All of phl43's Comments + Replies

phl4310

(also, on a purely selfish note, the contemporary political shitstorm has taken over every other venue I communicate in and I really would rather not see it here)

This is definitely something I can understand.

phl4300

Thanks, I hadn't noticed that there was a wiki.

phl4300

But of course I have done nothing of the sort.

0Lumifer
Banish the thought.
phl4300

Is there a glossary of your jargon somewhere?

1Elo
These things often end up on the lesswrong wiki. It's an ongoing process to write everything up. Often if you ask, or google, or lesswrong search for it, the original post will come up.
phl4320

Engaging in hyperbole instead of rational discussion is a choice.

I don't think the kind of rhetorical hyperbole I'm using in my post, that any normal person can recognize as such, is incompatible with rational discussion. Other than that, what you say is fair enough.

(On another topic, you're using the verb "steelman", which I think you already used before. I had never encountered this word before. I'm guessing that it's local jargon for the opposite of "to strawman", meaning something like "making the position you attack as strong as possible"?)

0ChristianKl
Humans easily think in terms of black and white. It takes effort to think in shades of gray. This kind of hyperbole primes for black/white thinking.
0ChristianKl
Yes. More details are found at http://lesswrong.com/lw/85h/better_disagreement/
0TimS
Since hyperbole is only loosely connected with evaluating evidence, I'm not convinced it is compatible with rational discussion, at least as that term is generally understood in this community.
4Elo
Yes. You have that correct. Just because someone present an argument that may be week via their presentation does not mean the argument definitely does not have a stronger root. You should correct the argument to be stronger, then be able to defeat it anyway (provided you are right about things).
phl4320

I find it funny, by the way, that people here are criticizing me for not giving evidence for a claim that is not only known to be true by almost everyone, but which can be verified in 5 seconds with Google if you have a doubt, while recommending a piece that begins with a very strong and arguably unverifiable claim about the evolutionary origin of the way in which humans talk about politics... (Which is not to say, to be clear, that I disagree with everything Yudkowsky says in that essay.)

0siIver
While I would agree that those kinds of accusations are used unfairly at times, I don't think it's unreasonable to assign Yudkowsky's statements a higher a priori chance of being true.
phl4300

Yes, I read it, there was a link in one of the first replies I got.

2phl43
I find it funny, by the way, that people here are criticizing me for not giving evidence for a claim that is not only known to be true by almost everyone, but which can be verified in 5 seconds with Google if you have a doubt, while recommending a piece that begins with a very strong and arguably unverifiable claim about the evolutionary origin of the way in which humans talk about politics... (Which is not to say, to be clear, that I disagree with everything Yudkowsky says in that essay.)
phl4300

But look, I think we're both wasting our time here, since I've already decided to tone down my language and not to post anything here that is directly related to politics. So I'll just leave it at that, because I really have work to do :-p

phl4320

The issue isn't what you see, the issue is what intelligent people from outside of your echo chamber see.

Okay, let me rephrase what I originally said: it's not incompatible. Do you think it's incompatible? Based on what you say later in your comment, I guess you do. So let me ask you a more general question: do you think there are no claims one can make, such that if someone denies them, one can reasonably conclude that the person denying it is not seriously engaging with one? I'm sure you don't (obvious counterexamples are not hard to come up with), so... (read more)

0phl43
But look, I think we're both wasting our time here, since I've already decided to tone down my language and not to post anything here that is directly related to politics. So I'll just leave it at that, because I really have work to do :-p
phl4300

I don't see how that's incompatible. If I say that Trump often speaks unintelligibly and someone denies it or even claims not to be sure that it's true, provided that person is intelligent and has a decent mastery of the English language, I would not believe they are saying that in good faith. Similarly, when I say that immediately after the election a lot of people were asserting that Trump's victory had caused a substantial increase in the number of hate crimes and someone denies it or claims not to be sure it's true, I think it's perfectly reasonable of... (read more)

1Lumifer
The issue isn't what you see, the issue is what intelligent people from outside of your echo chamber see. Well, let's take me (me! me! :-D). I don't live on Facebook and don't pay much attention to political noise. I have no idea how many people were asserting what kind of things about the number of hate crimes after the election. I also have no reason to just take your word for it. So unless you show some actual evidence, I would be inclined to consider you just another blowhard. The habit of presenting doubtful claims as gospel truth is... widespread on the 'net and while you have full confidence in yourself, I don't. Theory of mind is a pretty useful thing to have. Kids acquire it early :-P
phl4320

I think one can reach a point past which asking for evidence is not a sign of rationality, but rather of pedantry. And I think that asking for evidence in favor of the first claim you mention definitely falls under that description. I didn't provide evidence for that claim, because if someone denies it, I simply don't believe they are saying that in good faith. Of course, you could argue that one could totally deny in good faith what I literally said in the passage you quote, because it's probably not true that almost everyone seemed convinced of the claim... (read more)

