All of QuestionTime's Comments + Replies

not helpful, but not worth negative ten points either. negative five at worst. upvoted.

I take ritalin and a single cup of coffee most days. Physical exercise is supposedly helpful as well.

1Roko
And does the Ritalin help?
3Arenamontanus
Exercise has demonstrated good effect on memory and a bunch of other mental stats; the cause apepars to be the release of neural growth factors (and likely better circulation and general health).

Thanks very much for your thoughts, and for making a top level post on the topic. Yes, her contribution to social welfare is something I find very attractive, and you help me remember just how important and rare that is.

Bayesian Statistician Andrew Gelman appears to have some differences with you. See: http://www.stat.columbia.edu/~cook/movabletype/archives/2009/02/different_meani.html

Thank you very much for this data point.

Part of what motivates this post is that research on happiness suggests that people have a hard time predicting how happy they will be in various possible futures. Gilbert has suggested that introspection is so poor that we better off just asking people in that situation how they feel.

Its interesting that people seem to a) be as skeptical of my rationality as they seem to be, and b) think that is the crux of the matter.

Regarding a), if someone tells me that they've been reading OB/LW for quite a while and that they think they are considerably more rational than their romantic partner, I think it is very likely that they are correct. But maybe if I was on the other side I would react differently. If I knew of an easy way to prove my rationality I would, but I don't. Even writing an original rational essay wouldn't prove much because I... (read more)

My advice is first, to talk to her a lot about sex and make it clear how important that is to you.

If that doesn't work, consider asking her for permission to sleep with other women. That option would satisfy me in your situation temporarily, but I'd have to think about whether it would satisfy me longer term.

Thank you, this sounds like very good advice for how to lead someone down the path.

But given that she is reluctant to go down the path, do I want to lead her down it? She already believes that I can defend my views better than she can her's. She probably even believes that my views are closer to the truth.

My guess is that she is reluctant to discuss and evaluate the fundamental facts of existence and our values, precisely because she cherishes certain aspects of her current worldview that she correctly believes she is likely to lose. I think its plaus... (read more)

2jimmy
In my case, it was worth it. There may be a stubborn reluctance to "give in" or other lower level things that get in the way of believing the truth, but if at the top level she would really rather believe the truth, you're probably fine. If you can't get her to say in full honesty "I would rather believe the truth than made up 'feel good' stories", you're probably hosed. My girlfriend started out as a creationist christian and is now pretty much atheist. Overall, she is much more reasonable and can make the right decision on the types of things she previously did not. She seems to be about as happy as before, and when she's not she can recognize the cause so it's not nearly as damaging. I'd call that a success so far. In general, I have a pretty strict policy of calling each other on any BS. I attempt to get the point across in a nice way, but will persist until she understands even if it does make her upset in the short term. The one exception was when I found out that she believed in creationism. That was too big of a bite, so we left it as "agree to disagree", though I made it obvious that I did not respect her belief. I never made an attempt to deconvert her, but it did happen on its own. There's probably a better way to do it that can make the same progress without ever upsetting the person, but in my experience it ended up being worth it to push through anyway.
4Apprentice
I'd be curious to know what sort of power dynamic you have. My spouse believes I am more rational and intelligent than s/he is - but s/he's still the one who makes the decisions. I advise - my spouse decides. We both like it that way and we've had a successful and happy relationship for more than a decade. Now that I think about it, this is reminiscent of Eliezer's "Three Worlds Collide". You want to keep the rationalist cultists around - but you don't want them in charge :p
3Annoyance
It's impossible to make someone reason if they don't wish to. It's impossible to force someone to acknowledge the truth if they don't want to acknowledge it. You don't need to lead her down any path, even if she were willing to follow. She probably already knows what the rational approach is and doesn't choose to implement it. In the event that she doesn't, teach her the method of rationality - not just the result - if she comes to you for help. Don't, otherwise. If she's comfortable with letting you be reasonable, and you're comfortable with letting her have her magical thinking, I'd say everything is fine.

A big part of the issue is that I'm not sure whether in depth discussions of my views will a) convince her, or b) help her live a good and happy life, or c) the relationship between a) and b).

Regardless, I'll need to push a little more conversation of LWish topics before doing anything crazy like getting married. She realizes this as well.

