All of Strange7's Comments + Replies

If what I'm saying what feel clear to you, you would ignore what I'm saying.

We're all empiricists here, so let's run an experiment. You've got this theory that gjm won't understand if you try to explain. How 'bout you stop rehashing that, actually try to explain some of those technical terms you mentioned earlier, and see how your theory holds up?

"at least those people working in the sweatshops aren't homeless"

Bizarrely enough there are many people who have jobs, yet cannot afford housing. Something about rising real estate prices.

A union makes sense when the workers have specialized interests, but for unskilled labor isn't it simpler just to work through the overarching government?

3V_V
The government represents different and competing interests, and it's often biased towards those of large corporations. A trade union of unskilled workers, instead, only represents the interests of unskilled workers.

Personally I would expect large corporations and the very rich to be capable of defending their position against any reasonably predictable shift in the economic environment, since they have resources and motivation to lay out more comprehensive contingency plans than anyone else. That extra productivity from "Job 2" doesn't just vanish into the aether. Higher minimum wage means the poorest people have more money, then they turn around and spend that money at Walmart.

The ones who lose out from a higher minimum wage would be the middle managers, w... (read more)

0James_Miller
Managers are more likely to abuse minimum wage workers the higher the minimum wage. At a higher minimum wage workers will value their jobs more and so will tolerate more abuse before quitting, and managers will value having the worker less because employing the worker is more costly.
1Nornagest
The poorest people do not directly benefit from minimum wage, because they don't have jobs. Many participants in the informal economy are also very poor. One option I didn't think of in the ancestor is that people pushed into the informal sector may still be showing up as employed in the sources being referenced: people making a lower-than-minimum-wage living as e.g. junk collectors are sometimes counted as such depending on methodology. We could pick out this effect by asking for personal earnings as well as employment status: if higher minimum wages are coming out of corporate margins somewhere, we'd expect average earnings (at least in the lower segment of the workforce) to go up, but we wouldn't expect that if it's pushing people into the informal sector. A survey would probably have to be carefully designed to have the resolution to pick this up, though.
0Lumifer
If you can formulate that claim sufficiently precisely to be falsifiable, it shouldn't be hard to test it.

This is an adequately accurate summary, though you may have missed the pun.

"Let's help everyone equally, or in proportion to their needs or something" is easier to agree on than "let's devote the entire GDP of Russia to my personal enjoyment, and maybe my friends and allies in proportion to their loyalty." With the former, people quibble over definitions and in-groups and details of implementation; the latter, even Putin dares not propose openly.

I'm not claiming that propensity to charity or altruism causes, or even particularly correlates with, economic development. I'm just saying that economic development i... (read more)

2Lumifer
No need to propose it openly and Putin does it openly enough -- and still gets 80%+ approval ratings :-/ So you are not insisting on the "get to live in that richer system and enjoy the benefits" claim? As a general claim, that's complicated. The main problems go by the name of "moral hazard" and "instilling dependency" and they are not just theoretical. I don't have links at hand, but I believe it was shown that, for example, massive shipments of used clothing from the West into Africa ("rather than throwing it into trash give it to someone who can use it") basically decimated the local clothing industry. I am not saying "never give anything to anyone", I'm saying that the situation is much more complicated than you make it look like and it's not hard to do more harm than good by giving out free goods.

Some combination of Social Security Disability payments, caring friends and family, private-sector charities, and hospital emergency rooms that aren't allowed to check for ability to pay before providing treatment. It's a bad system with a lot of cracks to fall through, and a distressing number of poor people suffer miserable pointless deaths.

Colonizing the galaxy is a political problem, not a question of engineering possibility. A sufficiently zealous world government could jump-start asteroid mining with an Orion Heavy Lifter, construct mirror arrays near the sun, and start lobbing around interstellar VNMs, all with relatively simple refinement and application of existing technologies. Problem is, the best way of putting a complete industrial base into orbit runs afoul of certain atmospheric nuclear test ban treaties.

