All of vallinder's Comments + Replies

I don't think it's fair to say that "nobody understood induction in any kind of rigorous way until about 1968." The linked paper argues that Solomonoff prediction does not justify Occam's razor, but rather that it gives us a specific inductive assumption. And such inductive assumptions had previously been rigorously studied by Carnap among others.

But even if we grant that assumption, I don't see why we should find it surprising that science made progress without having a rigorous understanding of induction. In general, successfully engaging in so... (read more)

Non-cognitivism strictly speaking doesn't imply the orthogonality thesis. For instance, one could consistently hold that increased intelligence leads to a convergence of the relevant non-cognitive attitudes. Admittedly, such a position appears implausible, which might explain the fact (if it is a fact) that non-cognitivists are more prone to accept the orthogonality thesis.

I don't think Sweden is significantly more transhumanist than several other western European countries. The fact that two influential transhumanists (Bostrom and Sandberg) are Swedish could be due to chance. Once they became known, they may have attracted a disproportionate number of Swedes to adopt similar views, but that number is still trivial compared to the population as a whole. In fact, it could be that the general egalitarian sentiment makes Swedes less likely to accept certain transhumanist positions (even though that sentiment is arguably weaker today than it was a few decades ago).

0joaolkf
I would have thought the there were a Bostrom-Sandberg effect, specially since Sweden doesn't have such a big population. However, by looking at the WVS graphic it's hard to say rational self-expressing values wouldn't be expected to correlate with transhuman values. But, yes, probably the egalitarian sentiment would be a factor against transhumanism, I've heard transhumanists there complaining about that. Thank you for your input, you were the first to present a counterevidence to my assumption. Those things might be more valuable than you think in this case.

You can prove everything from a contradiction, but you can't prove everything from a false premise. I take it that you mean that we can derive a contradiction from the assumption of moral realism. That may be true (although I'd hesitate to call either moral realism or free will logically impossible), but I doubt many arguments from moral realism to other claims (e.g. the denial of the orthogonality thesis) rely on the derivation of a contradiction as an intermediate step.

4DanArmak
Correction accepted, thanks. (Will edit original comment.) I'm unsure about it now. I really did confuse contradictions and false beliefs. "Free will" means something different to everyone who talks about it. Some versions I've seen are definitely logically incoherent. Others are logically possible and are merely very complex theories with zero evidence for them that are retrofitted to formalize traditional human beliefs. "Moral realism" is weirder. It seems to claim that, in the world of all moral claims, some are true and some are false. But since there are no universally compelling arguments, we don't know - we can't know - if we ourselves are even capable of recognizing, or being convinced by, the true moral claims if we were to encounter them. So it postulates some additional property of moral facts (truth) which isn't observable by anyone, and so does no predictive work. And it necessarily has nothing to do with the moral claims that we (or any other minds) actually do believe, and the reasons we believe in them.

If moral realism is simply the view that some positive moral claims are true, without further metaphysical or conceptual commitments, then I can't see how it could be at odds with the orthogonality thesis. In itself, that view doesn't entail anything about the relation between intelligence levels and goals.

On the other hand, the conjunction of moral realism, motivational judgment internalism (i.e. the view that moral judgments necessarily motivate), and the assumption that a sufficiently intelligent agent would grasp at least some moral truths is at odds with the orthogonality thesis. Other combinations of views may yield similar results.

4torekp
This - paragraph two sentence one - is the answer to the OP question, and I'm sad to see that it only has 4 points after my up-vote.
4Gunnar_Zarncke
I think: Do 'moral judgments necessarily motivate'? Is the key question here. [pollid:576]
3DanArmak
This is a bit of a tangent. But to someone like myself who thinks that moral realism is not just wrong but logically impossible - rather like other confused notions such as free will - the assumption of moral realism might lead anywhere. Just as you can prove anything from a false premise, so a moral realist who tries to decompartmentalize that belief and update on it could end up holding other false beliefs. ETA: this is wrong, and thanks to vallinder for the correction. You can prove anything from a contradiction, but not necessarily from a false premise. However, it's still bad for you to believe strongly in false things.

I'm not familiar with his writings on the foundations of quantum mechanics, but in addition to his work on causality, the three volumes on measurement he co-authored have also been hugely influential. His intellectual autobiography (pdf) might be worth a look.