Let me explain that sentence a bit more. As you know, preference utilitarianism comes with quite a bit of bullet-swallowing and while I may be less hard core than some, I swallow bullets she seems very hesitant to. Perhaps equally or more importantly, like most people, she doesn't seem to like to taste the bullets, i.e. ponder uncomfortable thoughts, accept uncertainty, etc. I, on the other hand, seem to take some perverse pleasure in thinking and talking about such topics. From her perspective, I sometimes "analyze things e.g. a poem, a play, the proper emotional response to situation X, to death to the point of being distracted from their inherent value."

3dclayh
For me, any (serious) talk of "overanalyzing" or "overthinking" things would be a huge red flag. But maybe I'm unusual in that.

I would probably give you a response you liked better if I understood why you were asking what you were asking.

Why are you an atheist, (why) do you believe science works...

Because the evidence favors atheism and suggests science leads to truth more often than other approaches to belief formation? I could link to arguments but I don't see the point in trying to explain these things in my own words. Does it help to know that I usually agree with your comments and with the LW consensus, where it exists? Is the implication that the more rational I am,... (read more)

2orthonormal
This is a delicate topic, but I think Vladimir is trying to tell whether you really use rationality to the degree you claim, or whether you rather accept certain opinions of people you see as rationalists, and wish others shared them. In the latter case, it doesn't matter that the clash is between rationalist and irrationalist opinions: the conflict is isomorphic to any relationship between people of different religions or political parties, and much of the advice for those people should work for you. It's the former case that would require more particular advice. I'm afraid that, in the absence of seeing your thought process, much of this looks like guessing the teacher's password to me. I'd be happy to be corrected, though. EDIT: Wow, that sounds really tactless and dismissive of me. I retract my accusation, on the basis of (1) not having any real justification and (2) it would set a bad precedent, especially for the sort of reception newcomers get.
0[anonymous]
So the program of understanding each other doesn't make progress. I agree with Alicorn, it's essential to establish a mode of communication where you can steadily work on disagreements, with the goal of ultimately resolving them in full. The arguments shouldn't turn into color politics, polarizing and alienating. A bit of advice, based on my experience, for a long-term conversion strategy: * Work on understanding your own position better, make sure you know why you believe what you believe before trying to convince another person to change one's mind. Maybe you are wrong. * Make the mode of interaction and your goals clear when you are arguing, distinguish analysis from social interaction. * Educate the person about fundamentals, thus steadily crafting tools for making deeper arguments in specific discussions. * Prefer shifting the discussion towards education about more general mistake that (might have) contributed to a specific mistake or confusion. In long term, it's more important than resolving a specific problem, and it's easier on the other person's feelings, as you are educating on an abstract theme, rather than attacking a conviction. * Don't argue the objects of emotional attachment, ever. Instead, work on finding an angle of approach (as suggested above, maybe something more fundamental) that allows you to make progress without directly confronting the issue. * Not everyone is going to change, some people are too dim or too shallow or persistently not interested.

Alicorn, Thanks for responding - see my "Added" to the original comment.

She seems to take a fairly reasonable approach to dealing with / working around her emotional issues and tries hard not to let me suffer because of them.

The atheism / theism divide could be much worse. I'm not sure her beliefs even have net-negative consequences. At present, the main issue is that we each have important beliefs that we don't think we can share. RE: children, we could probably both accept me having the right to be honest about my beliefs but not pushing the... (read more)

2Alicorn
Being able to share differing beliefs has more to do with whether you can both remain civil about important things than whether you agree. I regularly and enthusiastically pick apart minute disagreements between myself and my friends, and would feel as though something were lacking if I couldn't - but we can switch topics from politics to polenta when someone gets fed up and there are no hard feelings. If you can't do that with your girlfriend, that indicates a deeper-running incompatibility than merely disagreeing on rationality. Even if you agreed on all the big issues, it would be miraculous for you to make it through life without ever arguing, and being able to argue without it having it destroy your relationship is an essential skill.

I think I'm quite rational and have a decent understanding of aspects of rationality that I haven't managed to implement yet. I think karma is a very imperfect measure, but I'll note that I have more than 100 and less than 400.

She is probably one standard deviation above average in terms of IQ, and would score more highly when considering other kinds of intelligence. The main problem in convincing her to think more rationally is emotional resistance.

Thank you for responding - see my "Added" to the original comment.

