All of PaulWright's Comments + Replies

I assume you mean “fee paying.”

Argh, I mistyped "fee" as "free". Fixed.

So “public school” (UK) = “private school” (USA)?

Yes, though I'm not sure whether the USA has the similar phenomenon of a few private schools providing so much of the ruling establishment figures or whether there's a similar "private school bluffer" / Upper Class Twit archetype there.

2[anonymous]
Not as strong, but it exists. It's mostly through the alumni networks of the Ivy League schools. See, for example: George W. Bush. A couple of fancy private schools feed into Ivy League schools, whose alumni networks (and elite fraternities) feed into prestigious law schools, business schools, or certain industries like investment banking and politics.

A "school" in Britain provides primary or secondary education (tertiary is "a university", you wouldn't find a UK person saying "Cambridge is a good school"). A "public school" in Britain is a secondary school where the parents pay a fee for their kids to attend. Confusingly, if you also describe it as a private school, people will know what you mean. ISTR the name arises because in the Olden Days if you were properly posh you'd have a personal tutor, so shared (but fee paying) schools were "public&quo... (read more)

6lincolnquirk
Ok, so I guess Americans might use “prep school” here.
4[anonymous]
I assume you mean “fee paying.” So “public school” (UK) = “private school” (USA)? Gotcha. You can see why it was confusing for me—I read it with the exact opposite meaning. I think Cummings thinks Boris works for him, to be honest.

Note that there's some discussion on just what Eliezer means by "logic all the way down" over on Rationally Speaking: http://rationallyspeaking.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/lesswrong-on-morality-and-logic.html . Seeing as much of this is me and Angra Maiynu arguing that Massimo Pigliucci hasn't understood what Eliezer means, it might be useful for Eliezer to confirm what he does mean.

You mention naturalism as a "bad habit" for using science to understand the world?

No, he doesn't (which is why I downvoted this comment, BTW). Luke says that even naturalistic philosophers exhibit these bad habits. He does not say that naturalism is a bad habit, or that it's a bad habit because it uses science to understand the world.

-3myron_tho
Not quite: "Teach" implies that engaging one's self with "too much" mainstream philosophy will cause bad habits to arise (and make one unable to do 'real work', whatever that might be). Unexamined presuppositions make a wonderful basis for discourse.

The latest Rationally Speaking post looks relevant: Ian Pollock describes aspects of Eliezer's view as "minimalism" with a link to that same SEP article. He also mentions Simon Blackburn's book, where Blackburn describes minimalists or quietists as making the same point Eliezer makes about collapsing "X is true" to "X" and a similar point about the usefulness of the term "truth" as a generalisation (though it seems that minimalists would say that this is only a linguistic convenience, whereas Eliezer seems to have a... (read more)

Perhaps I should amend that to "don't be obviously indiscriminate in a sleazy way". The bad thing isn't finding lots of people attractive, it's apparently caring nothing for them as a person (which is about having had no conversational interction with them before asking them out, some small amount of buildup is necessary, though as siduri says, if you're a decent chap, it's probably less than you think) or alternatively appearing desperate (which is about demeanor, I think). Things I've heard remarked upon have been bemusement at dinner invites f... (read more)

Even better than book groups, though, are dance classes.

Amen to that. I'd add a slight caution that chemistry generated on the dancefloor can sometimes just be about the dancing, and telling when it is more than that is possibly an advanced skill. So, as this Mefi comment says, don't push your luck on the dancefloor itself.

Workaround: ask after the class or when you're standing around chatting (assuming you don't dance all the time). Don't be the guy who asks everyone in turn: the women talk to each other :-) EDIT: I elaborate on what I mean by this below.... (read more)

0MBlume
This has mostly frightened me off so far. I've been tentatively pushing at it the last couple weeks.

I think I'm free. The same time the following weekend is bad for me, but Sunday 20th is OK.

which I'm pretty sure I first found here, HT

Glad you liked it.

Suber seems to concentrate on tactics where one person avoids responding to the argument by making some statement about the arguer ("you're saying that because of your hopeless confirmation bias!") That sort of rudeness is a potential problem if someone has a belief which includes explanations of why other people don't believe it. I'm not sure what to do to about that, since I certainly have such beliefs. As far as I can make out, if I want to avoid being rude, I end up having to resp... (read more)

4Tyrrell_McAllister
The rudeness that Eliezer is talking about seems different from the rudeness that Suber is talking about. What Eliezer is talking about might be grouped under the heading "Failure to keep score." The interlocutor refuses to acknowledge that a point has been undermined. Maybe the interlocutor pretends that the point was never made. Or maybe the interlocutor returns to the point as though it had never been undermined. What Suber is talking about is the kind of rudeness where you refuse to play the game altogether. In reply to arguments, you don't even pretend to address them. Instead, you say, "According to my position, I don't even need to address your arguments on their merits."

So, the context is whether it's ethical to let people believe they've understood how the tricks work when their understanding is that it's done with psychic powers or with NLP.

