All of PeterS's Comments + Replies

PeterS00

Can the question given in this post be formulated precisely?

If so, nix everything but the precise description of the answer-box's behavior and ask for a program which simulates such a device.

If not, ... then I choose to interpret it in such a way that I can ask for the above anyway.

PeterS70

The OP framed the scenario in terms of directing the AI to design a FAI, but the technique is more general. It's possibly safe for all problems with a verifiable solution.

PeterS60

Good idea. But this effectively makes failing to "go quietly" punishable by death.

5Schlega
Replace execution with Somnium. That way, people who prefer death over imprisonment can be revived if they are later exonerated.
PeterS50

In some attacks it's okay to hold of on proposing solutions. In others, it's not. Presumably, there actually are some bad people in Azkaban, and not just, say, people responsible for an accidental death. Before Harry destroys the prison, he needs to think carefully about what is to become of these people.

What's required of a maximum security wizard prison? You clearly need to subdue any magical powers which would allow the prisoners to revolt or escape. At a minimum then, confiscate wands and put up anti-Disapparition charms. This might not be enough, as i... (read more)

2alethiophile
I should think that wandless magic, while possible, is at least far less powerful than wanded; presumably with that advantage, as well as anti-Disapparition jinxes, and perhaps other pre-cast defensive spells, a competent Auror should be able to hold and defeat any wizard. It might well be possible, for instance, to have an ongoing magic-triggered overpowered Somnium enchantment cast on the prison, that ignores the wands of specifically keyed-in wizards. Or something.
6MoreOn
What's the purpose of imprisonment in the first place? 1. To guard the society from criminals. 2. To punish the criminals (revenge on the behalf of the relatives/victims). 3. To redeem the criminals (so that they don't commit another crime). The way Harry's been acting, seems like he'd strongly prioritize #3 over the other two. And considering that he didn't hold too much of a grudge against Draco for gom jabar'ing him, and believed that Bellatrix can be turned back into an okay human being, it seems like he would want to devise some sort of a method to redeem criminals. And thanks, TobyBartels, for noticing my circular vocabulary issue.
0Desrtopa
I don't see putting the wizards to sleep for the duration of their sentence as at all inhumane, just very ineffective punishment. It shouldn't be necessary to suppress magical ability beyond taking away prisoners wands as long as there are magical defenses in place that are beyond their ability to break. I don't think transfiguring prisoners into muggles is possible. You might be able to transfigure them into animals (using non-free transfiguration; canon suggests this is possible although in MoR it might not be) and put them in containers that would be beyond the extent of wandless magic to escape from, but that would also be rather inhumane, and probably unnecessary.
FAWS110

Allow the worst prisoners to choose between Askaban, taking an unbreakable vow not to escape the normal prison and execution.

PeterS00

Transitivity? In The Lifespan Dilemma, Eliezer presents a sequence (L_n) in which we are convinced L_n { L_(n+1) throughout, but for which we'd prefer even L_0 to L_n for some large but finite n.

0Vaniver
I'm not convinced L_n { L_(n+1), but I don't seem to have his fixation with really big numbers.
PeterS50

Chapters 55-58 seemed to me to contained very little content. At least not much that was fun/interesting. What content they had was superfluous and repetitive. The only real obstacle for Harry were the Dementors*, and he seemed to defeat them trivially. At the end of Ch. 54, suspense was high, but (at least from my perspective) it really fizzled out.

PeterS20

They're finally out of there. Let us never speak of these chapters again!

2Carinthium
The reason being?
PeterS00

Strong recursion: Software designs new software to design newer software; money begets money begets more money. Think of the foom as compound interest on intelligence.

Suppose A designs B, which then designs C. Why does it follow that C is more capable than B (logically, disregarding any hardware advances made between B and C)? Alternatively, why couldn't A have designed C initially?