Without a reactionless drive there's no point sending a colony ship faster than about 60% of the speed of light. Gotta save some remass to decelerate.

Strange7
-10

It's an investment.

When you have some asset that you don't immediately need, and somebody else would be able to make better use of it, renting it out or giving it away enriches the whole system. Then you get to live in that richer system and enjoy the benefits. Your quality of life is better when you live somewhere with reliable electricity, uncensored internet, and trivial access to potable water, right? A fancy car isn't much fun without fuel or decent roads.

Helping somebody on an altruistic basis is just another transfer of resources toward where they'... (read more)

1gjm
This is uncomfortably reminiscent of this Monty Python sketch.
1drethelin
a couple of obvious problems with this worldview 1: THIS IS NOT INVESTING. If there is no profit, if there is no business or outcome you're specifically getting paid to achieve, you have no guarantee of making the world better in any concrete way. When you invest in a factory, and that allows the factory to buy a new widget-maker which increases profits and pays you dividends, you are causally and concretely part of making the world a better place. When you give money to a hobo, no matter how sympathetic he looks or how convincing his cardboard sign is, maybe he's increasing his quality of life for the next 10 minutes by buying a sandwich, but he's NOT decreasing worldsuck in any systematic way. 1. "so just go ahead and solve all of them." This is moronic. Paying for bednets in Africa, the most obvious EA QALY maximizing frontrunner or whatever, has no impact on mercury in Lake Michigan! You have to pick and choose what you do because you CAN'T do everything.
5Lumifer
The "uncensored internet" part is going to be hard for places like UK and Australia, but anyway, you seem to be arguing that it is the propensity for charity (or altruism) which drives economic progress. Charitable populations live in rich systems and uncharitable ones continue to wallow in poverty. That's an... interesting viewpoint. Are you sure you thought it through? That doesn't seem to be true at all. Do you? Or you are so unfocused you solve none of them?

Pretend to be a radical environmentalist or something.

An explicit argument that lack of regulation would produce better results than the current regulatory system is not the same thing as disliking and actively opposing the current system yet having no idea what to replace it with.

Strange7
-10

I'm fully aware that there's more to nautical charts than the water's surface, and I used the term 'satellite photography' somewhat broadly. More of the deep ocean has been mapped by sensors in polar orbits, which can stay on-station indefinitely and cover the entire globe without regard for local obstacles, than ever was (or likely would have been) by surface craft and submarines.

2ChristianKl
To quote the National Ocean Service: In general water is an obstacle for satellites mapping deep ocean ground.

Henry George was looking at the labor market, and pointing out that you can't really understand the causes of large-scale unemployment, "the paralysis which produces dullness in all trades," without looking all the way back up the supply chain, if necessary to natural resources and how they're being used or prevented from use, until you find something necessary that's not being supplied. Can you find a counterexample to THAT claim, a cause for general unemployment which can't be traced back to a lack of supply?

