All of Rings_of_Saturn's Comments + Replies

Thank you for this lengthy and thoughtful reply. I, too, am encouraged to notice the points on which we agree or are not that far off.

I don't really think you are the "thought police," and I didn't mean to imply that. But I do stand by my assessment of your post as vaguely coercive. There is such a thing as coercion by public shaming. I think this is what Roko might have been getting at in his recent post. If you do not see how this is a legitimate concern, then perhaps I can pull an "Alicorn" and just insist that if you were a man, you... (read more)

0Alicorn
My memory informs me of no instances in which you've said anything that tripped my "gah sexism" switch.

Alicorn:

I would be interested to hear your reply to the more substantive charges that Roko levels. I am in general in agreement with him that while the issue you raise is worth thinking about and discussing, your method of talking about it is thoroughly and consistently disingenuous. To wit: In your classification you left out a fourth group of people, of which I would consider myself one: people who actively support gender-neutrality but have a completely different definition of it and who consider people with your definition to be the ones similar to fis... (read more)

-1Alicorn
As you request, so I comply. Guilty, I suppose. I really wouldn't think of it or put it like that. I was hoping to alert the group that I still suspect is the majority (the group who, prior to said alert, were sympathetic but oblivious). I do consider making friends a great side effect of participating in this community, but apart from the fact that I mostly make friends with people who don't say rude and stupid things about women, I don't think I could call them "a political band of feminist allies". Since this accusation is leveled at something "implicit", asking me to respond to it is asking me to take responsibility for Roko's interpretation of what I said, but all right. Disagreement is not the problem. If we were having serious discussions about whether certain language is okay, that would be disagreement, and I would not downvote or ask anyone else to downvote polite and thoughtful arguments in favor of talking more or less the way Roko et. al. have been. I will downvote and hope that others will downvote comments that operate under the assumption that the status quo of language (namely, one in which sexist ideas slide in unobtrusively without people generally batting an eye) is unassailably correct. Posts and comments that use sexist language and express sexist ideas without disclaiming them or acknowledging that they might be identified that way should not be seen as the typical way of things in need of no thought from anyone about their hurtful effects. I have a faction? Cool! I didn't realize I had a faction. I always wanted to lead a faction when I grew up! I will charitably assume that "specifically" crept in there by accident, since I never said anything about ostracism, I think it should go without saying that everyone is subject to criticism, and as far as downvoting goes - see above. The idea that the language I complain about is "perfectly standard" is exactly what I want to attack. "Seems normal to Roko" is not the criterion for perfect stan

My main problem with this post is that it attempts to impose social norms based on nothing more than your personal feelings, Alicorn.

I found your "Disclaimer" very off-putting. Though I'm sure you will say that you were either trying to be as straight-forward as possible or that you are just being cute and charming (taking these assumptions from comments you have already posted), I immediately read this disclaimer as saying: "Anyone who disagrees in the comments with what I have to say in this post is almost certainly going to be labelled as... (read more)

Alicorn200

My main problem with this post is that it attempts to impose social norms based on nothing more than your personal feelings, Alicorn.

If the evidence linked to in the post didn't persuade you that I'm not alone in those feelings, I'm afraid I don't have any more handy to offer, especially since as I write this comment the site is down and I can't do searches.

I found your "Disclaimer" very off-putting. Though I'm sure you will say that you were either trying to be as straight-forward as possible or that you are just being cute and charming ...

... (read more)
2[anonymous]
Agreed. I'm not really convinced that PUAs teach us anything about rationalism. What do we really learn from them? They didn't learn their methods by applying ours. They're empiricists sure, but that's kindergarten stuff to us. In the PUA-related threads I sometimes get the sense that LWers are treating rationality like being on a football team or playing guitar ("If only I was as rational as those guys, chicks would think I'm SO AWESOME.") This is clearly just fantasising, and a waste of everyone's time.

This idea does not have my approval.

Alicorn:

What if I told you that talking about "getting a woman" was a direct and honest expression of my most inner desires, that I really did view her in that objectifying way, and that I considered this attitude perfectly natural and healthy, and that, furthermore, I find it objectionable for others to consider it their perogative to correct me on this?

And that I very often find "being offended" to be an offensive behavior in its own right?

And that I heavily discount verbal contradiction from other males because it signals a very well-established mating posture, that of the helpful and supplicant beta male?

Emily:

I have heard this argument before, and I don't think it carries quite the same force as you apparently do.

