All of Tim Freeman's Comments + Replies

It is unreasonable to expect an output from biological evolution to do something reasonable in a situation vastly different from the situations it evolved in. In this case, you aren't going to learn much from the state of mind of a human who has been tortured more than his ancestors could have been tortured.

Trying to extract guidance from that story seems like an example of generalizing from fiction.

I'm not sure how the rest of the article is connected to the fiction at the beginning. Given that people tend to generalize from fiction and get to false concl... (read more)

1yams
This may be an example, but I don't think it's an especially central one, for a few reasons: 1. The linked essay discusses, quite narrowly, the act of making predictions about artificial intelligence/the Actual Future based on the contents of science fiction stories that make (more-or-less) concrete predictions on those topics, thus smuggling in a series of warrants that poison the reasoning process from that point onward. This post, by contrast, is about feelings. 2. The process for reasoning about one's, say, existential disposition, is independent of the process for reasoning regarding the technical details of AI doom. Respective solutions-spaces for the question "How do I deal with this present-tense emotional experience?" and "How do I deal with this future-tense socio-technical possibility?" are quite different. While they may feed into each other (in the case, for instance, of someone who's decided they must self-soothe and level out before addressing the technical problem that's staring them down or, conversely, someone who's decided the most effective anxiety treatment is direct material action regarding the object of anxiety), they're otherwise quite independent. It's useful to use a somewhat different (part of your)self to read the Star Wars Extended Universe than you would use to read, i.e., recent AI Safety papers. 3. One principle use of fiction is to open a window into aspects of experience that the reader might not otherwise access. Most directly, fiction can help to empathize with people who are very different from you, or help you come to grips with the fact that other people in fact exist at all. It can also show you things you might not otherwise see, and impart tools for seeing in new and exciting ways. I think reading The Logical Fallacy of Generalization from Fictional Evidence as totally invalidating insights from fiction is a mistake, particularly because the work itself closes with a quote from a work of fiction (which I take as pretty s
5Raemon
Certainly seems a reasonable worry. My angle here is "this obviously doesn't tell you anything about what humans can or should do when they are being maximally tortured. But it is inspirational the way stories can often be in a way that is more about making something feel like a visceral possibility, which didn't previously feel like a visceral possibility." And then, the concrete details that follow are true (well, the metastrategy one is "true" in that "this is why I'm doing it this way", it doesn't really go into "but how well does it work actually?".  The thing I would encourage you to do is at least consider, in various difficult circumstances, whether you can actually just shut up and do the impossible, and imagine what it'd look like to succeed. And then concretely visualize the impossible-seeming plan and whatever your best alternative is, and decide between them as best you can. 

My reading of the EMDR section was that the patient had panic attacks, did EMDR, then had a panic attack, and then either the patient ran out of money or it was time to write the paper, so we don't know about the presence or absence of panic attacks after that.

On rereading that section, it is clear that there is no claimed period of time when the patient was observed not to have a panic attack during that period of time. The last panic attack was labelled as "mild". I didn't bother to read back to see if any of the other panic attacks were "mild" before success was declared.

There is such a thing as a symptom pool. Some people who are having a difficult time instinctively acquire symptoms that are fashionable and signal their difficulty, but the symptoms are not related to the actual problem. The prototypical example for this, IIRC, is incidence of anorexia in some specific country (Hong Kong?). An anorexia awareness campaign caused that symptom to become fashionable and increased the apparent incidence much more than can be explained as an increased ability to observe the cases that were present before.

This applies to some b... (read more)

I would not categorize you as Christian. In my conversations with Christians, the unifying themes have been:

  • God is good
  • Heaven exists as a desirable place to go after you die.
  • Jesus exists and has some significant role in getting you into Heaven.

You didn't mention Heaven at all and you seem to regard Jesus as another iteration in the general improvement of moral examples instead of as someone special.

I don't mean to imply that there is any reason for me to regard you as Christian. I'm just a little surprised, or maybe I have misunderstood you.

