All of rortian's Comments + Replies

rortian30

The big difference between the two is that commuting is isolating whereas trains/subways put you around other human beings. Also, having to focus on other slow moving vehicles is mentally taxing with no obvious benefit. Being able to read, or sometimes nap, is liberating.

1sdenheyer
If you are commuting downtown during rush hour, being with other human beings is a downside - it's quite oppressive, actually. And you probably won't get a seat, which means napping is out, and reading is more of a hassle. I'm in somewhat of an ideal situation, commute-wise - I work just outside the city and live inside, so I commute in the opposite direction of traffic. But I've had to commute downtown occasionally and it's way more exhausting.
rortian10

Done. I didn't mean to imply that none of the others mentioned were attractive, but I understand the concern. Thanks for the heads up.

rortian00

Sure. You are having to cache each thought with certain assumptions in mind (e.g. group of people that like the singularity, people that tolerate talking about the possibility of computers, people that take fantasy seriously, a person that doesn't seem interested in any of the things that the aforementioned might). If we try to think about these assumptions as variables, attempting to cache for a future conversations quickly leads to combinatoric explosion leaving you with an impossible number of things to think about before. This forces you to consider a... (read more)

1simplicio
Not to be humourless, but I wonder if this could be rephrased to something a little more neutral.
rortian40

So the nice thing about pajek, and some other network displaying software, is that you can use algorithms that will attempt display things that are closely related to each other closer together. If I were going to produce your graphic I would:

  1. Get the graph in memory some how, for one this size I would just set up some hash maps in irb
  2. Write a text file where each line consists of two nodes that are connected seperated by a tab.
  3. Use the software here: http://vlado.fmf.uni-lj.si/pub/networks/pajek/howto/text2pajek.htm to get a pajek file
  4. Open it in pajek
... (read more)
0Kaj_Sotala
Oh, that sounds great. Thank you - I've actually been looking for something like that for a while now.
rortian00

Don't know if I did, but I think this caching notion is a bad way to look at it. However, to inject a positive note, thinking about the connections between your interests is a fruitful activity that has value far beyond pre planning conversations.

3Kaj_Sotala
Could you elaborate a bit more on why you think so?
rortian00

A png version would look a lot better. Did you use pajek to make it?

0Kaj_Sotala
StarUML. Which was probably a pretty bad tool for it, but it was what I had installed.
rortian10

I think you are thinking about this the wrong way. Coming into a social situation with a prepared set of ideas to cover is something a preacher does. Doesn't mean it doesn't have its place for certain situations, but it is not the way to approach having a conversation.

Good conversations are a complicated interaction between people. If you want to have a good one with someone, you need to hold their interest as well as your own. To extend a ridiculous metaphor a little further, cache misses in this context with cost you a bit more than a few hundred cycles,... (read more)

1Kaj_Sotala
I think you're misinterpreting my post somehow. I'm not saying you should have a ready list of ideas to convince other people of. I'm saying you should be prepared to have something to say about a lot of things, and be able to shift topics until you find a subject the other person also has an interest in. Of course, if the other person is capable and willing to do that, that's fine as well, but not everyone is. You'll miss out on a lot of interesting discussions if you're not capable of doing your own part.
rortian00

Yeah I like Kevin's short answer. But in general I said to Rain:

You can say you will do something. If someone doesn't trust that assertion, how will they ever trust 'no really I'm serious'.

When you make something a contract you see there are some legal teeth, but swearing to uphold the constitution feels silly.

3mattnewport
Well obviously the idea of an oath only has value if it is credible, that is why there are often strong cultural taboos against oath breaking. In times past there were often harsh punishments for oath breaking to provide additional enforcement but it is true that in the modern world much of the function of oaths has been transferred to the legal system. Traditionally one of the things that defined a profession was the expectation that members of the profession held themselves to a standard above and beyond the minimum enforced by law however. Professional oaths are part of that tradition, as is the idea of an oath sworn by civil servants and other government employees. This general concept is not unique to the US or to government workers.
rortian00

In theory but I wonder how long it has been since you were in school. In GA they got around to making a rule that if you were suspended you would lose your drivers license. Also, suspensions typically imply a 0 on all assignments (and possibly tests) that were due for its duration.

0wedrifid
As a teacher or a student? 4 years and respectively.
rortian00

Personally, I consider it very important to know the rules, laws, commitments, etc., for which I may be responsible, so when I or someone else breaks them, I can clearly note it.

Far out. That is important.

As for your story, it's something I would have done but I hope you understand that a little tact could have gone a long way.