Well, I hope you're in Oxford soon again, João! :)

0joaolkf
aah, it's you! :) We might indeed go for a fika sometime in the near future then. I wonder if you were following the Swedish-transhumanism-FHI squabble on my last post.
0joaolkf
I would buy a modapuccino¹ if we lived in a 100km radius! 1. Modafinil's version of a cappuccino
0lukeprog
Yes! Less Wrong, please give vallinder extra karma, for identifying the more ambiguous cartoon dude. :)
0joaolkf
I think you might have finally got it. I hope so at least, this google image madness has to stop.

Some might find it more convenient to set this up as a Google Form.

0Pablo
Indeed, this is what I have done myself (prior to reading your comment). In case it is of help to anyone, here's the form I use. Just make sure to make a copy of the file on your own Drive account (if you use my form, you won't be able to access the responses).

Just came across the book Behavior Modification in Applied Settings, which I don't think has been mentioned on Less Wrong previously. I haven't had a chance to read it yet, but it looks like it could be useful for those of us interested in boosting productivity and personal effectiveness.

Not sure whether I do think otherwise. But if Luke had written "smarter-than-human machine intelligence" instead, I probably wouldn't have reacted. In comparison, "machine superintelligence singleton" is much more specific, indicating both (i) that the machine intelligence will be vastly smarter than us, and (ii) that multipolar outcomes are very unlikely. Though perhaps there are very convincing arguments for both of these claims.

a machine superintelligence singleton is largely inevitable

So do you think that while we can't be very confident about when AI will be created, we can still be quite confident that it will be created?

0diegocaleiro
Aron, what makes you think otherwise?

...yes? This seems like a quite reasonable epistemic state.

There's a Swedish word for this, "problemformuleringsprivilegiet," which roughly translates as "the privilege to formulate the problem."

Which is basically the same phrase, but without spaces between words.

Indeed, my point was rather that if Scanian is included, so should ten or so other accents as well.

Being from southern Sweden myself, I was also quite amused to see that Scanian – which is really just an accent – is marked as a separate language.

0ThrustVectoring
The difference between languages and accents is largely a manner of degree. The boundary lines are completely arbitrary. You can pair mutually intelligible modes of speech together in a chain and have non-mutually-intelligible ends of the chain.

A few points:

  1. This year, spring has been much colder in most European countries than it typically is.
  2. FHI folks are not very representative: the fact that many of them spend late nights and weekends at the office isn't particularly strong evidence that other folks in the UK and in countries with a similar climate do the same.

Indeed, even this quote is way below 140 characters :-)

By the way, you're off by a year: the February 2013 thread is here.

0lukeprog
oops

This was a fun read. Reminds me of Terry Bisson's "They're made out of meat."

Thanks, Brian. I know this is your position, I'm wondering if it's benthamite's as well.

Knowing that you've abandoned moral realism, how would you respond to someone making an analogous argument about preferences or duties? For instance, "When a preference of mine is frustrated, I come to see this as a state of affairs that ought not to exist," or "When someone violates a duty, I come to see this as a state of affairs that ought not to exist." Granted, the acquaintance may not be as direct as in the case of intense suffering. But is that enough to single out pleasure and suffering?

6Utilitarian
Preventing suffering is what I care about, and I'm going to try to convince other people to care about it. One way to do that is to invent plausible thought experiments / intuition pumps for why it matters so much. If I do, that might help with evangelism, but it's not the (original) reason why I care about it. I care about it because of experience with suffering in my own life, feeling strong empathy when seeing it in others, and feeling that preventing suffering is overridingly important due to various other factors in my development.

I find the title a bit confusing. To me it seems a better one would be "Outline of Possible Sources of Knowledge of Values." Or am I misunderstanding you?

I am curious about the qualifier "pre-1980." Do you think later work in these disciplines is noticeably better?

1magfrump
Plenty of fields (like cognitive science, linguistics, mathematical causality) don't seem to have had many or most of their seminal works published until after the 1980's; also the 1980's marked a huge increase in the availability of computers and networking, which is a huge boon to scientific research. These are just guesses from the top of my head and glances at wikipedia, but also having born in the 80s I'm probably biased.

"pre-1980" = "pre-lukeprog", and thus, the ancient days

(kidding)

"What Would AIXI Do With Infinite Computing Power and a Halting Oracle?"

Is this problem well-posed? Doesn't the answer depend completely on the reward function?

The folly of mistaking a paradox for a discovery, a metaphor for a proof, a torrent of verbiage for a spring of capital truths, and oneself for an oracle, is inborn in us.