0shokwave
As per khafra's post, though I would add that it looks likely: after all, that we as humans are capable of any kind of AI at all is proof that designing intelligent agents is the work of intelligent agents. It would be surprising if there was some hard cap on how intelligent an agent you can make - like if it topped out at exactly your level or below.
3khafra
It does not necessarily follow; but the FOOM contention is that once A can design a B more capable than itself, B's increased capability will include the capability to design C, which would have been impossible for A. C can then design D, which would have been impossible for B and even more impossible for A. Currently, each round of technology aids in developing the next, but the feedback isn't quite this strong.
PeterS10

Oh... I in no way endorse the above argument! Pierre-Simon Laplace's, a century or so after Newton, gave a naturalistic model of how the Solar System could have developed. "Rationality quotes" is not only about sharing words of wisdom, but also words of folly.

0wedrifid
:) I certainly wasn't intending to accuse you.
1wedrifid
"The chance that the numberplate of my first car was EIT411 is one in a whole lot. Wow! It happened! There must be a God!" (crudely speaking.) This seems to be relevant to, for example, yabbering on about the exact speeds of Saturn et. al. The Saturns that were going the wrong speed all fell in to the sun (or cleared off into space.)
PeterS70

Isaac Newton's argument for intelligent design:

Were all the planets as swift as Mercury or as slow as Saturn or his satellites; or were the several velocities otherwise much greater or less than they are (as they might have been had they arose from any other cause than their gravities); or had the distances from the centers about which they move been greater or less than they are (as they might have been had they arose from any other cause than their gravities); or had the quantity of matter in the sun or in Saturn, Jupiter, and the earth (and by consequ

... (read more)
0wedrifid
Elements of this argument make an error related to numberplates. I'm surprised this was received so (+4) positively.
7Tyrrell_McAllister
Here's another Newton ID quote. This one complements PeterS's because the true naturalistic explanation requires physics that was not implicit in Newton's mechanics. —Isaac Newton, Four Letters From Sir Isaac Newton To Doctor Bentley Containing Some Arguments In Proof Of A Deity.
PeterS20

Why does Quirrell want Harry exposed to Dementors?

At the risk of building this theory on top of another unconfirmed theory... It's been speculated that Quirrell himself is Demented. He doesn't appear so when Voldemort is telepathically controlling him, but when Voldy takes a cigarette break or whatever Quirrell enters zombie mode. Quirrell is just kind of an empty body, zombie-like unless Voldemort is logged in.

Maybe Voldemort wants to control Harry's body in a similar fashion. What the difference is between dementing and then telepathically inhabiting, versus simply using the Imperius Curse... /shrug.

PeterS280

Rule I

We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances.

To this purpose the philosophers say that Nature does nothing in vain, and more is in vain when less will serve; for Nature is pleased with simplicity, and affects not the pomp of superfluous causes.

Rule II

Therefore to the same natural effects we must, as far as possible, assign the same causes.

As to respiration in a man and in a beast; the descent of stones in Europe and in America; the light of our culinary fire and of t

... (read more)
PeterS00

Set Theory and the Continuum Hypothesis by Paul Cohen is good, and starts from a pretty low level if I recall, but you'll want experience in formal reasoning before reading through it. Do you have any experience with formal math?

PeterS20

As Poincaré said, "Every definition implies an axiom, since it asserts the existence of the object defined." You can call a value a "single criterion that doesn't tolerate exceptions and status quo assumptions" -- but it's not clear to me that I even have values, in that sense.

Of course, I will believe in the invisible, provided that it is implied. But why is it, in this case?

You also speak of the irrelevance (in this context) of the fact that these values might not even be feasibly computable. Or, even if we can identify them, there ma... (read more)

PeterS90

Wow... I had imagined that Moody lost his eye in a fight or something -- but it would be way more awesome if he cut it out intentionally, to replace it with an eye more suited for the hunt.