What I was trying to get at you seem to think also. You think you are sending a 'weak signal' that you are committed to something. But you are using words that I think many around here would be suspicious of (e.g. oath and sworn).... (read more)

0Rain
Perhaps through enforcement. There are a significant number of laws, regulations, and directives that cover US Federal employees, and the oath I linked to above is a signed and sworn statement indicating the fact that I am aware of and accept responsibility for them.
rortian00

Do you really take that sort of thing seriously? Far out if you do, but I have trouble with the concept of an 'oath'.

5Rain
Oaths in general can be a form of precommitment and a weak signal that someone ascribes to certain moral or legal values, though no one seemed to take it seriously in this instance. On my first day, it was just another piece of paper in with all the other forms they wanted me to sign, and they took it away right after a perfunctory reading. I had to search it out online to remember just what it was I had sworn to do. Later, I learned some people didn't even remember they had taken it. Personally, I consider it very important to know the rules, laws, commitments, etc., for which I may be responsible, so when I or someone else breaks them, I can clearly note it. For example, in middle school, one of my teachers didn't like me whispering to the person sitting next to me in class. When she asked what I was doing, I told her that I was explaining the lesson, since she did a poor job of it. She asked me if I would like to be suspended for disrespect; I made sure to let her know that the form did not have 'disrespect' as a reason for suspension, only detention.
2mattnewport
How so?
rortian30

e^(pi*i) = -1

Anything else: lame.

2Singularity7337
Uh, how is e^(pi*i) = 1 lame?
0wnoise
e^(2*Pi*i) - 1 = 0. Hah. I fit in more numbers.
rortian20

?

I hardly needed a sad person's false praise. Not being in pitiful emotional state, that has been described more lucidly that I could by others, is all the reward I need.

You asked for advice, I gave some. If you're a jerk to others in a similar situation you may not have much to care about afterwards.

rortian70

I'm surprised no one has suggested it, but if you think that you have clinical depression I would strongly suggest seeking help. I have been depressed, I sought help and life moves on.

3Rain
Congratulations.
rortian00

Well at least this was to a different person. Changing default behaviors is incredibly difficult. Nicely done though :)

rortian40

Biology is the hot science right now. Knowledge about evolution was going to be very superficial until genetics came along. Now that tools are available, we are learning all sorts of things at an amazing clip.

rortian20

Tip: You could pm the people about the error. No need for a permanent public record for trivial mistakes.

8Alicorn
Yeah, when something is in the permanent public record, everybody notices...
0[anonymous]
Or you could delete it after it's been fixed.
-1[anonymous]
He was condescending. When people are policing they tend to assert and maintain their higher status rather than 'descending to be with'. The difference is significant (at least, to the reaction I have to attempts at each and the quality standards I have for comments of each type.)
4Nick_Tarleton
Karma isn't the point.
rortian10

making an unreasonable request for censorship

This was done in the past and I think it was a great request.

demanding work (software) that you don't have the right to ask for.

It was a suggestion that I think people here would enjoy doing. I always have fun when I'm coding something experimental (of course these things are always fun until they're not).

Downvoted for wasting my time with many paragraphs of empty status signals

Interesting charge. Don't worry though, I caught your hostile signals.

6jimrandomh
Sorry, that came off more strongly than I intended. I think the main reason I reacted that way is because your post seemed to put status concerns above truth. In particular, this paragraph Alleges that Less Wrong members are committing groupthink without claiming that they're actually wrong about anything. That cleanly separates further discussion from the facts of any particular matter, and, while I acknowledge that this is an Eliezerish view to hold, I consider that a very bad thing. Technically, that was only a moratorium. But more to the point, topics come and go on Less Wrong, posts about particular topics tend to be temporally clustered, and there're always some complaints about the current topic du jour. I wouldn't worry about cryonics and FAI crowding out other topics; there've been enough posts about them recently that there isn't much left to say, so we probably won't hear much about them for awhile.
rortian20

Fair point. It would have been more precise to say raise the difficulty in charging etc.

rortian-20

Lots of different words and phrases "devalue" different technical terms, since they exist outside of their technical definition. From what I can see from the OED, group think has been used as a term since 1923 and similar phrases like group mind were used in the late 19th century. Because someone makes a definition in a field it does not strip the original word or phrase of its meaning. If that was the case I'm sure lawyers would have a field day with all of us and that I could pick out quite a few misuses of onto on this site.