027chaos
If by necessary you mean "in demand", then yes I agree, otherwise I don't know what you mean. You need to look at what products have unmet demand if you think the market's being prevented from reaching full employment. But examining supply chains from the ground up isn't a requirement for this, and actually no one understands the economy that well as it's computationally impossible. So we look at intermediate simplified components of the supply chain and at demand itself. There are times when looking at an extremely detailed picture is necessary, but I don't think that's always so. Two exceptions to this: 1. Governments can employ people to do jobs that aren't demanded by the market. 2. There might not be enough resources for people to do any work that's in demand. For example, if I am a farmer in a developing country and foreign food imports are priced lower than what my costs are, I will probably not be a farmer for much longer.
0[anonymous]
If by necessary you mean "in demand", then yes I agree, otherwise I don't know what you mean. You need to look at what products have unmet demand if you think the market's being prevented from reaching full employment. But examining supply chains from the ground up isn't a requirement for this, and actually no one understands the economy that well as it's computationally impossible. So we look at intermediate simplified components of the supply chain and at demand itself. There are times when looking at an extremely detailed picture is necessary, but I don't think that's always so. Two exceptions to this: 1. Governments can employ people to do jobs that aren't demanded by the market but help society. 2. There might not be enough resources for people to do any work that's in demand. To look at a small example, if I am a farmer in a developing country and foreign food imports are priced lower than what my costs are, I will probably not be a farmer for much longer.
0[anonymous]
If by necessary you mean "in demand", then yes I agree, otherwise I don't know what you mean. You need to look at what products have unmet demand if you think the market's being prevented from reaching full employment. But examining supply chains from the ground up isn't a requirement for this, and actually no one understands the economy that well as it's computationally impossible. So we look at intermediate simplified components of the supply chain and at demand itself. There are times when looking at an extremely detailed picture is necessary, but I don't think that's always so. Two exceptions to this: 1. Governments can employ people to do jobs that aren't demanded by the market but help society. 2. There might not be enough resources for people to do any work that's in demand. For example, if I am a farmer in a developing country and foreign food imports are priced lower than what my costs are, I will probably not be a farmer for much longer.

As far as literal charts of literal bodies of water on the surface of the earth, satelite photography actually has pretty much solved that problem.

As far as metaphorical waters, human civilization is larger than most people really think, and consists disproportionately of people finding and publishing answers to interesting questions. "Don't assume the waters are uncharted until you've done at least a cursory search for the charts" is sound advice.

9Lumifer
Ahem. Do you really think that a picture of water surface which looks pretty much the same anywhere is equivalent to a nautical chart? Proper nautical charts are very information-dense (take a look) and some of the more important bits refer to things underwater.

A poorly put together gun is perfectly capable of crippling the wielder, and most bombs light enough to throw won't reliably kill everyone in a room, especially a large room. Also, guns are harder to get right than bombs. That's why, in military history, hand grenades and land mines came first, then muskets, then rifles, instead of just better and better grenades. That's why the saying is "every Marine is a rifleman" and not "every Marine is a grenadier."

A well-made Friendly AI would translate human knowledge and intent into precise, m... (read more)

Strange7
-10

Just to make completely sure I understand you here... you went looking for something that's not a natural resource underlying major economic issues, but could still affect those issues, and the best answer you could come up with was the sun ? The local star, that gigantic nuclear furnace whose radiant energy is the source of power for all photosynthetic life on earth, excepting maybe some geothermal-powered grow-lights in Greenland or something. That sun, that's the one you're referring to?

If solar energy flux abruptly changed by even one percent, up or do... (read more)

027chaos
Supply is defined as that which is produced by human beings, not that which is made of physical matter. Otherwise, saying that demand only responds to changes in supply would fail to constrain our expectations any more than the laws of physics do. But we're pursuing a different level of analysis when we engage economic questions. You are looking at aspects of my example that are irrelevant to my argument. My point is that human decisions and innovations are not the only factors behind changes in demand. Whether or not we restrict our analysis to the ice cream market alone, the point stands that demand would be changed if the Sun's behavior changed and thus we need to look at things other than changes to supply if we want to accurately predict changes in demand.
0[anonymous]
Supply is defined as that which is produced by human beings, not that which is made of physical matter. Scarcity is the word referring to limitation of resources, not supply. You're intentionally looking at aspects of my example that are irrelevant to the point I was making. My point is that human decisions and innovations are not the only factors that change demand. Whether or not we restrict our analysis to the ice cream market alone, the point stands.

There might be an 'extinct in the wild, building up a viable breeding population in captivity' situation, though.

1Capla
That doesn't sound to bad. It's just humans livign as humans have.

So start with a quick sweep for functional-looking knives, followed by pieces of armor that look like they'd cover your skull or torso without falling off. No point to armor if it fails to protect you, or hampers your movements enough that you'll be taking more hits from lost capacity to dodge than the armor can soak up.