You seem to vastly underestimate the kinds of remarks that men hear constantly that tell them that because they are men, they must be a certain way. The general culture is full of notions, some loud and some winking, that men are terrible, evil, violent, lazy, stupid, inept, and on and on. Turn on any American primetime television show and observe the male characters with a dispassionate eye. Try to discern which gender is more often portrayed as... (read more)

4Emily
Thanks for the thoughtful reply, RoS. I agree that there is some merit in your point about the "stop sign"; in fact, before I had any real understanding of feminism myself (not that I consider myself to have a massive amount now), that was my general response to this sort of thing too. I thought the stance I'm taking now was rather whiney, self-centred and, as you think, obstructive with regards to dialogue and argument. But I've come to see that engaging with feminism rather than seizing this opportunity to dismiss it actually makes a lot more sense. I do, of course, agree that there are very many negative stereotypes around about men, and they're as unhelpful and undesireable as the ones about women. And obviously, there are positive stereotypes about women as well as about men (more about this below). But as you go on to say, the situation is far from balanced: men are, by and large, the ones with the power. Do you disagree that this situation, which has been the case forever, means that there's an imbalance in the effects that stereotyping, exclusion etc. directed towards women as opposed to men can have? (By the way, perhaps this is different political perspectives talking, but I don't understand your point about redistribution of wealth. Is it okay for certain groups to have less political power as long as they reap the benefits of others paying taxes? I can see that argument working where the group in question is children, and perhaps the severely mentally disabled (maybe that's controversial?), but otherwise I see no justification for it whatsoever.) I didn't actually mean to assert that I could understand men's experiences better than they can understand women's -- I was simply working with people's assertions that, in fact, the reversed situation wouldn't bother them -- but it happens that some schools of thought do believe that to be the case: that women do actually have a better handle on how men see the world than vice versa. That's because the male

Also somewhat off-point but I'll post this anyways:

I'll agree that this post is "male-centric" in the sense that Alicorn is talking about. But I don't think it's fatally so, as any smart woman (or homosexual for that matter) can of course recognize that the mate-choosing parallel is arbitrarily chosen, and can make the necessary changes to create a parallel example in mate-choosing that's more relevant to his/her own life.

However, as a heterosexual man myself, I'll respond directly to the example.

I must admit that I take a lot of pleasure in choo... (read more)

Yes, I think that you are just shunting the moral problem here down the pike.

Maybe you can imagine you just discovered Anne Frank's family was living in your attic moments before the brownshirts come knocking?

... and resume with dilemma.

Yeah... I can't think of any good actual examples either, but maybe we should be trying to falsify rationality, rather than verify it.

If anything, I have the convert's bias in this regard, Michael, not the true-born believer's. I'm fairly young and was raised in quite a progressive household. I'd suspect myself more of overstating my case because it has come to me as such a revelatory shock. But that's neither here nor there, as I'm not advocating for any specific "tradition."

I'll posit that gender roles and dynamics since the feminist movement began in earnest in the 60s and 70s have proven to be a sizable and essentially unprecedented break from the previous continuum in West... (read more)

2A1987dM
You might be Generalizing From One Example -- just because you like that doesn't mean all women do, and in fact I strongly believe that some women do and some don't, where by "some" I mean "more than 5% and less than 95%".
pjeby300

What I personally have observed is that there are plenty of men and women who have a need or desire to be dominated. And that a minority of these people can't deal with the idea that it's "just" a sexual fetish or personal quirk, but must convince themselves instead that the entire world would be happier or much better off if only our entire society were male supremacist or female supremacist, accordingly.

I've also observed that there are plenty of people who have a leadership or followership preference in a relationship... but the desire to be... (read more)

Also, as I know you are aware because you linked to it once at OB, Eliezer, there is the work of Gregory Clark, which suggests a double reason refuting this essay's line of argument. Not a response directly to your comment then, but as an add on I mention it here.

I suppose this line of reasoning is not new to most here, but since I don't see it explicitly mentioned....

1) Most controversial, and almost an aside to the main argument that Clark makes but of course the claim that gets the most ink: that there is something in the culture or even genes of certai... (read more)

That both women and men are far happier living with traditional gender roles. That modern Western women often hold very wrong beliefs about what will make them happy, and have been taught to cling to these false beliefs even in the face of overwhelming personal evidence that they are false.

8[anonymous]
I'm curious - is your personal evidence anecdotal, qualitative, quantitative...? Michael Vassar also makes a good point - the values and implications of "traditional roles" vary a great deal across time, and especially across socioeconomic status. There are certainly career women in the West who perceive taking time off to care for children as a relief from the rat race and a chance to contribute to society in another positive way. They might feel differently had they been, say, a 12-year old Zimbabwean girl who never attended school, was married to an older man to help her family's finances, developed an obstetric fistula in childbirth, and never left her husband's compound again. That isn't just traditional, it's an active reality for millions of poor women around the world. There are also many happy, healthy, educated African career women and stay-at-home-moms, of course. The context of "tradition" is very important.
7clumma
I agree. But even though feminists (and other women exposed to the rhetoric) may say they want gender "equality" to increase their happiness, it is not necessarily the real reason. Once it becomes possible for women to enter the workplace (for any reason), competition will force other women to follow suit. Elizabeth Warren's research shows, for instance, that positional goods (housing, education) have experienced tremendous inflation since the '70s. The quality of these goods hasn't improved commensurately.
4Z_M_Davis
I believe that many if not most people value some things more than happiness.
0Nick_Tarleton
I find it interesting that this comment is (currently) the highest-scoring, with 7 more points than the second highest. (Oh, wrong, it's second among top-level comments. Still interesting.)