The technical mean... (read more)

6Morendil
Re "less talking", yeah. One thing that particularly disappointed me was when I proposed starting up a Jaynes study group and got pretty much zero uptake. More disappointed even when people cited "too hard" as the reason. Good points about technical meaning. I guess it's not really people respecting the exact framework from Janis that I'd like, so much as saying things which are more interesting than "you guys are biased". It's just too easy to troll that way. I'm not saying "no one should be able to charge groupthink". I'm hoping that the discussion below this post will encourage and help newcomers (or even regulars) to make clearer and more pointed diagnoses of the pathologies of this community. Just saying "Robin and Eliezer have really biased the crowd on this one", and particularly in the context of a discussion which was devoted to close critical examination of "this one", is providing no value. I'm a relative newcomer, so not really motivated by the celebrity status from OB. I want to encourage discourse that provides value and discourage that which does not. I am so motivated not out of righteousness, but for purely selfish motives: I have learned a lot from this site already (Bayes, Jaynes, MWI, a bunch of smaller conceptual tools from Eliezer's OB writings) and I want more of that good stuff. Positive ROI is what this is about.
3jimrandomh
Downvoted for wasting my time with many paragraphs of empty status signals, making an unreasonable request for censorship, and demanding work (software) that you don't have the right to ask for.
-1Eliezer Yudkowsky
Why was this voted up to +4? Y'all are way too scared of being labeled cultish if you're voting this stuff up. I really wish there was some way to teach arrogance. It seems to be such a large factor in whether people actually make progress as rationalists or not.
3Cyan
Voted you up for some of your points and suggestions, but I gotta say, if you think the OP suggested then you didn't read what it actually said.
rortian10

It's true. However I think people get a little caught up in the China is growing story. Russia is a dying country in a lot of ways. However, both are heavily controlled by corrupt leaders.

EDIT:was->ways

0CronoDAS
Russia had a head start - and has oil wealth. For comparison, Saudi Arabia's GDP per capita is on the order of $17,000. 45% of its entire GDP is its nationalized oil industry; private industry is only 40%.
rortian00

I think he raised a very valid concern. Also, cost is a very important dimension in terms of technological development. If money were not an issue, I have little doubt that we would have seen manned missions to Mars and several asteroids. However, money is very much an issue.

Why will so much go into recovering brains when new ones are so damn cheap?

3Paul Crowley
I'm not disputing that it's a valid concern, I'm trying to focus on one particular question in the discussion rather than just opening another general discussion on the subject of cryonics.
rortian00

Let me just endorse what Douglas Knight said.

You seem to have no clue what insider trading laws are. Company employees and executives can purchase stock. However it is illegal to act on information that is not public.

You can look for filings to see what executives are purchasing positions in their companies. Like you say, it is good sign if people who know the company well are buying in.

1Matt_Simpson
My point is that insider trading makes nonpublic information public.
rortian00

Wow. I replied to the minimum wage stuff a little in another post but I believe you have given me some low laying fruit.

insider trading laws

You wouldn't only think this was a problem if you were a proponent of the strong efficient market hypothesis. There aren't many people out there that don't have misgivings about the weak version, much less the strong one.

income tax/capital gains tax

Hmm. I'll let you explain further. Is it that these are less efficient than other taxes, or is it that they are the way government raise revenue?

The other ones c... (read more)

1Matt_Simpson
Where? If the efficient market hypothesis false, I still think insider trading laws are a bad idea. The people with the best information about the health of a company are precisely the insiders. This is the sort of information that investors would love to have when deciding whether to commit resources to one company or another, and the sort of information which would be socially useful for investors to be acting on. None of this requires the efficient markets hypothesis, just that markets do process information, even if imperfectly. Less efficient than other taxes. As a general rule, you never want to tax production - it discourages productive activities. Capital gains is different because it isn't production per se, but savvy trading - even on the stock market - serves a socially useful function. (Yes, that means I like speculators) I am a libertarian, but probably not as serious as you think. Has it occurred to you that I'm mainly just reporting the collective knowledge of economists? By the way, you still haven't explained why you want economists to have less influence, or what you want them to have less influence on.
rortian00

Sorry to take so long to get back to you on this but I do think this stuff is important.

This line from wikipedia on the minimum wage really captures what I would like to say about a lot of this stuff:

Michael Anyadike-Danes and Wyne Godley [21] argue, based on simulation results, that little of the empirical work done with the textbook model constitutes a potentially falsifying test, and, consequently, empirical evidence hardly exists for that model.

