Vulkanodox's Shortform
May 6, 20211
Vulkanodox
-2
1
15
Where have I claimed that everyone was nice?
your whole argument is based on the flaw that you trust people to vote correctly (however correct is defined). Or in other words, you trust that people are nice from your perspective.
The only way to prove conclusively that something could be improved upon is to suggest an improvement.
now we move from objectivism to what is good. The complete opposite.
Levitating would be better and that is the objective truth.
Breathing pollutants is bad and that is the objective truth.
A forum with no voting has less to no censorship and that is the objective truth.
"a design which didn't suck" comes down to a whole lot of subjective factors.... (read more)
No reason, or any reason? These two statements seem to contradict one another?
no reasoning as in people do not have to lay out a logical proof why it was given.
any reason as in people vote based on emotions not just objectivity
still, it comes down to you thinking and hoping that everybody is nice. Which is a flaw. You have no argument against my statement other than "it is probably not that bad because people are nice, I think"
which is not an argument and has nothing to do with objectivity.
Ah yes, I love that usual "argument":
"why don't you do it better?" "nobody is stopping you from doing it yourself" "if you think it is bad you have to bring up ways to make it better"
completely irrelevant to discuss a critique. I'm pretty sure there is a name for such replies but I don't remember it.
I already replied to that. Peer review is not ideal but far better than a voting system as it is implemented in forums.
Both bring censorship.
Voting should be changed because censorship is damaging to objective discussion.
Should voting be removed with no replacement to ensure quality and order in a forum? no. and I have never claimed that.
With blind peer review I also don't know who votes whether my paper gets accepted. In both cases I have a broad idea.
again with the "peer review is not good so voting can be bad too"
I already made a statement. Voting based on a random group of people that can vote without giving any reasoning does not result in objective voting. And this in return censors content.
Now you try to say that this is not that much of a problem because people who are "good" have more influence on the vote. But how is it decided who is good and should have more influence? By them getting votes. It is a... (read more)
you on purpose ignore the point that you do not know who votes.
you assume and hope that everybody is nice and votes based on objective reasoning only
you also ignore that I say that there should be another system or a changed voting system to ensure quality.
I say that you do not know what random people vote and your argument that they probably vote good is completely flawed.
And for the karma system that has some really bad implications too. Somebody with more Karma has even more power to censor.
You just shift it away from new visitors to older visitors.
How is it decided who is a good visitor and who is not? It is based on votes. It is a loop that does not work.
If my argument is that votes do not work then you can not argue against it with a system that uses votes as its basis.
So because peer review is not that good a voting system can also be not that good?
I fail to see your point arguing about a voting system creating censorship and thus it should be considered to be removed or at least changed from what is used nowadays in every forum.
Your arguments just outline that the peer review system in scientific communities is not ideal and also imposes censorship.
And still, it is by far better than a voting system in a forum. Sure in papers you might not have the perfect peer to find every error but in a voting system on a forum, you do not need to have any legitimation, qualification, or reasoning to cast your vote.
If 50% of studies by professionals have so many errors, how good is a rating by random people online?
Wrong or harmful content should be removed or labeled but voting is not good for that.
that's a lot of if and when.
it does not matter what scenarios you bring up, an upvote or downvote has no reasoning.
Sure people might use it to categorize a false claim as bad which would be helpful.
But people can also use it to downvote based on their personal beliefs.
You can not prove either. Anybody can make a vote for any reason that the person has.
you can not prove if a vote has a beneficial effect or a negative one.
I can take 10 of my friends and downvote every one of your new posts and nobody will ever see them again.
A vote is anonymous, available to everybody, and can be done with good... (read more)
I disagree with you on "good" content, though. On the very basic level, there's stuff I like (and would like to like, and so on), and stuff I don't like (or whose disliking I'd endorse, and so on). I realize other people are similar to that, and will respect their recommendations (e.g. LessWrong upvotes). This "liking" already includes stuff from different viewpoints – anarchist and communization writings, social choice theory and deleuze etc.
I see the reason but current voting systems will censor content that you do not like which is harmful to have objective discussions.
... (read more)And while I don't know how you organise your social interactions, I (mostly subconsciously) perform a lot of
again this all loops around to trusting a group of people to vote correctly.
How you define the group of people and what is correct is irrelevant.
I can agree that there should be sites where you can share things you like purely based on beliefs and personal opinions of you and a group of people.
For a forum aimed at objective discussion, voting is counterproductive, at least in the way voting is implemented in any forum nowadays.
Aim for rational reasoning and truth, yet anybody can vote based on personal beliefs and emotions to bury the truth.
And again, downvoting to keep objectively bad content away like a post that is not fitting for the category would be reasonable yet no voting system reflects that.
Forums should not have a voting system
Any kind of upvotes or downvotes create censoring, be it intentionally or by the nature of how we think.
Intentionally:
Front pages, top, trending, etc. hide posts that are low rated. Rating a post then becomes a tool for censorship as a person might make an objectively true argument but gets downvoted because of prejudice against the arguer.
by nature:
seeing a post that is voted low makes people skip over it or from the beginning rule it out as wrong or bad even if the argument is true.
Imagine this as an IRL version. When a person speaks you see their "score" that other people assign to them. People that have lower "score" are quieter and filtered away for you. If you say anything that people don't like they will rate you negatively and thus lowering your voice.
well no, if there would be an explanation for a plothole it would not be a plothole.