All of sentientplatypus's Comments + Replies

The difference is that life, given an infinite amount of time also has an infinite amount of options for things one can do. There are enough things to do forever, the only question is whether the specific individual will keep thinking of things that they want to do. The crux of our disagreement seems to be that you think people would get bored with literally everything if they lived long enough and I think that most people would find something worthwhile in the infinite possibilities. But neither of us have lived very long (cosmically speaking) so it is di... (read more)

Why wouldn't living forever be just like any other scenario where a good thing is multiplied by infinity? The novelty would wear off just like chocolate or sex. Things are "good" because they are scarce. Never-ending anything would become a burden.

If I get tired of eating chocolate or having sex it is because I want to do something else. I can't really 'do' anything besides living (death isn't me doing something because I no longer exist). We are also programmed to only want a certain amount of sex and chocolate, but we are for the most part p... (read more)

1Brillyant
The "programmed" bit is where I see a problem. It's humans' ability to think and reason outside the replicator-level lizard brain urges that makes immortality problematic. We are able to recognize the fight to live, live to fight cycle of life. I don't think life in general is that different from any specific "good" thing—given enough time, the novelty will wear off. The option of immortality seems okay. Though it seems a bit arbitrary whether someone lives to 80 or 800 or 80 million. The more life = more utilons math never makes sense to me. I've always thought it was interesting to think what you would actually do with eternity... You could have kids...like 1,000 kids. And fall in love every week. And win Nobel Prizes in everything. And travel to the edge of the Universe. Or create your own Universe and be the God of it. Etc. Etc. There might be thousands of years of novelty in that. Maybe millions. But the returns are diminishing. Just think of all the amazing stuff we completely ignore and are bored with already.

More polite, but probably less accurate. I could be wrong, but it was a conscious decision to word it that way

Death is the occurrence of life being lost, the event has value insofar as the living being had value.

If one wants to continue to exist, getting rid of the state of nonexistence seems like a fairly reasonable goal for that person to pursue. I want to exist, regardless of the fact that nonexistence is itself painless.

I consider the loss of everything a person is to be 'bad' because I value the unique intricacies of each person. I attribute value there because I find that complexity mind-blowingly incredible. And I think it is sad when something so incredib... (read more)

1Brillyant
If you say so. Though I've yet to hear a compelling reason why this is so. The loss will never be experienced as a loss because death removes your ability to experience loss. The idea that life ending is an ongoing loss is some sort of bad opportunity cost calculation. This is perhaps just a novelty that would disappear given enough time. You are X years old; give it 1000X and see how you feel about the intricacies of the species or whatever else tickles your fascination bone. I see it to be an odd extrapolation of the adaptive will to survive. Lower animals want to live perpetually. They seem hardwired to just do survival things for the sake of survival. They don't ask why or stop to think about the Sisyphean absurdity of trying to survive forever. You, as a human, can consider this. And I think it's odd when you (and other humans) do not identify the absurdity. Why wouldn't living forever be just like any other scenario where a good thing is multiplied by infinity? The novelty would wear off just like chocolate or sex. Things are "good" because they are scarce. Never-ending anything would become a burden. My sense is the "lifeism" community at LW and elsewhere (those obsessed with cryonics, immortality, etc.) is simply making a bad calculation about the value of life based on some intuition gone haywire. It's a cognitive glitch where life = good, so life x infinity = good x infinity. The formula fails to recognize the inherent scarcity in goodness, as well as seeing the loss of life as paying out some ongoing residual opportunity cost for failing to achieve immortality. The one immortality scenario I think is difficult to argue against would be a perfect infinite wireheading scenario. If you could create a situation of perfect bliss and contentment for eternity, then I don't see a technical problem. It would, I think, require the participants to become unconscious to the reality of the scenario, but still. To the thread below: You're not being impolite. I th
0entirelyuseless
Most people want to live, and so because they want to live they want to avoid dying. But it would be more polite not to say things like "you don't actually have a reason for why you think you don't want to live forever," and just say "you don't have a reason not to want to live forever" or something similar.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone on here claim that biological immortality will fix all the problems of the world, just that reducing death is a good thing and that we should definitely do it if we can. Because the loss of the massive complexity that is a human being is really, really bad.