The minimum wage stuff is Econ 101/ideological claim that doesn't take into account a lot of factors. Th... (read more)

rortian40

I haven't gotten back to matt's post, but I will. This sort of amazes me:

Well the models influencing the academy and what influences public policy are definitely not the same

Economist have a huge amount of influence in public policy and US jurisprudence. I would be shocked to hear about another set of models simply for political and judicial consumption. Often they are leaning on economists and not the original work, but they would still be using the same model in this case.

Were it not for the structure of the Senate, we wouldn't have farm subsidies. Everybody but those from largely flat and empty states want them gone.

3Matt_Simpson
Apparently not enough. Consider: * minimum wage * income tax * capital gains tax * insider trading laws * fannie mae and freddy mac * tariffs and other trade restrictions * loads of different subsidies * the post office * etc. In general, the median voter theorem is a much better predictor of policy than the "median economist theorem."
rortian00

Good question. I would say that does happen. Dan Drezner comes mind on this front.

I meant to say that if it had little influence outside of the academy.

1Matt_Simpson
Well the models influencing the academy and what influences public policy are definitely not the same, if that's what you mean. I still don't see what you're getting at. If anything, I think basic economic models are under appreciated. Consider mattnewport's post for examples.
rortian00

Look if econ had little influence outside its field, I would agree and say who cares. However this is hardly case.

I would agree with something you suggested though. We would do well do just discuss the end results and remember that the models are trash.

0Matt_Simpson
I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Why does it matter whether econ influences other fields? Are you suggesting that people in other fields end up taking economic models too seriously? Or something else?
1mattnewport
The real damage comes from macroeconomics and I'd agree that most of the models used there are crap - because they fail at prediction.
rortian-10

I asked about a prediction in human behavior. I am quite well aware of these predictions that are made in general, but this is in an absurdly abstract model with patently false assumptions.

It predicts that, all else being equal, a rise in the price of a good or service will reduce demand for that good or service. Do you think that prediction is wrong?

No, I think it is trivial.

Utility functions in microeconomics are not very useful for predicting human behavior contrary to what you claim. The OP was correct to look for more interesting classes of functions.

2Matt_Simpson
As is any model of human behavior that is tractable. All we're really going for is prediction anyway, so who cares?

I am quite well aware of these predictions that are made in general, but this is in an absurdly abstract model with patently false assumptions.

By 'this' do you mean the model of humans as perfectly rational agents? That's a caricature of microeconomics and is not necessary to make useful predictions based on microeconomic reasoning.

It predicts that, all else being equal, a rise in the price of a good or service will reduce demand for that good or service. Do you think that prediction is wrong?

No, I think it is trivial.

Maybe the simple fact is tri... (read more)

3mattnewport
Well, at the simplest and most obvious level, microeconomics predicts how producers and consumers will respond to changing price levels quite well. It predicts that, all else being equal, a rise in the price of a good or service will reduce demand for that good or service. Do you think that prediction is wrong? Since the entire field of microeconomics is largely about how households and firms make decisions to allocate limited resources I find it odd that it is news to you that it makes predictions about human behaviour. More generally, the impact of a change in incentives can be predicted to a useful level of accuracy by basic microeconomic analysis. By comparison to macroeconomics (admittedly a low bar), microeconomics is quite successful at prediction. Behavioural economics has produced a lot of valuable insights. I doubt the author of the article I linked would deny that. I think however that behavioural economists sometimes make a similar mistake to the one they criticize traditional economists for making when they extrapolate the results of simple lab experiments to the real world. Just as the naive idea of a perfectly rational agent should not be taken too literally, the results of behavioural economics experiments under artificial conditions in a lab should not be applied too literally to real world decision making.
rortian00

Hmm, you don't think omitting it also implies all schools do it?

3Paul Crowley
No, compare "cats have fur" vs "cats always have fur".
rortian10

I'm trying to make the point that its easy to jump on (especially glaring) imprecision. Your general thrust is weakened, often unfairly, by its presence. It can be a bummer for an argument if people jump on imprecise things, but hopefully you can stop that before it happens by omitting them in the first place.

6brazil84
I agree. But at a certain point, you have to rely on the other fellow to be reasonable in interpreting what you say. To illustrate, it takes a lot of time and effort to formulate something like this: It's a lot easier to simply say "the sky is blue." Any reasonable person understands what you mean.
rortian10

I think that is fair. That would be the reasonable thing to do in a debate.

Precision in this case is not any longer (i.e. always vs typically). It can at times, but for people down with logic, you'd think always versus there exists, etc. would be a big deal.