If the walls don't seem to have closed in much by the time you've got all that located and equipped, think about the junk you've already searched through. Optimistically, you may by this time have located several instances of the same model... (read more)

Alright, so you bring this alleged time traveler with you to visit two or three different psychologists, all of whom are appropriately surprised by the whole 'time travel' thing but agree that you seem to be perceiving and processing the facts of the situation accurately.

Furthermore you have a lot of expensive tests run on the health and functionality of your brain, and all of the results turn out within normal limits. Camera-phone videos of the initial arrival are posted to the internet and after millions of views nobody can credibly figure out how it cou... (read more)

1faul_sname
Then I accept that there's a time traveler. The evidence in this second situation is quite a bit stronger than a personal observation, and would probably be enough to convince me.

If you've been fooled, there's still no point to calling it impossible, given that you're trying to find out what actually happened.

2CCC
Hmmm. If you were to tell me, for example, that you had seen a man flying through the air like Superman, then I think I could reasonably call that "impossible" and conclude that you were lying. (If I happened to be in Metropolis at the time, then I might soon be proven wrong - nonetheless, the conclusion that you are lying is significantly more probable than the conclusion that someone has suddenly developed the power of flight). On the other hand... if you were to hold an object, and then let go, and that object were to fall up instead of down, then calling that "impossible" would be useless; I have seen the object fall up, I can see it there on the roof, I can walk under it. (And it is, indeed, not impossible; the object could be a helium balloon, or you might have concealed a powerful magnet in the roof and used a metal object). ...hmmm. I think the difference here is that in the first case, the thing has not clearly happened; I merely have an eyewitness report, which is easily forged, to say that it took place. In the second case, I have far more data to show that the object really did fall upwards, and I can even (perhaps with the aid of a ladder) retrieve the object and drop it myself, confirming that it continues to fall upwards; it has clearly happened, calling it "impossible" is indeed futile, and the only question is how.

with democracy acting like a smokescreen for the voters - to give them an illusion of control, and to prevent them from revolting.

Voting prevents revolts in the same sense that a hydroelectric dam prevents floods. It's not a matter of stopping up the revolutionary urge; in fact, any attempt to do so would be disastrous sooner or later. Instead it provides a safe, easy channel, and in the process, captures all the power of the movement before that flow can build up enough to cause damage.

The voters can have whatever they want, and the rest of the system does it's best to stop them from wanting anything dangerous.

Let's say you're about to walk into a room that contains an unknown number of hostile people who possibly have guns. You don't have much of a choice about which way you're going, given that the "room" you're currently in is really more of an active garbage compactor, but you do have a lot of military-grade garbage to pick through. Do you don some armor, grab a knife, or try to assemble a working gun of your own?

Trick question. Given adequate time and resources, you do all three. In this metaphor, the room outside is the future, enemy soldiers are... (read more)

0Capla
No. AI isn't a gun; it's a bomb. If you don't know what you're doing, or even just make a mistake, you blow yourself up. But if it works, you lob it out the door and completly solve your problem.
0Lumifer
That's the iffy part.

I'm saying the control systems on the plane constitute an artificial intelligence, advanced enough to do almost all the work of flying the plane but not general enough to do anything unrelated to flying the plane, and (at issue) not friendly enough to tell the pilots "this is likely just a little ice clog, in which case you don't need to do anything" or, later in the catastrophe, "the single most important part of stall recovery is bringing the plane's nose back down," let alone override their panicky incompetence outright and act on such simple suggestions itself.

Suppose there's only a limited demand for the goods produced and the other company uses technology that lets it fewer workers than the first one did.

"Labor-saving" innovations are simply increases in efficiency. If the new process allows more of the same (or equivalent) goods to be produced with less inputs, the price will drop and demand will increase. Significantly lower cost might even open up completely new applications for the goods.

027chaos
I think I need to start over. Give me a while to think.