0gwillen
Calls to mind: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_Vecna
4jaimeastorga2000
The idea of Moody as a voluntarily enhanced magical cyborg is awesome indeed. In fact, the entire notion of human enhancement using magic would be an interesting theme to explore. It's already been done to some degree with the idea of defeating death and Harry making a mental note to research mind-altering spells in chapter 12 (intelligence explosion?), but things like Moody's eye and Wormtail's hand (which was strong enough to crush stones) show that there are also ways for Wizards to improve their abilities by replacing body parts with magical counterparts. Seeing what the wizarding world and/or Harry think of such ideas would be pretty interesting.
1gwern
And very Odin-esque.
PeterS-10

Chapter 51 (emphasis added):

As Professor Quirrell stood up from where he'd bent over by the pouch, and put away his wand, his wand happened to point in Harry's direction, and there was a brief crawling sensation on Harry's chest near where the Time-Turner lay, like something creepy had passed very close by without touching him.

Chapter 54:

"Sorry," whispered the eleven-year-old boy, "here," and he held out the wand toward Bahry.

Bahry barely stopped himself from snarling at the traumatized boy who'd just saved his life. Instead he ov

... (read more)
5pengvado
That's the telekinesis that allowed Harry to activate the time-turner. If Harry's hypothesis about the sense of doom being magical disharmony is correct, then the creepiness would just be from getting close to one of Quirrell's spells. And the subterfuge with the wand direction isn't intended to fool Harry (who knew that Quirrell planned to cast telekinesis), but rather is Quirrell's distrust of the privacy wards.
PeterS40

Moody's eye can see through the Invisibility Cloak.

One of the systematic changes in MoR is that things which are sufficiently powerful are artifacts, and things which are artifacts are sufficiently powerful: The Marauder's Map was originally devised by Slytherin as part of the creation of Hogwarts and only slightly twisted by the Marauders (Ch. 25), and the Cloak of Invisibility is now in a class of its own compared to standard invisibility cloaks or Disillusionment (Ch. 54).

Rowling, of course, wrote that thing with Moody's eye before she decided the Cloak of Invisibility was a major artifact. So if Mood... (read more)

PeterS00

Hmm.. it seems clear that the "sense of doom" is important. Possibly even an indicator that one is being imperius'd -- if these theories are correct.

PeterS40

Under a certain reading Quirrell actually did get him to stop.

"My lord! You must stop it!" ... "Please, my Lord!"

The words went unheard.

They were far from him, the Dementors in their pit, but Harry knew that they could be destroyed even at this distance if the light blazed bright enough, he knew that Death itself could not face him if he stopped holding back, so he unsealed all the gates inside him and sank the wells of his spell into all the deepest parts of his spirit, all his mind and all his will, and gave over absolutely everythi

... (read more)
4David_Allen
Probably, but EY is a tricky writer and can make me second guess everything. It appears that the phrase "The sudden sense of doom clashed with Harry's steel determination", tells us what happened. The Quirrell doom field brought Harry to his senses. In that context "WRONG DON'T" appears to be Harry's awakened response to what he is doing. Nothing seems to imply that Harry's will is not his own. However, the sense of doom suggests a connection between Harry and Quirrell. Based on canon this suggests Q=V, but I suppose it might also suggest that Quirrell has been Voldemort. The connection with Harry could be residual. That special connection could be the source of "WRONG DON'T". It implies that Quirrell has a subtle route to Harry's mind that does not require the Imperius curse and that gets around Harry's Occlumency. In canon Harry could sense Voldemort's mood and occasionally see through his eyes. So perhaps Quirrell is reading Harry's mind and carefully manipulating him through the scar connection. This would help to explain Quirrell's ability to make deductions from insufficient evidence. Chapter 49, Prior Information:
PeterS-20

The business with Snake-Quirrell whispering instructions to Harry might suggest the Imperius Curse. In Rowling's book #4, Moody casts the curse on students and that's just what it's like -- verbal commands that are followed without question (unless you're trained in resisting the curse). Bellatrix doesn't seem to notice that Harrymort is talking to his snake. Perhaps Voldemort was known to do this all the time, but it could be because the instructions were being issued directly to Harry's brain.

But the fact that they can't cast magic on each other is a big obstacle for this theory. Of course, a key point in these chapters is that it's possible to control somebody without ever Imperiusing them.