Paul Valéry

You could estimate the amount of time spent procrastinating. If you're at a computer, RescueTime or similar software might help you do that. You could also try to count how often you feel like procrastinating, and how often you actually do procrastinate. Of course, this might be tricky to do accurately.

1ChrisHallquist
Just installed Rescue Time, looks like an awesome program.
1ChrisHallquist
That would require some way to quantify progress. Thoughts on how to do that?

Among all hypotheses consistent with the observations, the simplest is the most likely.

I think this statement of Occam's razor is slightly misleading. The principle says that you should prefer the simplest hypothesis, but doesn't say why. As seen in the SEP entry on simplicity, there have been several different proposed justifications.

Also, if I understand Solomonoff induction correctly, the reason for preferring simpler hypotheses is not that such theories are a priori more likely to be true, but rather that using Solomonoff's universal prior means tha... (read more)

Sorry, I didn't realize you had to create an account there. I've now uploaded the file to Rapidshare here.

0lukeprog
Thanks!
1lukeprog
Thanks, but... Why upload it to a site that requires me to create an account to download the file? Why not just upload it to Rapidshare or one of a thousand other filesharing sites?

I live in Lund, but will hopefully be able to join you!

This seems like a great way of moving forward. I would certainly enter.

What do you estimate a paper written in this way would cost, in total?

This recent edited volume might be of interest.

Enoch (2005) argues that idealization is problematic for subjectivist theories:

The reading of the watch tracks the time—which is independent of it—only when all goes well, the perceptual impression tracks relative height—which is independent of this perception—only when all goes well. So there is reason to make sure—by idealizing—that all does go well. But had we taken the other Euthyphronic alternative regarding these matters things would have been very different. Had the time depended on the reading of my watch, had the reading of my watch made certain

... (read more)

In some instances, I use citations for pointing to relevant studies, without intending to imply that this is settled science. But I now realize that it does carry that implication, and that the wording of the sentence is particularly unfortunate. I have updated the first and other footnotes to take this into account.

By "thinks is fine", I didn't mean some arbitrary personal standard, but precisely the kind of epistemic abilities that you mention.

I understand your revision and thank you for pointing in out, so I can keep trying harder.

Oops, looks like I didn't do my proof-reading carefully enough. Thanks for spotting that.

I also got a vague feeling they weren't identical. Perhaps I should mention that in the original post.

Thanks for the pointer!

Sorry about that. I've now added all the PDFs I found. At the moment I'm unable to host the ones that are still missing, but it might be worth investing in.

Oops, looks like I accidentally cited Peters 1978 when I meant to cite a paper that article pointed me to. Fixed now.

I have read at least abstracts of all cited articles, which the authors of the paper you link to seem to think is fine:

we adopt a much more generous view of a “reader” of a cited paper, as someone who at the very least consulted a >trusted source (e.g., the original paper or heavily-used and authenticated databases) inputting together the citation list.

Most of my remarks about form still stand, and I'm stil very uncomfortable with your updated citation (Evans 1971).

Citation form functions here as a rhetorical device. I mean this as in "dark arts" rhetorical: its intent is to make a non-academic publication look more like an academic publication. The subtext is "look how well researched my claims are", or perhaps more generously "this is settled science".

What happens if we rewrite your claim, erasing the academic form, and reinstating the context?

What you write expands to the... (read more)

Thanks for this. I have now included links to all fulltexts I found online. If you or anyone else manage to find the ones I'm still lacking, please point me to them and I'll update the post again.

2erratio
I believe that both gwern and lukeprog will host articles if you ask them nicely. If you can't get them online at all, I can get almost all the journal articles using my university connection. Can't help you with the book chapters though. (Relatedly: why do so many psych researchers not host their own papers/chapters? I don't usually have this much trouble in my own research)

There are a couple of similar-sounding footnotes in the preface and the first chapter, but I'm unable to find this particular one.

-1Larks
Ahhh, I may have mis-remembered. I'm away from the faculty library at the moment so can't easily check.

Unfortunately, the Kripke footnote appears to be a joke only.

2Larks
Nope, it's near the beginning of Naming and Necessity. I got the copy-paste from the internet, but first came accross it while writing an essay on definite descriptions.

By "well known", I suppose I just meant listed among the 503 tools here.

I use Eternity to keep track of time use, and Lemon to keep track of expenses. Judging by my interactions with the Quantified Self community, neither app seems too well known.

3wedrifid
Based on your interactions with the Quantified Self community what apps are well known?

For those interested, the CMU philosophy department organizes an annual summer school in logic and formal epistemology.

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