My objection is to the 'set amount.' What about the Bunny Ears Lawyer trope, where someone purchases additional weirdness points with a track record of outstanding competence?

-1VAuroch
The Bunny Ears Lawyer trope is one of those ones that never shows up in real life.

The neighbor is possibly going to attack... why? Maybe because they want something you have, that they could seize by killing you? Such as your land? The term "lebensraum" comes to mind.

Communist ideology, likewise, exists to promote communist political policies, which have a number of major differences from capitalist (or, say, monarchist) policies when it comes to how natural resources should be exploited on industrial scales and how the products of that industry should be directed. Workers controlling the means of production, and so on.

As for ... (read more)

I'm not saying that someone making the "understand when you're older" argument is being dishonest. They might not even be incorrect. It's just that, if that's the best case they can come up with, even after thinking it over, you're probably better off making your decision on some basis other than their opinion.

9dxu
In addition, experience should be transferable; in other words, if you think there's some "experience" to be had that will convince me that I'm wrong about something, you should be able to convey the details of such an experience (as well as why you think the experience would be convincing) to me directly, e.g. Quirrell's conversation with Hermione: Quirrell didn't just say, "Oh, you'll change your mind later when you experience life a bit more" (although he has done that to Harry sometimes); he actually laid out the details of the argument. That's not to say he was right, but at least his argument is a lot more convincing than just a naked claim that "you'll change your mind with experience". In other words, any time someone makes the experience argument and is able to do so in a legitimate manner, he/she should also be able to give a fairly concise summary of the experience as well as why it should be convincing to his/her opponent. Ideally, then, no one should make the experience argument at all, because every time someone does so, either (a) the argument is illegitimate or (b) there's a better argument readily available that should be used instead. Because of this, if someone makes the experience argument to me without an accompanying summary, then it immediately tells me that he/she is just using it as a semantic stopsign and is not arguing in good faith. This in turn leads me to get out of the conversation rather quickly, if possible.

It's not that there aren't any people whose unsupported assertion is more trustworthy than an explicit, persuasive-sounding argument for the opposite side, though certainly individuals of such discernment and integrity are rare. The issue is that any person so reliable would also necessarily have enough underlying intelligence to be able to, in any situation not involving implausibly extreme levels of time pressure, construct a better (or at least more contextually specific) argument than "you'll understand when you're older." The only plausible explanation for being so vague is if they not only don't want to tell you, but are further trying not to provide enough keywords for you to look up the real reason yourself.

6lmm
I'm a professional computer programmer, a field founded on logic and reason. I've been doing it for a while, and am, if I say so myself, pretty good at it. I still find myself frequently hitting places where the best argument I can make for a particular decision is "this feels intuitively like decision x and decision y, and those were the correct choices in those cases, therefore I think this is the correct decision too." And very often that's right. My understanding of the evidence is that within specific fields, experts in that field develop intuitions that really can yield better decisionmaking than conscious reason. Logically, doesn't it seem like this would be true of living in general?
127chaos
Excellent point, thanks a bunch for supplying it. That makes a lot of sense to me.
7ike
I'm slightly less cynical; I think they usually do in fact genuinely believe that you'll change your mind and agree with them many years later. The people I've seen this with tend not to be good at putting feelings into words. By the way, I'd love to see someone steelman the experience argument (but am too lazy to do myself). Anyone up for it?

Superior competitors don't tend to cause widespread unemployment, though. People just go work for the company that's on the rise.

As for uncertainty about a coming war... he's saying that it all comes back to natural resources, access to land, and sure enough that tends to be what wars are about.