7David_Allen
When Harry powered up his Patronus, Quirrell was not able to get him to stop verbally. This suggests that Harry is not Imperiused.
PeterS270

I think there's two things going on here. The first is that Harry is psychologically in fantasy-mode during these chapters, and the second is Harry's self-esteem issues regarding his own intelligence.

"You are about to invite me to join a secret organization full of interesting people like yourself," said Harry, "one of whose goals is to reform or overthrow the government of magical Britain, and yes, I'm in."

Fantasy-mode: Harry is being recruited by a secret group of highly interesting rebels. They fight against the stupid, evil, cor... (read more)

9TheOtherDave
Yes. Which also makes me remember the titles of these chapters. I originally thought the title was suggesting that we were going to explore the underlying motives of the Aurors/Dementors/prisoners... but the SPE has very little to do with prisons, really, and a lot to do with the ways in which people's thinking and behavior gets distorted by the roles they adopt. Much as Harry, as you point out, is distorting his own thinking by choosing the role of Noble Warrior in an Epic Fantasy.
PeterS20

/shrug if so then there goes that theory. I had thought Parseltongue was just rare. Didn't realize you needed to be one of Slytherin's heirs (or get in through a loophole like HP).

PeterS00

In canon you can look at it indirectly (e.g. through a camera lens, or a reflection). You get injured, but not dead. Maybe if you look at it through your Snake Animagus eyes, you'll be okay.

It seems to be required that the Heir be a Parseltongue. It's not a stretch to require that the Heir also be a Snake Animagus -- after all, there are many more people who can speak snake than become snake. In canon, Harry wasn't the Heir but could still access the chamber -- apparently any Parseltongue could have. In MoR, that would mean any Parseltongue could have acce... (read more)

3alethiophile
I read that quote as saying that snake Animagi were more common than Parselmouths, because snake Animagus could be learned, but Parseltongue has to be transmitted directly or indirectly through Slytherin's line (directly, by genetics a la V, or indirectly, by bit-of-soul transfer a la HP. Though Rowling never says whether Harry lost his Parseltongue after the bit of V's soul in his died in DH.)
PeterS290

That emoticon isn't fooling anyone.

PeterS20

How many, over the decades, have fallen under "likely to succeed"? e.g. according to scientists/"experts", investors, project leaders, etc. Whose estimate gets used, anyway?

1wedrifid
None. Whoever is making the decision. That's how decisions work. Said person would use whatever information is relevant to them. They will then decide whether they need to take action to prevent the destruction of all things good and light or whether they will take action to prevent someone who they believe to be intending to kill due to paranoia.
PeterS40

True, I didn't look at it that way. It seems more likely that that's correct -- "Why those exact five?" -- but why would Quirrell find it so amusing?

edit: Maybe Voldemort has already hidden his Horcruxes in just those manners -- we already suspect that he launched one into space. In that case the riddle may be -- given that Harry and Voldemort think in precisely the same way, how can Voldemort think of a hiding place that Harry wouldn't think of himself?

edit2: It's out of character for them to come naturally to Harry, but not to Voldemort. Voldem... (read more)

PeterS30

Anyone have any guesses as to what Quirrell's game is?

Quirrell is operating on a level that I surely don't understand. The only theory I can think of that's neither preposterous nor disappointing is that Quirrell is protecting Horcrux!Harry.

In light of the recent exchange where Quirrell asks Harry how he would hide something:

Tell me, Mr. Potter, if you wanted to lose something where no one would ever find it again, where would you put it?"

... "Well," said Harry, "besides trying to get it into the molten core of the planet, you could b

... (read more)
mkehrt100

Or ideally you would launch it into space, with a cloak against detection, and a randomly fluctuating acceleration factor that would take it out of the Solar System.

Is this a MoR explanation for the Pioneer anomaly? Because that would be awesome.

Also, I assumed Voldemort was talking about the classical elements, too, and was amused that Harry, a scientist, had come up with those at random.