0Brillyant
No. Reducing death is not a good thing. Death is only the non-existence of consciousness. It's not possible to apply a value to it. It's not possible to compare it to life in any meaningful way. There is a (silly) conflation that goes on here between all the measurably bad things that accompany death and the process leading to death (sickness, fragility, grieving, etc.) and the state of being dead in itself. Getting rid of not existing is a strange goal. Why is this a bad thing?

I've asked quite a few people this question, even older people. I don't have wider statistics on it (maybe you do and if so I'd be interested in seeing them) but the people I ask very rarely say they would not like to live longer if they could stay young and be with their friends and families. I have even been told yes by some very religious people in their seventies.

5btrettel
I'm not convinced that revival of most cryopreserved people will ever be possible in any reasonable sense, even if we have strong AI. Brain damage sets in quickly, so to me you have to take it on faith that being preserved when they can is adequate. Add on a host of other things which you have to take on faith about the entire process, and it seems closer to a scam than the fountain of youth to me. The entire scheme seems to be wishful thinking. I find it hard to estimate the probabilities involved with this because it's so speculative. With that being said, I gave about a 2% chance of a cryopreserved human being revived before 2040, mostly because I don't know what the future holds. (Note that this prediction is fairly weak. This is a 2% probability that at least 1 human will be revived. If there are 100 attempts and 1 is a success then that's enough, but the track record would be pretty bad. I don't anticipate there will be many attempts by that date, though.) Assuming I would be revived if preserved, I don't see any reason to believe I'll come out unscathed. I would rather be not revived at all than to be revived severely mentally retarded, for example. With that being said, I'm not opposed to the idea and give it serious consideration, but I believe maximizing my own QALYs in more established ways like physical fitness is much more important. Also, it's worth noting that I don't believe immortality is necessarily a good goal in isolation. If I were immortal, I'd want my memory erased every couple hundred years or so just to keep things interesting (I assume if cryonics works then this is likely possible with no ill effects. Might also be possible to reverse wiping someone's memory if they store it somewhere.). I recently had the realization that cryo might actually have some unintended consequences. I can think of one which would need to be addressed before I'd sign up: risk compensation. That is, because one has signed up for cryo they might feel less risk a

I hadn't seen this before. Hanson's conception of intelligence actually seems much simpler and more plausible than how I had previously imagined it. I think 'intelligence' can easily act as a Semantic Stopsign because it feels like a singular entity through the experience of consciousness, but actually may be quite modular as Hanson suggests.

1roystgnr
Intelligence must be very modular - that's what drives Moravec's paradox (problems like vision and locomotion that we have good modules for feel "easy", problems that we have to solve with "general" intelligence feel "hard"), the Wason Selection task results (people don't always have a great "general logic" module even when they could easily solve an isomorphic problem applied to a specific context), etc. Does this greatly affect the AGI takeoff debate, though? So long as we can't create a module which is itself capable of creating modules, what we have doesn't qualify as human-equivalent AGI. But if/when we can, then it's likely that it can also create an improved version of itself, and so it's still an open question as to how fast or how far it can improve.

Wasn't the idea to not be sated until the end of the day and thus have a clearer head and be more productive? I'm not concerned about losing weight, which I have heard skipping dinner is pretty good for.

0polymathwannabe
Oh. We have different goals, then.

Same. I'm completely fine if I skip lunch though. I think I might try doing that regularly and see how it goes.

0polymathwannabe
In my experience, skipping dinner works better.

What if you put little electricity-generating windmills on top of an electric car. Could they produce enough electricity to help propel the car, or would the energy produced be counteracted by the drag added?

1Elo
look into perpetual motion machines and their disproof.
4Dagon
Pretty clearly the longitudinal wind would be more than canceled out by drag. You might be able to get some net power from any cross-wind that is present. But for that, you're better off with fixed windmills used to charge your battery.

A video seemed like the obvious solution to me as well, but with no memories I don't think you would know what to do with the blood or even understand why that would identify you. For that matter would someone with no memories be able to even understand the message? I guess we have to assume some procedural memory is kept, but even with that it could be a stretch to understand the message even if the words were remembered.