DERREN: Well, I not a big a fan of it, but I've done it and think in some contexts there's some use--that's a whole other conversation--but it's a dirty word as far as I'm concerned. If somebody came up to me and said, "Look, I really liked your show, and I'm going to go to an NLP course," which I've had happen, I would say to them, "Well, if you want to do that, do

... (read more)
0pjeby
As I pointed out above, at least one effect of his is a straight-up use of two pure textbook NLP techniques: submodality elicitation plus anchoring. Thus in at least one case, "part of what I do" refers to "the entire mechanic of the effect", while perhaps leaving out things like: * showmanship * carefully picking his subject * repeating attempts until he gets a subject that responds well enough to keep the footage * not showing the part where he puts color-vision beliefs back to normal However, the actual application and result of what's shown is precisely what you'd expect from a reasonably responsive subject, in response to the demonstrated NLP procedures. On a semi-unrelated note, if someone you don't trust to muck around with your head ever asks you the questions that Brown asks at the beginning of that video -- i.e. asking you about something that you believe and something that you don't believe -- you would probably be best off answering "no, thanks". AFAIK, even the slimiest, mind-hackiest of NLP and hypnosis-trained PUA teachers don't suggest doing something as unethical as what Brown actually did in that video would've been, if it were done to a non-consenting subject.

I admire Derren Brown enormously for his cleverness, but he's not doing NLP (if indeed there's anything to do: an article which addressed the evidence would be good, I think). He just wants you do think he is. The bit at the end of the trick where he gleefully shows you how he did it using NLP to implant words in people's minds is itself misdirection. It's part of his act, as pretending to be psychic would have been back in the days when people kind of believed in that.

Brown: "Years ago the issue was whether or not you told people it was psychic beca... (read more)

2pjeby
Especially since it contradicts what you just said about Brown not doing NLP. From the interview: It struck me that the interviewer was really pressing Brown rather hard to say that things like NLP and hypnosis are shams and false, and Brown was pressing back rather hard with the idea that no, people can actually get some benefits from learning these things, they just won't be able to duplicate all my effects that way. Of course, I've seen Brown do certain things that are pretty much straight-up, textbook NLP or hypnosis with no real embellishing. For example, confusing a woman about what color her car is - a simple submodality anchoring belief-change exercise, straight out of the NLP textbooks, with no alterations that I noticed. And the one where he uses blank pieces of paper to pay for things as if it were money, he uses an NLP language pattern to prime the person at a critical moment with the idea that "it's good; take it". (Although I suppose you could say it's an Ericksonian hypnosis pattern; the NLP inventors certainly were among the first to document it, however.) That having been said, quite a few things he does are not NLP at all, or at least not any cataloged NLP technique I know of. In neither of the two cases that I just mention, did Brown draw any attention to the NLP aspect of the effects, either verbally or nonverbally. He provided no explanation at all for either, actually. (Maybe he only does it with techniques that aren't real NLP?) Anyway, I had to very carefully view the paying-with-paper footage several times in order to notice what he was doing, as he was telling different stories each time in which to embed the "it's good, take it" message, which was always timed to occur just as he was handing them the "money". (Of course, I also respect him for including outtake footage in the episode of him trying the trick on a suspicious hotdog vendor (whose English wasn't so good) and having it fail miserably. I'm glad he's not representing these
1eirenicon
Well, about fourteen lines later he starts talking about NLP again and says "I've taken NLP courses and learned some NLP" and "It's part of what I do." I do think it's all part of his act when he lets you in on the NLP "secret", but I think it's also part of the magic that he puts it out in plain view so that people say "ah, that's misdirection" and discard it. I think magicians have been using NLP much longer than NLP has been an acronym, and I think Brown uses it, along with a host of other methods. However, I think it is often mistaken for more fundamental (and tried & true) psychological techniques like priming. Thanks for the link.

Me too! (But gjm knew that).

1gjm
I'm mildly surprised that so far there's only the two of us.

Eliezer Yudkowsky can isolate magnetic monopoles

Nah, that's Dave Green. You'd better hope Dr Green doesn't find out...

I feel like I might have seen this game on Overcoming Bias before, but I can't find it there

The game is familiar to me from Yes, Minister, a TV programme which was an expert satire on British politics. Bernard Woolley, a senior civil servant, would refer to these as "irregular verbs". From the quotes page at IMDB: "That's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? I give confidential security briefings. You leak. He has been charged under section 2a of the Official Secrets Act. "

More irregular verbs here.

5mantis
The first one of these I can remember reading was "I'm erotically open-minded; you're kind of kinky; he's a disgusting pervert."

You've taken Yvain's example of a bad argument to use as if it were his argument, and then called it wrong headed. You're agreeing with Yvain. There is a difference between using an argument and quoting it.

My empathies: that happened to me about 6 years ago (though thankfully without as much visible vacillation).

My sister, who had some Cognitive Behaviour Therapy training, reminded me that relationships are forming and breaking all the time, and given I wasn't unattractive and hadn't retreated into monastic seclusion, it wasn't rational to think I'd be alone for the rest of my life (she turned out to be right). That was helpful at the times when my feelings hadn't completely got the better of me. I suppose we can be haunted by stuff that is real.

4MBlume
Thank you. I've been struggling with that haunting myself. I think part of the problem is that when you're in a relationship long enough, you wind up with a term in your utility function for that person. And even if you know you could wind up with someone objectively better, better suited, the outcome doesn't seem like good news to your mind. A job for self-modification, I suppose, even if it's the slow, manual kind. Very glad to hear she was right =)