But to ge... (read more)

4Jim Pivarski
I understand the softness of categories, and I don't mind that you would use the available data to not put me in the Christian box. Some things that you don't see are that I engage in Catholic practices, like going to mass (which is precisely why I canned an earlier draft and I'm writing again now). If I gave the impression that Jesus is an iteration in general improvement of morality, then I mischaracterized my belief and my community's: we believe that Jesus is God—whatever that means. I have to add the "whatever that means" because it seems like a doctrine that deliberately confounds logic, like the bit about Buddha here, when paired with Christians' transcendent notion of God. If we thought of gods as giants who lived on Mt. Olympus, then one of them becoming physical like Zeus-the-swan wouldn't be a problem, but we go out of our way to describe God as being more like Plato's Zeus, which is everything that a limited, embodied, human being isn't. Catholics emphasize saints as evidence of continuing improvement, and the apostles are often portrayed as not understanding what was happening, but Jesus (and Mary) are untouchable. On the other hand, I look at stories like Matthew 15:27, in which a Canaanite woman appears to teach Jesus about tolerance—at the beginning of the story, it seems like he didn't know. Most people I talk to say that it was like Socratic questioning—he really did know—but maybe the divine part of him is that he caught on and accepted the correction? While God-as-hypostatic perfection can't learn and improve (being outside of time), God-as-a-human being can and this is what it looks like? That sort of consideration is in the "whatever that means" phrase I used above. Okay, now on the point about not mentioning heaven: not many people that I know do. Whereas I had to clarify that we follow the Jesus-is-God doctrine—quite heavily, it's a frequent topic—I usually only hear about heaven at funerals. While I'm sure that the people around me believ

If you are Catholic, or remember being Catholic, and you're here, maybe you can explain something for me.

How do you reconcile God's benevolence and omnipotence with His communication patterns? Specifically: I assume you believe that the Good News was delivered at one specific place and time in the world, and then allowed to spread by natural means. God could have given everyone decent evidence that Jesus existed and was important, and God could have spread that information by some reliable means. I could imagine a trickster God playing games with an important message like that, but the Christian God is assumed to be good, not a trickster. How do you deal with this?

4Jim Pivarski
I'm still Catholic. I was answering your question and it got long, so I moved it to a post: Answer to a question: what do I think about God's communication patterns?

In response to "The real problem is humanity's lack of rationalist skills. We have bad epistemology, bad meta-ethics, and we don't update our beliefs based on evidence.":

Another missing rationalist skill is having some sensible way to decide who to trust. This is necessary because there isn't time to be rational about all topics. At best you can dig at the truth of a few important issues and trust friends to give you accurate beliefs about the rest. This failure has many ramifications:

  • The SBF/FTX fiasco.
  • I quit LessWrong for some years in part because th
... (read more)

>if you won't accept 1 pepper for 1 mushroom, then you should accept 2 mushrooms for 1 pepper

You need a bunch more assumptions for this to hold, and I would like to know what they are. For example: If I don't have or want any mushrooms, and nobody I know wants mushrooms, then I can't accept 1 pepper for 1 mushroom because I can't pay the mushroom. But it still doesn't make any sense for me to accept two mushrooms for one pepper either because I don't have any use for two mushrooms. To get intuition about this, replace "mushroom" with something that is b... (read more)

Found a different, perhaps better explanation: salt intake leads to temporary weight gain from water. Restaurant food is salty. https://youtu.be/j314amPw4RQ 42:30

2Elizabeth
That explains noise but at the time I had almost no variation and then sudden drops. I was also consistently high salt, and I expect the salt effect has a ceiling.

I tend to have itchy eyes. An optometrist suggested "derm dry eye relief mask" by eyeeco. Heat it in the microwave 20 seconds or so and then lay down with this lump of warm stuff on your eyes for 10 minutes until it isn't warm anymore. Gently rub once afterward.

This seems to help and I do it fairly reliably.

The theory is that there are glands on your eyelids that secrete some magic substance that makes your eyes dry out slower. Those glands get clogged up if you stare at a computer screen and don't blink enough. Rubbing at them does a poor job of removing ... (read more)

3Dambi
Yeah warm compresses are nice and I guess I recommend them as well, especially for relief when symptoms are severe. They are a bit of a hassle though so I recommend looking for other solutions.   The best product for compress that I have found: https://www.thea-pharmaceuticals.co.uk/products/blephasteam It gently steams your eyes, so it makes them both warm and moist. I think I do recommend some form of moisture when you do warm compresses.  