5whpearson
Not been reading the series recently... but I noticed that these are classical elements Roughly fire, earth, sea, air and void. Which fits the japanese element system. Unsure of the meaning though. Edit: I've recently learnt that Voldemort real name was Tom Riddle, did he like riddles in canon? It could just be Voldy checking to see how strong his horcrux's influence was on Harry?
8orthonormal
Naw, the "interesting pattern" is the contrived "fire, earth, water, air, void" pattern to the suggestions. It seems rather out of character for that meme to slip into MoR Harry's subconscious, though.
PeterS40

I drew the analogy that it's like the term "deadly weapon". Fists can be deadly, but they are not called deadly weapons. Hitting someone in the head with your fist is not guaranteed to kill them. Likewise you can drop a shipping container on someone -- and I'm sure this would earn you a life sentence -- but Winguardium Leviosa is not itself a deadly (Unforgivable) spell, as an arbitrary cast of the spell is not guaranteed to kill.

It's still a bit arbitrary. To my knowledge, using a love potion is not Unforgivable -- though it's clearly magical coercion and serves only such a purpose as that.

PeterS00

I agree that those rates are hard to determine. I am also weary of "AI FOOM is a certainty" type statements, and appeals to the nebulous "powers that all computers inherently have".

PeterS10

Your last point was persuasive... though I still have some uneasiness about accepting that k pulls of the trigger, for arbitrary k, still gives the player nothing.

Would it be within the first AGI's capabilities to immediately effect my destruction before I am able to update on its existence -- provided that (a) it is developed by the private sector and not e.g. some special access DoD program, and (b) ETAs up to "sometime this century" are accurate? I think not, though I admit to being fairly uncertain.

I acknowledge that this line of reasoning pr... (read more)

0RHollerith
I humbly suggest that the answer to your question would not shed any particular light on what we have been talking about because even if we would certainly have noticed the birth of the AGI, there's a selection effect if it would have killed us before we got around to having this conversation (i.e. if it would have killed us by now). The AGI's causing our deaths is not the only thing that would cause a selection effect: the AGI's deleting our memories of the existence of the AGI would also do it. But the AGI's causing our deaths is the mostly likely selection-effecting mechanism. A nice summary of my position is that when we try to estimate the safety of AGI research done in the past, the fact that P(we would have noticed our doom by now|the research killed us or will kill us) is high does not support the safety of the research as much as one might naively think. For us to use that fact the way we use most facts, not only must we notice our doom, but also we must survive long enough to have this conversation. Actually, we can generalize that last sentence: for a group of people correctly to use the outcome of past AGI research to help assess the safety of AGI, awareness of both possible outcomes (the good outcome and the bad outcome) of the past research must be able to reach the group and in particular must be able to reach the assessment process. More precisely, if there is a mechanism that is more likely to prevent awareness of one outcome from reaching the assessment process than the other outcome, the process has to adjust for that, and if the very existence of the assessment process completely depends on one outcome, the adjustment completely wipes out the "evidentiary value" of awareness of the outcome. The likelihood ratio gets adjusted to 1. The posterior probability (i.e., the probability after updating on the outcome of the research) that AGI is safe is the same as the prior probability.
0RHollerith
Like I said yesterday I retract my position on the Russian roulette. (Selection effects operate, I still believe, but not to the extent of making past behavior completely useless for predicting future behavior.)
PeterS20

The fact that it hasn't happened yet is not evidence against its happening if you cannot survive its happening. If you cannot survive its happening, then the fact that it has not happened in the last 50 years is not just weaker evidence than it would otherwise be -- it is not evidence at all, and your probability that it will happen now, after 50 years, should be the same as your probability would have been at 0 years.