227chaos
Okay, thought things through. Not every change in material resources is a change in supply. For example, the rate at which the Sun burns energy is not controlled by humans, nor was it even known to us in the past. However, the Sun's energy can effect demand nonetheless - for example, ice cream might become more popular if the sun heats up.. Thus the sun is a counterexample to the claim that changes in demand are all the result of changes in supply. You might claim that the change in (quantity of) ice cream demanded is actually the consequence of increased ice cream production. That is true in the sense that if no more ice cream was produced then no more ice cream would be purchased. But we can also ask what caused the company to choose to increase production, and the clear answer is that the company thought the demand for ice cream would increase as a consequence of the heat wave. If there was no anticipation of increased demand due to external reasons, the ice cream company would not increase production and thus would miss out on potential profit.
0[anonymous]
Okay, thought things through. Not every change in material resources is a change in supply. For example, the rate at which the Sun burns energy is not controlled by humans, nor was it even known to us in the past. However, the Sun's energy can effect demand nonetheless - for example, ice cream might become more popular if the sun heats up.. Thus the sun is a counterexample to the claim that changes in demand are all the result of changes in supply. You might claim that the change in ice cream demanded is actually the consequence of increased ice cream production. That is true in the sense that if no more ice cream was produced then no more ice cream would be purchased. But we can also ask what caused the company to choose to increase production, and the clear answer is that the company increased production because they thought the demand for ice cream would increase. Heat itself is meaningless except in its anticipated consequence for demand, therefore the counterexample is valid. If there was no anticipation of increased demand due to external reasons, the company would not increase their production and would miss out on potential profit.
0[anonymous]
Okay, thought things through. Not every change in material resources is a change in supply. For example, the rate at which the Sun burns energy is not controlled by humans, nor even known to us. However, the Sun's energy will effect demand nonetheless - ice cream will become more popular if the sun heats up, and it will be purchased more often. Thus the sun is a counterexample to the claim that changes in demand are all the result of changes in supply. You might claim that the change in ice cream demanded is actually the consequence of increased ice cream production. That is true in the sense that if no more ice cream was produced then no more ice cream would be consumed. But we can also ask what caused the company to choose to increase production, and the clear answer is that the company increased production because they thought the demand for ice cream would increase. Heat itself is meaningless except in its anticipated consequence for demand, therefore the counterexample is valid.
127chaos
I don't think it's this simple. Suppose skills are nontransferable. Suppose the other company is in a different country. Suppose there's only a limited demand for the goods produced and the other company uses technology that lets it fewer workers than the first one did. None of these seem to have anything to do with supply shortages. Not exactly. Wars are about a lot of things, like fear one will be attacked by a neighbor or the desire to stop Communist ideology. The claim that every war is at root an issue of natural resources is only defensible if you make it extremely complex and thus impossible to falsify. Additionally, like I said before, that kind of situation is less about insufficient supply and more about living under conditions of scarcity which no economy can avoid.
0[anonymous]
I don't think it's this simple. Suppose skills are nontransferable. Suppose the other company is in a different country. Suppose there's only a limited demand for the goods produced and the other company uses technology that lets it fewer workers than the first one did. None of these seem to have anything to do with supply shortages. Not exactly. Wars are about a lot of things, like fear one will be attacked by a neighbor or the desire to stop Communist ideology. The claim that every war is at root an issue of natural resources is only defensible if you make it extremely complex and thus impossible to falsify. Additionally, like I said before, that kind of situation is less about insufficient supply and more about living under conditions of scarcity which no economy can avoid.
0[anonymous]
I don't think it's this simple. Suppose skills are nontransferable. Suppose the other company is in a different country. Suppose there's only a limited demand for the goods produced and the other company uses technology that lets it fewer workers than the first one did. Not exactly. Wars are about a lot of things, like fear one will be attacked by a neighbor or the desire to stop Communist ideology. The claim that every war is at root an issue of natural resources is only defensible if you make it extremely complex and thus impossible to falsify. Additionally, like I said before, that kind of situation is less about insufficient supply and more about living under conditions of scarcity which no economy can avoid.
0[anonymous]
I don't think it's this simple. Suppose skills are nontransferable. Suppose the other company is in a different country. Suppose there's only a limited demand for the goods produced and the other company can thus higher fewer workers than the first one did. Not exactly. Wars are about a lot of things, like fear one will be attacked by a neighbor or the desire to stop Communist ideology. The claim that every war is at root an issue of natural resources is only defensible if you make it extremely complex and thus impossible to falsify. Additionally, like I said before, that kind of situation is less about insufficient supply and more about living under conditions of scarcity which no economy can avoid.
0[anonymous]
I don't know think it's this simple. Suppose skills are nontransferable. Suppose the other company is in a different country. Suppose there's only a limited demand for the goods produced and the other company can thus higher fewer workers than the first one did. Not exactly. Wars are about a lot of things, like fear one will be attacked by a neighbor or the desire to stop Communist ideology. The claim that every war is at root an issue of natural resources is only defensible if you make it extremely complex and thus impossible to falsify. Additionally, like I said before, that kind of situation is less about insufficient supply and more about living under conditions of scarcity which no economy can avoid.

