All of PyryP's Comments + Replies

PyryP20

...trying to switch to a QM model where location was ill-defined would be a very bad thing for the goal of surviving

This only applies because switching to a QM model is computationally prohibitive. QM is generally held to be more true than CM and even if you're trying to optimize for things in terms of CM you're still better off using the QM model as long as you have a good mapping from your QM model to your CM goals.

Humans do indeed find it difficult to think in terms of QM, but this need not be the case for a future AI with access to a quantum compute... (read more)

PyryP20

Looking at that map of representations of the DNQ agent playing Space Invaders I can't help thinking if it really has learned any concepts that are similar to what a human would learn. Does the DNQ agent have the concepts of ship, shield, bullet or space invader? Does it have anything that corresponds to the concept of a group of space invaders? Can it generalize? I'm sure human players could quickly adapt if we changed the game so that the ship would shoot from the top to the bottom instead. Does the DNQ agent have anything analogous to an inner simulator... (read more)

0jacob_cannell
The DNQ agent has a much simpler visual system that is suitable to the low complexity graphics of the Atari world. It also learns through supervised backprop on the RL signals, whereas the human cortex appears to learn through some more complex mix of RL and UL (more UL the closer one gets to the sensory stream, more RL as one moves up closer to the reward cirucits) The more complex vision ANNs trained on natural images do produce visual concepts (features) that are reasonably close to those found in various stages of the human visual system. It all depends on the training data and the model architecture.
2Gunnar_Zarncke
The concepts of the DNQ agent are surely alien to us - because it's world is alien. At least if you think of the world as what it is: A bunch of coordinates and movement-patterns. The 2D visualization is just a rendering to even allow humans to deal with it in familiar categories. And that is what we do: We use our pre-existing categories to play it well. Over time an experienced player will improve these toward what the DNQ starts to aquire from scratch. I'd bet that it possible to map the DNQ representations to player coodinate, enemy hight and something that amounts to the aim of a shot. At least if the NN is deep and wide enough.
4[anonymous]
That's... rather the point of this research, no? Kaj is trying to make an original contribution here. The DNQ agent does have an internal simulator, but is not designed to have a rigorous concept network like Kaj is describing here.
PyryP70

I think we have to be really careful when bringing AIXI/Kolmogorov complexity to the discussion. My strong intuition is that AIXI is specifically the type of alien intelligence we want to avoid here. Most programming languages have very short programs that behave in wild and complex ways when analyzed from a human perspective. To an AIXI mind based on those programming languages this kind of behavior is by definition simple and preferred by Occam's Razor. The generalizations to n+1 dimensions that this kind of an intelligence makes are almost guaranteed to... (read more)

PyryP00

The venue has changed! We are now meeting up at Cafe Vanha at Mannerheimintie 3, Helsinki.

PyryP30

It took me couple of years to get to the point where depression started to dominate so I guess a lot of the groundwork was already done. It did really only take me only a couple of months of regular practice to get the fruits of DavidM's method. The heaviest bouts of depression, boredom and insanity occur during meditation but some of that "leaks" to the daily life as well. The really weird stuff I had like a visualisation of a creature that chops of your body parts and dances around with them laughing only occur in meditation. There are no hallu... (read more)

PyryP00

I'll likely be there too.

PyryP20

I'm glad you liked the key-frame metaphor. I'm planning on writing a proper article about these experiences and developing a coherent language that makes sense to other physical algorithms trying to experience themselves as such. However I feel that I need to meditate a little longer to make sure I'm not making up too much nonsense.

The main difference between knowing that the self is an illusion and feeling it as such is control of the self-alief. Even without getting into a meditative state I can steer my experience from the habitual one that I use to soc... (read more)

0moridinamael
Thanks. I look forward to the article and wish you luck.
PyryP60

Different things usually do have different frequencies but that depends on the meditative stage I'm in. Stage 2 usually involves different sensations bursting to the foreground of attention vibrating at their own pace and maybe even accelerating in frequency as they appear and decelerating when fading out. Stage 3 is a cacophony of subtle sensations all vibrating at different frequencies and slowly shifting about. Because everything is constantly fading out and stays in the background it's hard to pick up any individual vibrations at all. Trying to "h... (read more)

PyryP50

I perceive two kinds of vibrations. The first one is always associated with a sensory object and it's a subtle but regular variation between the object existing and not existing. I can compare the rate of these vibrations between objects and for slow vibrations I can even count individual waves such as my finger now vibrating at three times per one heart beat. For more rapid vibrations I sort of "hear" them but I cannot count the individual flashes of existence.