How traditional? 1600s Japan? Hopi? Dravidian? Surely it would be quite a coincidence if precisely the norms prevalent in the youth and culture of the poster or his or her parents were optimal for human flourishing.

Thanks, Vladimir. You have interesting friends!

One of the reasons parents often give for the Santa myth is that it is "fun" and it's good to give children a sense of wonder and joy. This is not a trivial argument.

I don't have children yet, but this post has made me wonder if a strictly no-lies-about-basic-reality policy wouldn't lead to just as much wonder. Is Santa really that necessary, even for the stated junior-level purpose it's given?

There are lots of fantastic, amazing things to wonder at, as a child and as an adult:

Everything in our universe may have started in the biggest, most gigan... (read more)

5Court_Merrigan
That's great stuff. I feel like I should be taking notes.

thomblake:

I also agree with the post's assertion that relying on the absurdity heuristic alone is dangerous ground, it is still an excellent tool for at least calling in to question a set of beliefs which, upon further and more rigorous examination, may or may not merit rejection.

But, I must protest, a talking snake is not "a really bad reason" to reject that set of common beliefs. It is an EXCELLENT reason.

Snakes do not talk.

Yvain:

You've hit on something that I have long felt should be more directly addressed here/at OB. Full disclosure is that I have already written a lot about this myself and am cleaning up some "posts" and chipping away here to get the karma to post them.

It's tough to talk about meditation-based rationality because (a) the long history of truly disciplined mental practice comes out of a religious context that is, as you note, comically bogged down in superstitious metaphysics, (b) it is a more-or-less strictly internal process that is very hard to... (read more)

2Eliezer Yudkowsky
Think you've got enough karma to post already.
1anonym
There has been quite a bit of research in recent years on meditation, and the pace seems to be picking up. For a high level survey of recent research on the two primary forms of Buddhist meditation, I'd recommend the following article: Attention regulation and monitoring in meditation. PDF Here

Vladimir:

It seems you are being respectful of the anonymity of these people, and very well, that. But you pique my curiosity... who were these people? What kind of group was it, and what was their explicit irrationality all about?

I can think of a few groups that might fit this mold, but the peculiar way you describe them makes me think you have something very specific and odd in mind. Children of the Almighty Cthulu?

2Vladimir_Golovin
Rings, what groups did you have in mind?

I’ll describe three most interesting cases.

Number One is a Russian guy, now in his late 40s, with a spectacular youth. Among his trades were smuggling (during the Soviet era he smuggled brandy from Kazakhstan to Russia in the water system of a railway car), teaching in a ghetto college (where he inadvertently tamed a class of delinquents by hurling a wrench at their leader), leading a programming lab in an industrial institute, starting the first 3D visualization company in our city, reselling TV advertising time at a great margin (which he obtained by un... (read more)

I think you are mistaking ambition and the spirit of betterment for "naivety and arrogance."

You say "it is one of those things that humans do and efforts to get rid of it would seem doomed," but that was once applicable to slavery. It may be difficult, quixotic, and almost comically ambitious. But the only thing that would make it "doomed" would be an attitude that says it must be.

MBlume's comment below summarizes nicely how we as a society might go about that (as does this whole thread).

Incidentally, I don't think this comment is really so bad; it's within reasonable argument, if only it didn't come blasting out of the gates with insults.

Johnicholas:

You leave yourself open to the reply that the non-rigorousness of the analogy makes it useless or even pernicious. Owning up to a fault doesn't make it go away.

Owning up to a fault doesn't make it go away.

Congratulations, you have just reduced the proper use of humility to a single proverb. I shall endeavor to go around repeating this.

I think this is a good answer to Eliezer's thought experiment. Teach those budding rationalists about the human desire to conform even in the face of the prima facie ridiculousness of the prevailing beliefs.

Teach them about greens and blues; teach them about Easter Islanders building statues with their last failing stock of resources (or is that too close to teaching about religion?). Teach them how common the pattern is: when something is all around you, you are less likely to doubt its wisdom.

Human rationality (at least for now) is still built on the bl... (read more)