Homeownership makes employees less willing to relocate, but also more tolerant of short-term decreases in the demand for their skills, since they can postpone maintenance on a house (or perform it inefficiently themselves with the surplus time) more safely than they can miss rent payments to a landlord.

"Haha, no, of course I don't believe in monkeys transforming into humans! That'd never work. I just think they diverged from a common ancestor, many hundreds of thousands of years ago. Surely you're aware of the differences between, say, sunni and shia islam, despite both believing that all the same prophets said all the same things, and splitting only a few hundred years back? To say nothing of the other Abrahamic religions.

Think of a living organism as being like a city, with cells like individual households, each keeping their own copy of DNA scrip... (read more)

1momom2
Hum, in this analogy, it seems likely that she could answer : "Your analogy is correct in that these groups are no more similar to mine that a monkey is similar to a human. Your analogy is incorrect in that my group is fundamentally different in origin to the other groups. The word/ intent [depending on the confession] of God does not change."

Nobody believes that....

I cannot recall any instance of a claim in that format turning out to be correct.

Parrots can talk; a parrot named Alex even accidentally learned how to spell out a word for emphasis when the listener didn't seem to be paying attention. Pre-curse, this "snake" wasn't crawling around on the ground. Maybe it was just a slightly cleverer species of parrot.

4Eli Tyre
That sounds awesome. Citation?
[anonymous]130

You could say they died of insufficient friendly AGI, but not from an AGI that was insufficiently friendly.

If there was some non-negligible probability that the study was bad, RationalWiki would, given their dislike for chiropractics, have seized upon that and discussed it explicitly, would they not?

2Jiro
They describe the Cochrane study as "weak evidence" that chiropractic is as effective as other therapy. This implicitly includes some non-negligible probability that the benefit is less than the study seems to say it is.
Strange7
390

Marriage to Kim Kardashian is not contagious.

As far as we know! Perhaps it simply has a long incubation period, and transitive polyamory will be legally recognized some time in the 2020s.

0Luke_A_Somers
Hmm. Will I become a Mormon before or after I am married to Kim Kardashian?

It's only a No True Scotsman if you can point to an actual citizen of Scotland who doesn't meet the 'true Scotsman' standard.

You are conflating two claims here. One is that chiropractic is more expensive than conventional treatments for lower back pain, and the other is that chiropractic is less effective than conventional treatments for lower back pain. What support do you have for the latter claim?

0Jiro
I covered that:

You just borrow more.

And/or authorize the police to steal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asset_forfeiture

0Lumifer
It works best if you let the cops keep part of their robbery hauls :-/

You haven't made an argument that indirect funding is the best way to go

On this point we are in agreement. I'm not making any assertions about what the absolute best way is to fund research.

and you've made baseless claims.

Please be more specific.

There's nothing to respond to: the burden of proof is on anyone who claims that bizarrely indirect mechanisms through flawed actors

All humans are flawed. Were you perhaps under the impression that research grant applications get approved or denied by a gleaming crystalline logic-engine handed down to us... (read more)

'Breakthroughs and basic science' seem to be running in to diminishing returns lately. As a policy matter, I think we (human civilization) should focus more on applying what we already know about the basics, to do what we're already doing more efficiently.