Trouble finding people smart enough that they could talk to and/or have a real relationship with (could refer to friend or romantic).

If I'm sad, this is probably why.

2Adam Zerner
It's a big thing for me too.

Not saying you should start drinking but almost no one likes the taste of alcohol the first time they try it.

3Richard_Kennaway
[pollid:863]
0Adam Zerner
Thanks for making that point. I didn't really know that. I'll take it into consideration.

I drink fairly regularly. It makes social gatherings more fun. I have some rules for drinking: only drink at social gatherings and only drink an amount that does not impair my ability to operate the next day.

1Elo
A healthy rule for limiting the chance of picking up alcoholism that builds on itself is to never drink alone. I have different opinions of the value of "now" and "tomorrow" in relative circumstances, (now is almost always worth more) so I can't really do the second one. (having said that, I don't drink much)

I think a good example of defeating the villain and not actually making things better can be seen in many of the Arab Spring revolutions, especially Egypt. It was the most stable country in the Middle East for decades, though it was ruled by a dictator. Egypt got rid of Mubarak, but the movement that did it had no kind of coherent plan for how they were going to create a stable democracy afterward. And now Egypt is a decidedly worse place to live than when Mubarak was in charge.

Could you elaborate on these or point to some place they are discussed? I'd like to learn more on those subjects, but aside from LW I don't see people using the phrase 'instrumental rationality' or even using the word rational to mean what it means here.

1) check that its locked, then write a reminder, note, etc in your phone that you locked it 2) If you say "That sounds really interesting, let me write that down so I remember to look it up later" that's not rude at all, its showing you're actually interested in what he's saying. 3)Put a giant yellow sign on the front that says 'check that I'm closed!' 4)If possible put it down on paper or in your phone. If not then make up a ridiculous story using the street names and turns, such that the non-sequitur helps you remember. 5) write up an outline o... (read more)

I may be missing something obvious, but what is the huge problem with releasing the logs?

CAE_Jones120

As I understand what EY has said, he's concerned that people will see a technique that worked, conclude that wouldn't possibly work on them, and go on believing the problem was solved and there was even less to worry about than before.

I think seeing, say, Tuxedage's victory and hearing that he only chose 8 out of 40 avenues for attack, and even botched one of those, could offset that concern somewhat, but eh.

ETA: well, and it might show the Gatekeeper and the AI player in circumstances that could be harmful to have published, since the AI kinda needs to suspend ethics and attack the gatekeeper psychologically, and there might be personal weaknesses of the Gatekeeper brought up.

I am basing my reasoning on the probable preferences of those involved, so my answer would depend on the feelings of the people to being dust specked/tortured.

I'm not entirely clear what exactly you are asking with number 1: are you just asking 1.6 seconds of torture vs. 3^^^3/ 1 billion dust specks? If so, I'm essentially indifferent, it seems like both are fairly inconsequential as long as the torture only causes pain for the 1.6 seconds.

For number 2, a billion dust specks would probably get to be fairly noticeable in succession, so I'd prefer to get 1.... (read more)

I just want to say thanks to everyone for your comments and I now realize the obvious flaw of incorporating any extremely personal connection into a mathematical morality calculation. Because, as BlueSun pointed out that causes problems on whatever scale of pain involved.

if you were faced with your Option 1: Save 400 Lives or Option 2: Save 500 Lives with 90% probability, would you seriously take option 2 if your loved ones were included in the 400? I wouldn't. Faced with statistical people I'd take option 2 every time. But make Option 1: Save 3 lives an

... (read more)
4ESRogs
I'm somewhat sympathetic to your position, but I'm curious: 1) Which side do you think you'd come down on if it were (3^^^3 / 1 billion) dust specks vs (50 / 1 billion) years (= 1.6 seconds) of torture? 2) How about the same (3^^^3 / 1 billion) dust specks and (50 / 1 billion) years of torture but the dust specks were divided among (3^^^3 / (billion^2)) people so that each received 1 billion dust specks? EDIT: I think these questions weren't very clear about what I was getting at. Eliezer's argument from Circular Altruism is along the lines of what I was going for, but much more well developed:

Whoops, I didn't notice the typo because I expected the misspell line.