Do you take the Fermi paradox seriously, or is the probability of your being destroyed by a galactic civilization, assuming that one exis... (read more)

0RHollerith
I intentionally delayed this reply (by > 5 days) to test the hypothesis that slowing down the pace of a conversation on LW will improve it. When we try to estimate the number of technological civilizations that evolved on main-sequence stars in our past light cone, we must not use the presence of at least one tech civ (namely, us) as evidence of the presence of another one (namely, ET) because if that first tech civ had not evolved, we would have no way to observe that outcome (because we would not exist). In other words, we should pretend we know nothing of our own existence or the existence of clades in our ancestral line, in particular, the existence of the eukaryotes and the metazoa, when trying to estimate the number of tech civs in our past light cone. I am not an expert on ETIs, but the following seems (barely) worth mentioning: the fact that prokaryotic life arose so quickly after the formation of the Earth's crust is IMHO significant evidence that there is simple (unicellular or similar) life in other star systems. It is evidence, but less strong than it would be if we fail to account for observational selection effects. Details follow. The fact that there are no obvious signs of an ET tech civ, e.g., alien space ships in the solar system, is commonly believed to the be strongest sign that there were no ET tech civs in our past light cone with the means and desire (specifically, desire on at least part of the civ that was not thwarted by the rest of the civ) to expand outwards into space. Well, it seems to me that there is a good chance that we would not have survived an encounter with the leading wave of such an expansion, and therefore the lack of evidence of such an expansion should not cause us to update our probability of the existence of such an expansion as much as it should have if we certainly could have survived the encounter. Still, the fact that there are no obvious signs (such as alien space ships in the solar system) of ET is the strongest
2RHollerith
If before every time I pull the trigger, I spin the revolver in such a way that it comes to a stop in a position that is completely uncorrelated with its pre-spin position, then yes, IMO the probability is the same as before I had played any rounds at all (namely .5). If an evil demon were to adjust the revolver after I spin it and before I pull the trigger, that is a selection effect. If the demon's adjustments are skillful enough and made for the purpose of deceiving me, my trigger pulls are no longer a random sample from the space of possible outcomes. Probability is not a property of reality but rather a property of an observer. If a particular observer is not robust enough to survive a particular experiment, the observer will not be able to learn from the experiment the same way a more robust observer can. As I play Russian roulette, the P(gun has bullet) assigned by someone watching me at a safe distance can change, but my P(gun has bullet) cannot change because of the law of conservation of expected evidence. In particular, a trigger pull that does not result in a bang does not decrease my probability that the gun contains a bullet because a trigger pull that results in a bang does not increase it (because I do not survive a trigger pull that results in a bang).
4gwern
Examples are great. The examples a person supplies are often more valuable than their general statements. In philosophy, one of the most valuable questions one can ask is 'can you give an example of what you mean by that?'
PeterS00

For one -- it hasn't already happened. And there is no public research suggesting that it is much closer to happening now than it has ever been. The first claims of impending human-level AGI were made ~50 years ago. Much money and research has been exhausted since then, but it hasn't happened yet. AGI researchers have lost a lot of credibility because of this. Basically, extraordinary claims have been made many times. None have panned out to the generality with which they are made.

You yourself just made an extraordinary claim! Do you have a 5 year old at h... (read more)

0jimrandomh
The difficulty of creating an AGI drops slightly every time computational power increases. We know that people greatly underestimated the difficulty of creating AGI in the past, but we don't know how fast the difficulty is decreasing, how difficult it is now, whether it will ever stop decreasing, or where.
1RHollerith
The fact that it hasn't happened yet is not evidence against its happening if you cannot survive its happening. If you cannot survive its happening, then the fact that it has not happened in the last 50 years is not just weaker evidence than it would otherwise be -- it is not evidence at all, and your probability that it will happen now, after 50 years, should be the same as your probability would have been at 0 years. In other words, if the past behavior of a black box is subject to strong-enough observational selection effects, you cannot use its past behavior to predict its future behavior: you have no choice but to open the black box and look inside (less metaphorically, to construct a causal model of the behavior of the box) which you have not done in the coment I am replying to. (Drawing an analogy with protein folding does not count as "looking inside".) Of course, if your probability that the creation of a self-improving AGI will kill all the humans is low enough, then what I just said does not apply. But that is a big if.
PeterS100

Harry learns things that only Dumbledore would have known.

Does he? It certainly seems possible that Harry is just filling in the blanks himself. I just went back and re-read it. Consider:

"Explain," said Harry.
"But you already know," said Dumbledore. . .
...
"But if Voldemort used the Killing Curse," Harry started again, "and nobody died for me this time -- how can I be alive?"
"I think you know," said Dumbledore. "Think back. . ."