The second type of vibration that I perceive is of perception itself. My attention is ... (read more)

1moridinamael
This is fascinating and I wish more people would describe experiences like this in terms of familiar metaphors like key-framing instead of metaphors which only make sense to other accomplished meditators. Maybe it's just the writer in me, but I feel that any subjective experience can be communicated. What is the difference between knowing consciously that identity is an illusion and intuitively feeling that identity is an illusion? I became a good reductionist long ago, but I still feel my own identity. I'm not sure if I would want to lose it.
0Fhyve
For vibration type 1, do different things have different frequencies? Do certain classes of things fall under similar frequency ranges? Do the frequency of particular objects change over time? Is that change predictable? (Ignore any questions that assume "yes" to the previous when the previous is "no") For type 2, is this just noticing how things are all the time (higher sensitivity), or is it a degradation in the quality of your perception or experience? As before, does the frequency change and if so, is it predictable? edit, also, how bad was stage 3 for you?
PyryP110

I've been doing this for a while now and reached the end that the author calls partial enlightenment. I dislike the term however. It sounds so new agey.

The only thing that has happened is that I now see myself as an inseparable part of the physical universe both on the level of belief and alief. This insight makes life's problems seem less acute as they cannot target a permanent self on the alief-level. I still get sad, feel pain and pleasure but I see them more as fantastic stories about reality made up by my brain than the actual reality of (physical) ca... (read more)

0pleeppleep
I know it's been a while since you left this, but I was wondering; do you pass through the stages of depression, boredom, and insanity that he mentioned just by consistently meditating for a few months? No one else who talks about Vipassana seems to mention them. Also, do all the weird things that happen occur just during meditation, or are they constant?
2Fhyve
What are these "vibrations" that he constantly refers to? Why are they given special importance? From a biologist (or cog scientist) perspective, what are they?
PyryP10

Yeah, I think you're right. I just feel unclear or unfocused even though I actually perceive everything pretty clearly and reasonably focused. It was kind of weird to notice that. :)

I haven't had those waves of pain after I noticed that most of the unclarity was illusory. The waves might have had something to do with being unsatisfied with unclarity and having a very clear perception of this dissatisfaction. My theory is that all this goes into a feedback loop if you don't know that the objects of focus are actually supposed to seem unclear.

My mind cannot ... (read more)

PyryP00

My mind is more muddled than what it used to be so I cannot at this time pin point exactly what these negative feelings are. After concentrating a while on my abdomen a painful wave grips my attention and physically throws me off my meditation posture. It's usually a general feeling of loss without an object. I call it despair. It also comes with an unpleasant bodily sensation that I don't know a name for. The whole thing makes it impossible to sit straight or focus on anything but the emotional or the bodily pain. For those who have little experience in m... (read more)

0DavidM
Try to observe that carefully every time it happens. You said that you can sometimes see negative feelings as mental objects and not "yours," so you're definitely on the right track. Consider ways that you may not be fully seeing them as mental objects. For example, are the negative feelings afflictions for you? How do you know? If you know because they feel as if they are, make sure you recognize the feeling "being afflicted by negative feelings" or the impression "having negative feelings present in my experiential field" as a mental object too. (This "affliction" is part of the non-standard meaning of "aversion" or "hatred" which is shared with Buddhism.) It's a little hard to get across what I mean here, but if you see it, you'll probably recognize what I'm trying to say. Apart from the twitching, it sounds like you can perceive vibrations pretty well. If you're in stage three, the "lack of clarity" is related to the fact that the "fading out" is is the clearest part. (Imagine a video of the moon waxing and waning using time-lapse photography, and imagine that the waning is extremely clear and the waxing is hard to discern.) That's simply how they present, and you may not actually be missing anything, which would mean you're doing a good job. If you additionally feel that the vibrations aren't clear, that feeling is a different mental object; label it. Feeling that they aren't clear, and simple fact of their being unclear (or reporting on their unclarity using the word 'feel'), are different. If you additionally feel that your concentration is a mess, that's a mental object too. It is very hard to improve concentration in stage three, so if that's where you are, for now I wouldn't focus too much on trying to get a lot better at it than you already are.
PyryP00

Now this is a clear program with well defined goals and a clear roadmap to that goal. I'll definately be trying this out! I practiced a different kind of buddhist meditation a few years back. Unfortunately I quit right in the middle of stage three depressions. That sucked a lot and still sucks right to this day. Don't do that. I have no idea what you're talking about with these vibrations, though. The practice I did had a different focus. At the time of writing I'm only 45 minutes in but I'm already getting waves of negative feelings while trying to concentrate on my breathing in despair. I just hope I'll have a better resolve this time around to get over the bad stuff as quickly as possible...

0DavidM
Looking forward to hearing how it's going. If you really are in stage 3, I would suggest not trying to shut out or ignore your negative feelings, whether or not you're focusing on your breath. Where are they, subjectively? What is negative about experiencing them? What are their exact qualities? Entertaining that sort of stuff can sometimes be helpful. EDIT: My working theory right now is that the perception of "vibrations" is somehow related to the particular technique I describe, whereas the stages are more general in relevance.