0ChristianKl
That a valid opinion but "other people should provide more evidence when they make claims on facebook" in not a good basis for a post on LW when arguing against a political opinion. When addressing bad arguments made on facebook it's your burden to steelman them if you want to have a discussion about them on LW. Engaging in hyperbole instead of rational discussion is a choice. You made it. Hyperbole doesn't help rational thinking about the subject. Removing hyperbole from political discussions on LW is useful. Removing posts that engage in too much of it is useful. If you want to submit your posts to LW, you should expect to have them judged by LW's rhetoric standards. If you want to play with different rhetoric standards there are many fora on the internet who have other standards.
0Lumifer
I thought you said something about attracting intelligent people and not wanting to live in an echo chamber..?
phl4300

This sounds right to me, but I think it mostly applies to discussions that are directly related to politics, whereas my post was primarily about the evidence for a claim that is very popular and only indirectly about politics insofar as this claim has become part of the political debate.

phl4300

But, as I explained in the post I published yesterday about what I would like to do with my blog, I don't want it to become an echo chamber. So I don't just want to increase the number of people, I also want to attract intelligent people. I'll probably just post here only things which deal with evidence and I will tone down the language so as not to turn off people. That being said, I think the argument in my piece on hate crimes was perfectly sound and did provide evidence, notwithstanding the abrasive language.

0NatashaRostova
Yeah that's totally cool. LW style is different though. Not necessarily in a good way, and this difference might even be why it's less popular than other sites these days. But it's different in that LW doesn't, as far as I have observed, want lots of people from different sides. It wants an almost algorithmic approach to reality, where more colorful language is viewed as disrupting the truth by inflaming tribal parts of your brain. Everything you're saying is totally reasonable for someone who doesn't understand the very very specific thing LW is trying to accomplish, and the idiosyncratic rules of engagement for this site. Personally I don't come here as often as other sites in part due to these rules, at times, feeling stringent shrug
phl4300

Actually, you're probably right, I should work on my dissertation.

phl4300

I was just reading my post again, and I guess this passage is also misleading, for exactly the same reason: "if you had calculated a probability that Clinton was going to win in each state using the method I explained above (which you then use to compute a probability that Clinton is going to win the electoral college)".

phl4300

I agree that shev's comment was informative, but he or she also made claims I disagree with. Just because they are only indirectly related to my original question, I don't see why I should not explain why I disagree with the claims in question. If shev doesn't think continuing this conversation is likely to be productive, which I would understand, I imagine he or she will just not stop replying. I know I'm new here, so I'm not used to your customs, but this kind of comment strikes me as weird.

0phl43
Actually, you're probably right, I should work on my dissertation.
phl4300

Note, however, that a took a good resolution.

phl4300

You're clearly not interested in discussion of your condemnation of liberals, and certainly not rational discussion.

Look, if you had just said that my tone makes it unlikely that I'm interested in rational discussion for someone who doesn't know me, I would have conceded that point to you. But it's simply not true that I'm not interested in rational discussion and, crucially, anyone who has read my post can see that it's not true. Indeed, in the note at the end of the post, I say that on the blog where the original version of this post was published, I ... (read more)

0username2
Shev's comment was an informative response to your original question about what Less Wrong is looking for in political discussions, and why LW rejected your earlier post. Shev shared some information on LW's "house style", and on what inferences LWers will tend to draw about people who do not follow that style when writing about politics. Arguing about some of the details in shev's comment is unlikely to accomplish anything valuable.
0phl43
Note, however, that a took a good resolution.
phl4300

Just out of curiosity, why did you think that my post wasn't very relevant or appropriate for Less Wrong? I ask this because, based on what you're saying (again I just arrived here), according to some people here, it's a community for people to rationally discuss topics of interest to the group. I think that, on a common understanding of "rational", my post was rationally discussing the claim that Trump's election caused a substantial increase of the number of hate crimes. After all, I'm using evidence to argue logically that, even though a large... (read more)

0ChristianKl
You claim "almost everyone on Facebook was apparently convinced that buckets of mostly unverified anecdotes, many of which had already been proven to be hoaxes at the time, showed that Trump’s victory had unleashed a wave of hate crimes on the US". That's a central claim for which you don't provide any evidence and you don't steelman the opposing position. You try to speak in tribal terms when there's no necessity for doing so. Unnecessarily abrasive language is not helpful. You say that you haven't found any evidence but don't address the fact that the NYPD claimed it has evidence (http://observer.com/2016/12/nypd-reports-huge-spike-in-hate-crimes-since-donald-trumps-election/). You didn't provide evidence of why the NYPD shouldn't be believed. There's also a valid intererst of LW of not having people who aren't established members post a lot of link about Trump here.
phl4300

I now understand that people on LW don't like to talk about politics here, and like I said I don't really care about this particular incident, nor do I want to argue that you should change the customs around here. But I want to point out that, as far as the claim I was attacking in my post was concerned, I don't think I was assuming anything controversial to show that it was not supported by the evidence.