The information that Dumbledore actually does provide to Harry i... (read more)

PeterS10

I'm reminded of why I left the discipline - it's a historico-linguistic claptrap.

All I advocated for was the term's speciation - which, I'll add again, is already present in the dictionary as well as in common usage. I reject the notion that, in order to suggest this, I first need to be a philosopher by trade.

PeterS10

Regardless of the terms' usages in academia, there is often a distinction in common speech. I disagree that this distinction is irrelevant. Also, having gotten to know several professional philosophers before leaving the field for mathematics, I know that they are not as confused by this distinction (or the public's employment of it) as you suggest, even if they choose not to draw it themselves.

But it's all moot, as

Professional usage, not common usage, is what matters when we're thinking about issues in an academic field.

implies that any usage of ethic... (read more)

-4Jack
Uh... ethics is the study of the good. Aristotle has arguments which conclude that eudaimonia is the highest good. But that doesn't preclude other investigations into the good life. In any case, I have no problem at all with introducing new questions or inventing distinctions. I have a problem with amateurs working in a field and altering the usage of professionals for no good reason. It is bad form and reflects poorly on us. I really doubt that we need to change our definition of the word ethics to be capable of understanding the distinction you are trying to make. A layman can use whatever words he or she likes. But if you want to study a field use the terms as others in that field use them, unless there is actually a problem with that terminology.
PeterS50

I'm extremely skeptical that meditation or prayer can influence the mind to that extent, but I'm very curious.

I am too. On the other hand, monks have immolated themselves, withstood torture etc., over the ages without appearing to suffer anywhere near on the order of what such an experience seems to entail. This man for instance even maintained the lotus position for the duration of the event, and also allegedly remained silent and motionless as well. Counter-examples exist in which self-immolators either clearly died horribly or immediately sought to extinguish themselves, but still...

1nhamann
This appears to be a video of the incident, and he appears to be entirely silent and motionless. I'd say the grandparent poster's skepticism is pretty much shot here.
PeterS40

I haven't grossly stretched or distorted the everyday usage of these words, so I'm not sure why I deserve to have their dictionary definitions shoved at me (especially since ethics #2 agrees with my usage). In fact I provided examples wherein the use of these words actually differs in common speech. I've tried to convey why I think this subtle difference is interesting. I wouldn't say that I was arguing with the dictionary (although there is a time to do so).

2Jack
As one might expect this issue of the distinction between ethics and morality routinely comes up in undergraduate philosophy courses. I have yet to hear a professor of philosophy endorse any distinction between morality and ethics and they often are perplexed that the general public seems to think there is one. Professional usage, not common usage, is what matters when we're thinking about issues in an academic field.
0timtyler
The dictionary simply doesn't distinguish between these terms on the basis of who they benefit. In fact it defines ethics in terms of morality in most cases.
PeterS00

Wow... hadn't read the original, interesting. Still, that is the Oath as it was 2k years ago, and as such it is no longer part of established medical ethics. I think it's plausible that in fact the abandonment of that section might have been necessary to preserve the profession's legitimacy! As well as nixing the part where the Oath is consecrated by Apollo, etc.

PeterS00

Oh, sorry, I wasn't clear.

Maybe I wasn't either... are we actually disagreeing here? Heh.

it would be ethical (in the sense of being a rule of professional conduct) and unethical (in a different sense of the word 'ethical') at the same time. . . [link to some definitions]

I know the word is used in the sense of definitions 1 and 3. What I'm saying is that I think it's more interesting to forget the moral usage altogether, and just stick with saying that ethics is #2, because when you think about it they are very distinct concepts.

1Blueberry
It's worth teasing out a few different definitions. There are at least four distinct concepts: * Rules of professional conduct, which do not necessarily relate to doing the right thing or anyone's benefit at all * A normative prescription * Rules for the individual's benefit * Rules for the group's benefit
PeterS00

An example of what?