I didn't say it was the only effective funding mechanism. I didn't say it was the best. Please respond to the argument I actually made.

1gwern
You haven't made an argument that indirect funding is the best way to go and you've made baseless claims. There's nothing to respond to: the burden of proof is on anyone who claims that bizarrely indirect mechanisms through flawed actors with considerable incentive to overstate efficacy and do said indirect mechanism (suppose funding the Apollo Project was an almost complete waste of money compared to the normal grant process; would NASA ever under any circumstances admit this?) is the best or even a good way to go compared to directly incentivizing the goal through contests or grants.

"Modern-day best-practices industrial engineering works pretty well at it's stated goals, and motivates theoretical progress as a result of subgoals" is not a particularly controversial claim. If you think there's a way to do more with less, or somehow immunize the market for pure research against adverse selection due to frauds and crackpots, feel free to prove it.

-2Lumifer
"works pretty well" is not a controversial claim, but "motivates theoretical progress" is more iffy. Offhand, I would say that it motivates incremental progress and applied aspects. I don't think it motivates attempts at breakthroughs and basic science.
0gwern
I disagree. I don't think there's any consensus on this. The success of prizes/contests for motivating research shows that grand follies like the Concorde or Apollo project are far from the only effective funding mechanism, and most of the arguments for grand follies come from those with highly vested interests in them or conflicts of interest - the US government and affiliated academics are certainly happy to make 'the Tang argument' but I don't see why one would trust them.

if you want research, buy research

Focusing money too closely on the research itself runs the risk that you'll end up paying for a lot of hot air dressed up to look like research. Cool-but-useless real-world applications are the costly signalling mechanism which demonstrates an underlying theory's validity to nonspecialists. You can't fly to the moon by tacking more and more epicycles onto the crystalline-sphere theory of celestial mechanics.

0gwern
If you want to fly to the moon, buy flying to the moon. X-prizes etc. You still haven't shown that indirect mechanisms which happen to coincide with the status quo are the optimal way of achieving goals.

why did evolution build us to place fundamental emotional and normative value on conforming to what any rational selfish agent will figure out?

If you're running some calculation involving a lot of logarithms, and portable electronics haven't been invented yet, would you rather take a week to derive the exact answer with an abacus, and another three weeks hunting down a boneheaded sign error, or ten seconds for the first two or three decimal places on a slide rule?

Rational selfishness is expensive to set up, expensive to run, and can break down catastrophically at the worst possible times. Evolution tends to prefer error-tolerant systems.

problems other than math and science problems

No such thing.

For any given problem, once a possible solution is reached, do you expect to be able to check that solution against reality with further observations? If so, you have constructed a theory with experimental implications, and are doing Science. If not, you have derived the truth, falsehood, or invalidity of a particular statement from a core set of axioms, and are doing Math.

Would it have fit into less space than the set of possible programs for the Z80?

-2johnlawrenceaspden
That is a great point! I am grudgingly prepared to concede that sets are smaller than their power sets.

For the play money iterations, that assumption would not hold.

Why not? People can get pretty competitive even when there's nothing really at stake, and current-iteration play money is a proxy for future-iteration real money.

Thank you! If I was the other clone and heard that I was about to play a game of PD which would have no consequences for anyone except the other player, who was also me, that would distort my incentives.

Strange7
-10

fighting the hypothetical

It's established in the problem statement that the experimenter is going to destroy or falsify all records of what transpired during the game, including the fact that a game even took place, presumably to rule out cooperation motivated by reputational effects. If you want a perfectly honest and trustworthy experimenter, establish that axiomatically, or at least don't establish anything that directly contradicts.

Assuming that the other party is a clone with identical starting mind-state makes it a much more tractable problem. I don't have much idea how perfect reasoners behave; I've never met one.

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