0Paul Crowley
Actually in this instance it's made more precise just by leaving out the word "always".
rortian30

That's really pretty ridiculous. You can try to speak precisely. Why should we all concede that hyperbole is acceptable in an argument?

If you want to argue about student loans you could: approach it from another side or focus on elite/private law schools. Overstating your case only works when preaching to the choir. Then, it misinforms and makes you less credible to others.

4brazil84
I'm not saying that hyperbole is acceptable. But if I engage in hyperbole, it's still rude to nitpick the hyperbole while ignoring the strongest part of the argument. In this case, the argument still stands if one substitutes "generally speaking" for "always." Sure, but it's difficult to be sufficiently precise at all times. It's rude to seize upon an inprecision to dismiss an argument while ignoring the main thrust of the argument.
3magfrump
This seems like the perfect place for the person making the claim about student loans to make a concession (demoting their "always" to "almost always") thus making their debating partner more comfortable to listen to the meat of their argument; but it is also necessary not to take that demotion from "always" to "almost always" as defeat of the entire argument.
2Paul Crowley
Sometimes that sort of precision adds too much length. If you see an easily-fixed problem with an argument, it behooves you to point out the fix in the same comment as the problem.
rortian-10

Consider me incredibly underwhelmed to hear a recitation of Eliezer's views.

It is humorous that you simply assert that Lanier just misuses the word ideology. What I find compelling is his advice to simply do the work and see what can be done.

Eliezer is a story teller. You like his stories and apparently find them worth retelling. Far out. I expect that is what you will always get from him. Look for results elsewhere.

rortian30

I thought people would have seen the videos, and thus what I was talking about this in context. Oh well here are quotes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vecaDF7pnoQ#t=2m26s

That's how the world gets saved.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arsI1JcRjfs#t=2m30

The thing that will kill them when they don't sign up for cryonics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbzV5Oxkx1E#t=4m00s

But for now it can help the rest of us save the world.

(Probably some paraphrasing but the quotes are in the videos).

So other quotes were in the vimeo video, but these mainly concern the argumen... (read more)

4JGWeissman
You have only weak surface similarities, which break down if you look deeper. In the Christian concept, people need to be saved from the moral punishment for a sin committed before they were born, and this salvation is available only by accepting the religion, and it is absolutely morally right that those who do not accept the religion are not saved, on the authority of a supremely powerful being. The salvation consists of infinite boredom rather than infinite pain after you die. On the other hand, the concept of an FAI saving the world involves saving people from the harsh reality of an impersonal universe that does not care about us, or anything else. The salvation is for anyone it is in the FAI's power to save, the requirement of cryonics is only because even a superintelligence would likely not be able have enough information about a person to give them new life after their brain had decayed. If it turns out that the FAI can in fact simulate physics backwards well enough to retrieve such people, that would be a good thing. People who happen to be alive when the FAI goes FOOM will not be excluded because they aren't signed up for cryonics. The salvation consists of as much fun as we can get out of the universe, instead of non-existence after a short life. Lanier's argument, within the time you linked to, seemed to consist mostly of misusing the word ideology. Throughout the diavlog, he kept accusing AI researchers and Singularians of having a religion, but he never actually backed that up or even explained what he meant. While he seemed to be worshiping mystery, particularly with regards to consciousness, and was evasive when Eliezer questioned him on it.
rortian-30

I'm not so sure that this post is something I need to see. I was pointing out parallels in Eliezer's language to something you would hear from an evangelist.

If there is a specific point you'd like to discuss I'd be happy to do that.

5JGWeissman
You started this thread with a vague claim. If you want talk about specifics, you should quote something that Eliezer has said and explain what Christian overtones you think it has. Pointing to the word "saved" without any context is not enough.
rortian10

Thanks for the reply...the downvoting without it is sort of a bummer.

Notice I did not bring up the rapture...Eliezer does not really use similar language in that regard. Use of the word save though strikes me as more Christian though.

Fuckin' a on the god shaped hole stuff. I don't have much patience for people that put arguments forward like that.

4Nick_Tarleton
See Rapture of the Nerds, Not.
1thomblake
I think 'Christian' is overly specific. But you wouldn't be the first to compare the Singularity to 'Rapture' or some such, or to compare some of these folks to a cult. I think it would be worth everyone's time to make sure there isn't a "hole-shaped god" type effect going on here. ETA: But remember, If there are biased reasons to say the sun is shining, that doesn't make it dark out.
rortian-10

Why do you think there are only 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 or 8 or 12 or 42 or 248 or n spatial dimensions?