A rule in medical ethics which is not intended to protect/benefit either the practitioner himself or the purpose of his livelihood.

that particular definition just means following established rules of conduct

Doctors established them in order to preserve the legitimacy of their profession. That's my understanding, in any case.

2mattnewport
In some cases it was to enforce a cartel (emphasis mine):
0Blueberry
Oh, sorry, I wasn't clear. I didn't mean that such a rule existed, just that if one did exist, it would be ethical (in the sense of being a rule of professional conduct) and unethical (in a different sense of the word 'ethical') at the same time. Contrast the second definition on this page with the others. Well, many professions have established such rules, and presumably, they did so to make their professions more legitimate, as well as to give their members a guide to behavior their committees considered better.
PeterS00

You can meaningfully say that following the rules of medical ethics is unethical and not to anyone's benefit.

Can you give an example?

0Blueberry
An example of what? My point was that that sentence is not a contradiction, because "ethics" in that particular definition just means following established rules of conduct, which does not necessarily coincide with the individual's benefit or the group's benefit.
PeterS10

ethics is about "what I should do".

It's interesting to distinguish between ethics and morality in this manner, as in ethics is for the individual's benefit as opposed to morality which is for the benefit of the group as a whole. Which is why people speak of "medical ethics" or "journalistic ethics", as opposed to "medical morality" and "journalistic morality". Morality is considered as some kind of constant normative prescription, whereas ethics is sensitive to subjective dispositions and thus can vary between professions, individuals, etc.

-6timtyler
1Blueberry
Actually, that's a different use of the word ethics: the rules of conduct for a group or profession. You can meaningfully say that following the rules of medical ethics is unethical and not to anyone's benefit.
PeterS30

If it were truly repeating, you couldn't. Unless you were a KPAXian and the screenwriters wrote it to be so.

PeterS10

I know. What's your point?

I was presenting the quote along the lines of UDT, and this.

3orthonormal
Fair enough. It just bugs me on a status level to have an idea that was well-stated by famous philosophers quoted from K-PAX instead. I realize I'm being irrational here.
PeterS30

Sufferers must be sustained by a hope so strong that no conflict with reality can smash it - so strong, indeed, that no fulfilment could ever satisfy it...

-Nietzche

4[anonymous]
del
PeterS30

The universe will expand, then it will collapse back on itself, then will expand again. It will repeat this process forever. What you don't you know is that when the universe expands again, everything will be as it is now. Whatever mistakes you make this time around, you will live through on your next pass. Every mistake you make, you will live through again, & again, forever. So my advice to you is to get it right this time around. Because this time is all you have.

-KPAX

(I do not present this as an endorsement of the Big Bounce hypothesis.)

7novalis
How could you distinguish a repeating process consisting of the entire universe, from that process happening only once?
2orthonormal
The idea of the eternal recurrence didn't originate with that movie.
1cupholder
Gerry Rafferty offers an alternative perspective.
PeterS30

I've noticed that too. What's odder is that they seem to come and go. I have no evidence, but I swear that sometimes I'll see a link to google in a comment on one day, and the link rendered as /">google in the same comment on another day, etc. Strange.

PeterS40

How do "we"/they actually know Voldemort even used the Killing Curse that night, as opposed to doing some other thing? ie, how is it known that he is the Boy Who Survived the Killing Curse in the first place?

That's a good point... though if I recall, he is just known as The-Boy-Who-Lived. In canon, it's not revealed until book 4 that he is the only one to have ever survived the killing curse, in particular, and it's Znq-Rlr Zbbql who says this (though, in truth, it was Onegl Pebhpu We.). Onegl Pebhpu is a highly loyal Death Eater who had been ... (read more)

6taw
Wizards are far less numerous than Muggles - in world like that it's easy to be the first at something.
4Psy-Kosh
Oh yeah, forgot that it's not revealed until then. But given that he has the title of "The Boy Who Lived", that suggests that it's known or widely believed in the wizarding world. ie, It's not "They Boy Who Lived Through a Mild Flu", right?
PeterS00

21 chapters later...

Thanks!

Load More