1Vladimir_Nesov
Huh? Karma on this site primarily shows positive contribution/participation (if you are able to contribute positively), treating it as a "measure of rationality" is a bizarre perspective. Please try to outline your position on the specific questions I suggested, or something of that kind, it's hard to make such a decision in a well-known case, but yet harder to construct fully general advice. For another example, why do you think it's important to get away from magical thinking? Is it? What is your motivation for thinking about rationality, and for dispelling the other person's confusion? "Compatibility" of worldviews?

I need relationship advice and I trust the wisdom and honesty of this community more than most of my friends. I created a new account to ask this question.

I'm with an incredibly compassionate, creative woman. She excels at her job, which is a "helping profession," and one which I believe improves social welfare far more than most. The sex is outstanding.

But she loves magical thinking, she is somewhat averse to expected-utility calculations, my atheism, etc. She is, by her own admission, subject to strong swings of emotion and at greater tha... (read more)

0rhollerith
I am pretty sure that most strong male rationalists are better off learning how the typical woman thinks than holding out for a long-term relationship with a strong female rationalist. Since this point is probably of general interest, I put it in a top-level post. Converting her to your worldview sounds like a bad idea in general. An additional consideration that applies in your particular situation is that converting a helping professional from deontologism to consequentialism will more likely than not make her less effective at work (because helping professionals need all the help they can get to care enough about their patients and clients, and worldview is definitely one source of significant help in that regard). Nobody has responded to the following: I, too, will refrain from commenting because you probably mean "strong swings of mood" and I do not have romantic experience with a moody woman. I do have romantic experience with a fiery woman, i.e., a woman easily aroused to strong negative emotions, but I doubt that is what you mean: in what I am calling a "fiery" woman, the emotion always dissipates quickly -- usually in a few minutes. You say, I would consider that a very positive sign in a prospective sexual partner -- maybe an extremely positive sign (the reason for my uncertainty being that I have never been with a woman whose expected global utility was as high as you describe) -- a sign that would make me pursue the woman much more keenly. The fact that you use language such as "would have net-benefits for her and for the world long-term" (emphasis mine) suggests to me that you are like me in the relevant characteristics and consequently should take it to be a very positive sign, too. The most I can say about the global expected utility (i.e., expected effect on the world in the long term) of any of my girlfriends up to now is that (1) she has many close friendships of long duration, and she is very caring and helpful to those friends or that (2) s
2byrnema
With respect to making your decision, I would advise you to just spend more time with her. It usually took me about 18 months to figure out how I would finally feel about someone, long-term, that I was initially attracted to. After that period of time, differences were either sources of annoyance (or something more neutral) or sources of contempt. If the latter, for either one of you, you're "too different". (Things are complicated by the fact that there's always a little contempt in a relationship, but the contempt I'm talking about will tend to grow and feel more important than everything else over time.) In other words, I don't believe, a priori, that in order to be consistently rational, a rationalist should seek out another rationalist. You're probably seeking someone that complements you, and pushes you to more fully experience life, and that's why opposites attract. As long as you have the same core values about what matters to you both. It takes time to determine if you share those. Regarding the magical thinking that perplexes you: it doesn't seem to me that most rationalists actually understand what it is that magical thinkers believe. For example, if you think about it in terms of scientifically true and false, you're probably not thinking about it the right away. Magical thinkers know they're not making scientific statements. For example, it's not false to believe you have a soul. Whatever she really means by having a soul, she does have. That's why rational arguments don't work. I think it's a matter of communication: she's not really expressing what she means by soul, and you're not really arguing (if you were to) that what she doesn't have is the soul she's talking about. Her description of a soul may be naive and if she's says anything about it that is scientifically falsifiable, then she is confused about what she means. But whenever she gives a description that is not scientifically falsifiable, and you see it as false, you are probably interpret
0jimrandomh
Rationality sometimes goes badly wrong, when important details don't fit into a neat reasoning structure or a fatal flaw in argument goes undetected. Emotional reasoning sometimes goes badly wrong, when it deals with corner cases or situations too far from the environments it was evolved to handle. Rationality goes wrong less often, but crucially, they go wrong in different and mostly non-overlapping circumstances. If you have a different world view and reasoning style than your partner, then this might produce conflict, but it also gives you both far better sanity checking than any like-minded person could. You can't transform her mind, but you can act as a rationalist oracle. You speak of this as though it were only a flaw, but in fact it has both an upside and a downside. Use the upside, and mitigate the downside.
4Vladimir_Nesov
So the program of understanding each other doesn't make progress. I agree with Alicorn, it's essential to establish a mode of communication where you can steadily work on disagreements, with the goal of ultimately resolving them in full. The arguments shouldn't turn into color politics, polarizing and alienating. A bit of advice, based on my experience, for a long-term conversion strategy: * Work on understanding your own position better, make sure you know why you believe what you believe before trying to convince another person to change one's mind. Maybe you are wrong. * Make the mode of interaction and your goals clear when you are arguing, distinguish analysis from social interaction. * Educate the person about fundamentals, thus steadily crafting tools for making deeper arguments in specific discussions. * Prefer shifting the discussion towards education about more general mistake that (might have) contributed to a specific mistake or confusion. In long term, it's more important than resolving a specific problem, and it's easier on the other person's feelings, as you are educating on an abstract theme, rather than attacking a conviction. * Don't argue the objects of emotional attachment, ever (unless the person is ready for that, at which point you are probably done with bootstrapping). Instead, work on finding an angle of approach (as suggested above, maybe something more fundamental) that allows you to make progress without directly confronting the issue. * Not everyone is going to change, some people are too dim or too shallow or persistently not interested.
3hrishimittal
I'm in a situation which seems sort of the opposite of yours. I'm with a woman, who's more rational than any other I personally know. But the sex is just not very good, and I find myself getting physically drawn to other women a bit too much. I've struggled for weeks, trying to decide whether to continue or not. I've tried hard to think what I really want. And I think that if I were sexually satisfied, I would be very happy with the relationship because everything else seems perfect. So, I'm trying to work on that now. I'm paying more attention to being a loving and sensuous partner. Let's say I'm experimenting on the weak aspects of my relationship. If I were in your place, I'd take each point of disagreement on its own merit. If it's decisions where the results can be seen clearly I wouldn't argue but just politely point to the results. As far as religious beliefs are concerned, the more I think about it the more I feel, that defining myself as an 'atheist' is only useful in saying that I don't believe in God. Beyond that, it doesn't add anything valuable to my personality. It can't because it's a negative definition. So, I would try and deal with specific issues rather than try to convince my partner that theism is wrong. If she believes in magic, playful humour might lighten things up a bit. I also think it would be useful if you learnt more about her way of thinking, just like she has learnt about yours.
Cyan
100