1Arkanj3l
You just became stronger.

I've got Anki downloaded, but I haven't used it yet - I'll definitely give it a shot now. Not having to make cards before I can start studying makes getting myself to try a lot easier, thanks.

2ChristianKl
Actually probably not. Making your own cards is valuable when reading a text because it forces you to actually go into detail and investigate which information is in the text. Anki exists to prevent forgetting information that you learned. If you try to learn cards that contain information which you don't understand you will waste time.

This definitely sounds like something that would help me feel more active with my research, I'll have to try it, thanks!

Yeah, I haven't had a holiday or illness yet so I can't say in regards to that. I plan the tasks for a particular day from lists of longer term goals, such as goals for the summer currently, of course adding in other tasks as they come up. I try to decide how much to do by comparing how much I accomplish on a really good day and planning on doing about that much work, which has been effective so far.

I understand what you mean, and I'd suggest trying to keep different lists of time frames on which to accomplish your goals for free-time productivity so you know when you've done enough for a day. I'm usually able to guess reasonably accurately as to what I can accomplish in a given time frame though, as long as I stay motivated on a daily basis, which may be harder for others than it is for me.

On a daily level I try to think of about how productive I am on what I consider good days and try to equate that with what I'm working on any given day and plan t... (read more)

For two weeks I've been writing out a schedule for what I want to accomplish the next day before I go to bed, noting the time at which I intend to do something.

I'd give the technique a +9 so far as it has actually worked incredibly well for me in helping with my motivation problems, in fact in a couple days I felt more motivated to work than I can ever remember being before. I'm trying to change up my schedule and leave time for spontaneity to avoid having the plan become monotonous and it doesn't feel that way so far. And the results I'm getting are great... (read more)

0Swimmer963 (Miranda Dixon-Luinenburg)
I had quite a bad experience with this, but I think I'm permanently overcommitted, and often just don't have time to do everything that I want/feel an obligation to do–and often I can't tell the difference between "want to do X" and "feel obligated to do X". Also, I have the lucky trait that I can usually get work done on demand, even if I'm exhausted, but I tend to abuse this and think it means I can get work done nonstop all the time. Which I can't. I don't this this is a knockdown argument that this technique doesn't work for me. It might well work in a different form. I'm still trying various things for personal free-time productivity.

I hadn't seen that thread, I'll post there as well.

I thought the part right after Eliezer finds his notes was the best reply to the topic, and I particularly liked the smallpox comparison. Could have been better focused in general, as there was a lot of things that were a bit off track, but I feel it was worth watching on the whole.

Also the random flashes to Eliezer's facial expression while PZ is talking sent me into hysterics for some reason.

0Ben Pace
There was a weird ominous noise when that happened, twice!

I was thinking it would work as effectively because of the fire weakness thing and Harry shouldn't be magically depleted yet. Also it would be a lot safer than transfiguring sulfuric acid. Although it's possible the troll was enchanted to make it fire resistant and that Harry frankly didn't care whether he was violating the rules of transfiguration, and merely was worried about speed, but I'm inclined to think incendio would be faster.

2robryk
Or maybe it's not a good idea to cast incendio while the tip of your wand is in a very enclosed location (for instance due to gases that you expect to be released). Or it's maybe that that the transfiguration requires no wand movements (reference: look at the setup used during the partial transfiguration experiment) as opposed to incendio. It's pretty hard to move your wand in some pattern when it's stuck through a troll's eye socket.
4ikrase
1. The mana cost for incendio is probably much higher than a thin sheet of transfig. 2. I think that incendio simply forms a blowtorch or igntes the outside of objects. Weaponized partial transfig will ALWAYS be more powerful than first-year spells at a first-year mana supply. Partial transfig can slice things up, which is what Harry needed to do.

In the way I view Devil’s advocacy it is not at all about coming up with any argument against a proposition, but coming up with a legitimate one against a belief. “What if a time traveler threw a cake into the asteroid belt?” is not an argument anyone would use in a legitimate debate and likewise is one I would avoid if I was attempting to argue against my own beliefs. Arguing merely for the sake of arguing is indeed useless and irrational, but arguing to try to expose your belief’s weak points is rather extremely helpful.