I'm guessing that's not really what you meant when you said that "[I] wrote in a style that assumed a lot of opinions are held by [my] readers, witho... (read more)

shev140

The assumed opinions I'm talking about are not the substance of your argument; they're things like "I think that most of these reactions are not only stupid, but they also show that American liberals inhabit a parallel universe", and what is implied in the use of phrases like 'completely hysterical', 'ridiculous', 'nonsensical', 'proposterous', 'deranged', 'which any moron could have done', 'basically a religion', 'disconnected from reality', 'save the pillar of their faith', etc. You're clearly not interested in discussion of your condemnation ... (read more)

phl4350

Okay, I honestly don't really care about this particular incident, I just want to know the rules so I don't violate them again. I hope someone in charge can explain to me.

1ChristianKl
There are no fixed rules. There are values and value judgments. Don't try to optimize for rules but for what brings LW forward.
1Elo
We avoid politics for reasons of it being mind killing. We can talk about ideology better because it abstracts away from reality. For a abstract example communism has some good ideas. Concrete examples like, "today Vladimir Putin did this, which shows libertarianism is best" is just going to lead to hell. Ideally we like evidence and concrete reality but around politics and identity it's hard to do without challenging and inciting that others are wrong and need to change. There is a lot of nuance to communication about politics and it leads to a lot of energy being spend to just communicate clearly. It may be your current interest but it's not the interest of many others here. There are plenty of places to talk politics on the internet. Just don't do it here.
phl4300

Also, to be clear, in order to compute his prediction, Wang did assume that non-sampling errors were somewhat correlated, just not nearly enough. As I say in the post, he is a very smart guy, so it's not as if he didn't know the things I explain.

phl4300

To be clear, this is just a random thought I had as I was reading Drescher's book, I'm really not sure there is anything particularly deep or even interesting about it.

phl4300

I agree with you that the probabilities of Clinton winning individual states are correlated, but I'm not sure this makes what I wrote false, although you're probably right that it's a bit misleading. The fact that the probabilities of Clinton winning individual states are correlated is only relevant to calculate the probabilities for each possible outcome in the electoral college. It means that, as I explain later in my post, you have to take into account the fact that non-sampling polling errors in different states are correlated in order to calculate the... (read more)

0phl43
I was just reading my post again, and I guess this passage is also misleading, for exactly the same reason: "if you had calculated a probability that Clinton was going to win in each state using the method I explained above (which you then use to compute a probability that Clinton is going to win the electoral college)".
phl4300

I think models that rely on fundamentals are worthless. I don't have time to explain why in details, though perhaps I will post something on that at some point, but if you want to know the gist of my argument, it's that models of that kind are massively underdetermined by the evidence.

0satt
OK. That's interesting. I disagree but I can see why you'd think that, and in a way I'm kind of sympathetic: I think overfitting definitely happens with some of the poli. sci. models. My go-to model is my go-to exactly because its author really seems to appreciate the overfitting issue, and is very insistent on aiming for proper explanation, not just prediction.
phl4320

Oh I see. I had totally missed the fact that it was a reply to another comment. Apologies to tgb.

1tgb
No problem!
phl4300

I'm not sure you have read my post. Nowhere in it do I say that we should have focused on one poll rather than another. So I'm not sure what relevance your comment has.

1satt
Its relevance is that it rebuts tukabel's suggestion that "the biggest poll" was of "50000" people and showed a "completely different picture" to the mainstream polls indicating a Clinton lead.
phl4340

I'm sure pollsters sometimes "cheat" by constructing biased samples, but this can happen even if you're honest because, as I explain in my post, polling is really difficult to do. To my mind, the problem had more to do with commentators who were making mistaken inferences based on the polls, than with the polls themselves, although evidently some of them got things badly wrong.

phl4310

I just tried to post a link to the one about slavery and capitalism, but it remains a draft and I don't know how to actually publish it. Any idea what's going on?

2The_Jaded_One
I think linkposts + drafts is broken and weird. You have to go to the dropdown and select "post to LW dsicussion" immediately. If you post to drafts once, it can do some odd things.
phl4300

Thanks! That's a good idea, I'll do that shortly, starting with the post about slavery and capitalism.

phl4360

Hi everyone,

I'm a PhD candidate at Cornell, where I work on logic and philosophy of science. I learned about Less Wrong from Slate Star Codex and someone I used to date told me she really liked it. I recently started a blog where I plan to post my thoughts about random topics: http://necpluribusimpar.net. For instance, I wrote a post (http://necpluribusimpar.net/slavery-and-capitalism/) against the widely held but false belief that much of the US wealth derives from slavery and that without slavery the industrial revolution wouldn't have happened, as well ... (read more)

phl4390

Hi everyone,

I'm a PhD candidate at Cornell, where I work on logic and philosophy of science. I learned about Less Wrong from Slate Star Codex and someone I used to date told me she really liked it. I recently started a blog where I plan to post my thoughts about random topics: http://necpluribusimpar.net. For instance, I wrote a post (http://necpluribusimpar.net/slavery-and-capitalism/) against the widely held but false belief that much of the US wealth derives from slavery and that without slavery the industrial revolution wouldn't have happened, as well ... (read more)