How should I go about deciding whether to continue this?

With science!

Specifically, the science of John Gottman. Short version: irreconcilable differences of viewpoint are not an intrinsic bar to a long-lasting relationship. The most potent relationship poison is contempt.

0Vladimir_Nesov
How strong is your own understanding of rationality? Why are you an atheist, (why) do you believe science works, what is the difference between one person who is actually right and another person who is merely confused, etc.? How smart is she (that is, how easy it'll be to positively apply more confused and complex arguments, not requiring of you great feats of persuasion)? I'll be interested in what other people think about applying the corpus of Overcoming Bias directly (doesn't seem like a generally good idea to me, requires a person to be of a kind that'll maintain focus for extended period of time).
7Alicorn
It is possible to make a relationship work in which each party has a role in the general neighborhood of "the rational one" or "the emotional one", as long as the relative places and merits of these roles are acknowledged by both parties. Since you say she's prepared to admit to her mood swings, this may be doable. My proposed checklist: * If she suffers from an extended period of depression, is she prepared to address that (therapy, antidepressants, ice cream & sad movies, whatever she finds works for her), or would she let it greatly interfere with her life and your lives together? * How averse to your atheism is she? How averse to her (presumable) theism are you? Do you have enough else to talk about and enough ability to skirt the topic that it can avoid being a major point of contention between you? If you want kids eventually, can you come to an agreement about how to raise them re: religion? * Does her magical thinking lead her to do anything profoundly instrumentally stupid, or does it mostly just make her sound a little silly occasionally? * Can you respect her, as well as love her, in spite of her failures of rationality? Or would you be hoping in the back of your mind forever and always that she'd eventually wise up and be a more rational version of herself that you could respect? * Are you compatible on other long-term axes? (Financially, politically, life goals, desire to live in a particular location, opinions on family and homemaking, etc.) If you can give the "right" answer to all of those questions (I think it should be obvious in each case which answer would be best) then go for it and the best of luck to you. If you can't, you either need to address the situation and fix it, or move on.