicit rule connoted by the examples was "if two sides of an equation can be interpreted as "equal", one must declare them "equal", where "equal" is defined as amounting to the same, whatever modular operations must be done to make it so? So the definitions are incomplete without an example of something that does not equal something else?
Patrick110

With a few brackets it is easy enough to see that 5 + 4 is 9. What is not easy to see is that 5 + 4 is not 6.

Carl Linderholm, Mathematics Made Difficult.

3lessdazed
I do not understand.
Patrick40

These are the languages I know. While Clojure is interesting, I haven't had the chance to learn it, and I would feel guilty offering tutoring services in a language I don't actually know how to program in.

That said, if you want to learn Clojure and take advantage of my tutoring services, the closest equivalent is scheme.

Patrick10

It has the advantage of being more well defined though ;)

Patrick20

Leonard, if you were about to burn or drown or starve I would panic. It would be the least I could do. That's what's happening to people now, and I don't think my duty to panic disappears just because they're not in the room!

-- Raymond Terrific

6MixedNuts
-- Cliff Pervocracy
Patrick60

On some other subjects people do wish to be deceived. They dislike the operation of correcting the hypothetical data which they have taken as basis. Therefore, when they begin to see looming ahead some such ridiculous result as 2 + 3 = 7, they shrink into themselves and try to find some process of twisting the logic, and tinkering the equation, which will make the answer come out a truism instead of an absurdity; and then they say, “Our hypothetical premiss is most likely true because the conclusion to which it brings us is obviously and indisputably true

... (read more)
Patrick50

I believe that no discovery of fact, however trivial, can be wholly useless to the race, and that no trumpeting of falsehood, however virtuous in intent, can be anything but vicious.

-- HL Mencken

7Oscar_Cunningham
This is quoted already on this page albeit with "no matter" substituted for "however".
0Normal_Anomaly
I disagree, especially with the second part. For a trivial example, take the traditional refutation of Kantianism: You are hiding Jews in your house during WWII. A Nazi shows up and asks if you are hiding any Jews.
Patrick50

P(A) = 2^-K(A).

As for ~A, see: http://lesswrong.com/lw/vs/selling_nonapples/ (The negation of a complex proposition is much vaguer, and hence more probable (and useless))

Patrick00

The number of possible probability distributions is far larger than the two induced by the belief that P, and the belief that ~P.

-1Zed
If at this point you don't agree that the probability is 0.5 I'd like to hear your number.
Patrick00

I'm not sure why you'd assume that the MML of a random proposition is only one bit...

3Zed
A complex proposition P (long MML) can have a complex negation (also with long MML) and you'd have no reason to assume you'd be presented with P instead of non-P. The positive proposition P is unlikely if its MML is long, but the proposition non-P, despite its long MML is then likely to be true. If you have no reason to believe you're more likely to be presented with P than with non-P, then my understanding is that they cancel each other out. But now I'm not so sure anymore. edit: I'm now pretty sure again my initial understanding was correct and that the counterarguments are merely cached thoughts.
Patrick10

Three more words then, reductio ad absurdum.

0falenas108
Ok, fair.
Patrick50

"Bayesian Bob: ... I meant that in a vacuum we should believe it with 50% certainty..."

No we shouldn't: http://lesswrong.com/lw/jp/occams_razor/

As for proving a negative, I've got two words: Modus Tollens.

Bob does need to go back to math class! ;)

4Zed
You're right, I should have said "proving non-existence". As for the Occam razor (and any formalizations thereof) it's still 50% for an arbitrary proposition P. You need evidence (for instance in terms of the complexity of the proposition itself) in order to lower the probability of the proposition. Otherwise I can just present you with two propositions P and Q, where Q happens to be non-P and you'll assign the same sub-50% probabilities to P and Q, even though exactly one of them is guaranteed to be true. I think that would make you exploitable.
1falenas108
Modus Tollens is: If P, then Q. Not Q. Therefore, not P But you can't prove not Q in the first place.
Patrick200

If things are nice there is probably a good reason why they are nice: and if you do not know at least one reason for this good fortune, then you still have work to do.

Richard Askey

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