In response to "how so?": If this catches on, you can sell a drug by infiltrating the forum and posting fake news of miracle cures under many different names.

For schemes like this to work, you need some way of guessing who trusts whom. The spammers might claim to trust each other, and you never really know who the spammers are. The best you can hope for is for the real people to get good information from other real people they trust, and the spammers get garbage information from other spammers but that doesn't matter because they are spammers.

I don't know of any implementations of this.

I read the book before reading this review. I have recently had success with the Conference Therapy technique they describe, so I highly recommend the book.

I actually started reading the book, rage-quit in the middle, then came back to it years later and found it useful. I rage-quit because the section on EMDR was about a patient with panic attacks, EMDR was done, and afterward the patient still had panic attacks but they claimed the treatment was a success anyway. Any sensible interpretation would call this failure. So at least one of the authors does mot... (read more)

2Kaj_Sotala
Cool! Huh, I didn't remember this from my read. Searching for "panic attacks" in my copy now, there's the story of Susan who got EMDR for panic attacks, but my copy seems to say she only had one single panic attack after the treatment and after that they stopped for good? Is that the section you mean? Can you say more about solving the problem multiple times? Is it maybe partially explainable by the same schema having been stored in the context of many different situations with each of those needing to be reconsolidated separately (something that the authors do mention), or being based on multiple different experiences that need to all be addressed before the symptom goes away entirely?  My reading is that "symptom" means something that disrupts a person's life enough that they seek therapy for it - if there wasn't anything that they experienced as a problem, they probably wouldn't come to therapy in the first place. So I interpret "symptom" to suggest that some of the beliefs are disruptive, even if not necessarily false. I don't remember whether this was in UtEB, but Coherence Therapy: Practice Manual & Training Guide explains the concept of a purposeless symptom that's the byproduct of something with more function. An example they give is a belief that a person needs to hide from the world, which limits their ability to act so much that they become depressed. In that case, the depression is a symptom, but it's based on a correct belief that the person is currently unable to do things that would get them what they want. Of course, it's true that the methodology presupposes that there's some incorrect belief in the client's system. Otherwise there wouldn't be anything for memory reconsolidation to fix, and those beliefs are somehow linked to the symptom. But I don't read that as contradicting the claim that when you start investigating, you're not going to know exactly which one of the client's learnings are true and which ones are false. Hmm that makes sense

In response to: "I don’t understand why or how weight-loss-that-is-definitely-not-changes-in-water-retention comes in chunks. If you have an answer I’m quite curious."

I too have observed that this happens. I read somewhere that if you lose fat, it is a few cells losing all of the fat instead of many cells each losing a little bit of the fat. The empty fat cells fill with water and your weight stays approximately constant. After there are enough empty fat cells that have been empty long enough, some of them do apoptosis and you pee out the water and you lose weight then.

I don't remember where I read it.

3Elizabeth
I read a similar thing on Reddit repeating something the author's trainer said once. I have almost zero confidence in this explanation and it's also the best I've found

Does the discriminator get access to the symbolic representation of f, or just its behavior?

If the discriminator only gets access to the behavior of f, I might have a solution. Define g(y,z) = 1 if y = y * z, 0 otherwise. So g(y,z) is 1 if z is 1 or y is 0, which is two different mechanisms.

Pick some way to encode two numbers into one, so we have a one to one mapping E between pairs (y,z) and numbers x. Define f1(x) = g(E(x)).

Now pick a cryptographic hash H that might as well be sha256 except some fresh algorithm not known to the discriminator or guessable... (read more)

2paulfchristiano
We're imagining that the discriminator gets to see the computation done by f---the tricky part of the Fermat test is that even if you see the computation of an(modn) you still can't figure out whether the number was prime or Carmichael. We are also hoping the discriminator will be no harder to learn than f, and so e.g. if gradient descent bakes some tricky secret into f then we are happy baking the same secret secret into the discriminator (and this is why obfuscated circuits aren't a counterexample).

Eby hasn't updated his blog https://thinkingthingsdone.com/ in 10 years. He didn't even put a post there describing his wonderful next job or project, or his wonderful retirement. He is posting to Twitter, so he's not dead.

If his advice worked for him, he wouldn't be in that situation.

2sovran
That's an old blog, he's currently active on https://members.themindhackersguild.com/ and https://theeffortlessway.com/