I think we have good reason to believe that we are in 3 spatial dimensions. But as you say:

The extra dimensions could likely not impact our system of physics in any way we can detect.

What exactly is the point of these dimensions? I see no reason to concede extra dimensions to make the fact that we are living in a simulation more probable.

rortian00

Wow, I really am curious why you think this would apply to spacial dimensions.

-6Kevin
rortian00

You are suggesting a world with much more energy then the one that we know. It seems you should assign a lower probability to there being a much higher energy universe.

0[anonymous]
By the zero one infinity rule, I also think it likely that there are infinite spacial dimensions. Just a few extra spacial dimensions should give you plenty of computing power to run a lower dimensional universe.
-2Kevin
By the zero one infinity rule, I also think it likely that there are infinite spacial dimensions. Just a few extra spacial dimensions should give you plenty of computing power to run a lower dimensional universe.
rortian-40

Look, when you are sure you are right everything confirms your belief.

Who are these 'neutral scientists'? When did climate scientists leave this class? What expert would just cede policy considerations to non-experts? I hope this class of people is a rare breed.

Climate science has obvious policy implications since CO2 is the problem.

Other sciences have had results that have clear policy implications. CFCs were bad. Marijuana is not that harmful. Cigarettes kill. Sometimes these results have helped develop good policy. Other times they were ignored.

Sayi... (read more)

4SilasBarta
Of course it does. Science is predicated on scientists practicing honestly. If scientists deliberately suppress disconfirmatory data, then peer review and reproducibility constraints won't mean anything. (And no I'm not addressing climatology here, just making a general point.) This does not mean you must assign a low probability to the science. It just means that this particular feature attenuates the odds you assign to it. Remember: The fact that a theory is good (high probability) does not mean everything about it must be evidence of its credibility!
2RHollerith
One of these is significantly less certain than the other two, IMHO.
rortian10

Just so we are clear: What do you think about climate science?

It is important to remember that most of its work was before it was political. Just because energy (mainly coal and oil) companies don't like the policy implications of climate science and are willing to pay lots of people to speak ill of it, shouldn't make it a politicized science. Indeed this would place evolutionary biology into the highly politicized science category.

Allowing a subject's ideological enemies to have a say in its status without having hard evidence is not rational at all.

3Jayson_Virissimo
"Just because energy (mainly coal and oil) companies don't like the policy implications of climate science and are willing to pay lots of people to speak ill of it, shouldn't make it a politicized science." It seems as though energy companies have an incentive to downplay science that provides justification for limiting CO2, but don't scientists with government funding have incentive to play up science that provides justification for an increase in government power? How could we find out the magnitude of there effects without actually understanding the research ourselves?
0SilasBarta
I replied to your point about evolutionary biology here.
2taw
You just confirm my point. The very fact that you use phrases like "policy implications of climate science", and "subject's ideological enemies" shows it's a highly politicized field. You wouldn't say "policy implications of quantum physics" or "chemistry's ideological enemies". In case you didn't follow Climategate, it look that scientists from East Anglia University engaged in politics a lot, including dirty politics; and they were nothing like neutral scientists merely seeking the truth and letting others deal with policy. You may find their actions warranted due to some greater good, or not, but it's not normal scientific practice, and I'd be willing to bet against pretty high rates that you would not find anything like that on any evolutionary biology department. That doesn't mean their findings are wrong. There are plenty of highly politicized issues where the mainstream is right or mostly right, but this rate is significantly lower than for non-politicized science. For example mainstream accounts of histories of most nations tend to be strongly whitewashed, as it's politically convenient. They are mostly accurate when it comes to events, but you can be fairly sure there are some systemic distortions. That's the reference class in which I put climate science - most likely right on main points, most likely with significant distortions, and with non-negligible chance of being entirely wrong. On the other hand the moment climate scientists switch from talking about climate to talking about policy or impact of climate change of human well-being, I estimate that they're almost certainly wrong. There is no reference class I can think of which suggests otherwise, and the closest reference class of Doomsday predictors has just this kind of track record. If you want some more, I did blog a bit about climate change recently: 1, 2, 3.
rortian20

Why you insist on being dogmatic on this is beyond me. In your writings on the subject, you admit you don't understand the math behind quantum mechanics, which is in fact the model. Why be so sure you are right about the interpretation of the model you don't understand?

People look kindly on those who are humble when commenting on things outside of their expertise. People that go around making bold claims about things about which they are not that knowledgeable are labeled cranks, and rightfully so.