All of Will_Newsome's Comments + Replies

Note that I was totally correct, and the two of you were totally wrong

hahahaha

haaaaaaaaaaaahahahahaha

"Almost everyone found politics to be tribal and viscerally upsetting."

This is gold.

Good sociology yo, good sardonicism without sneering, best article I've seen about this subculture yet.

Anyone from Orange County attending? If so, could I get a ride?

If there is evidence for X in MOR and/or canon then it’s fine to post about X without rot13, even if you also have heard privately from Eliezer that X is true. But you should not post that “Eliezer said X is true” unless you use rot13.

Oh, I guess I can post this then: V jnf ng n jrqqvat cnegl guvat n srj lrnef onpx jurer Ryvrmre pbasvezrq gung lbh pna'g yvr va Cnefrygbathr; gur engvbanyr tvira jnf gung Fnynmne jvfurq gb sbfgre pbbeqvangvba orgjrra uvf urvef. V'z abg 100% fher V'z erzrzorevat pbeerpgyl ohg V'z cerggl fher.

0Gvaerg
I'm wondering what Salazar would make of Bane's Rule of Two

This is also such a delicious example of the Streisand effect...

Yes, Eliezer's Streisanding is almost suspiciously delicious. One begins to wonder if he is in thrall to... well, perhaps it is best not to speculate here, lest we feed the Adversary.

4Dahlen
There.
Kawoomba120

Hanlon's Beard.

Dat irony tho.

Is there anything we should do?

Stylistic complaint: "we"? I don't think me reading your post means you and I are a "we". This is a public-facing website, your audience isn't your club.

As to the actual question, CellBioGuy's answer is spot-on.

Out of my last hundred or so comments only one currently sits at a karma score below zero (it's at -1 and I retracted it). Considering how many of my comments are (sometimes harshly) critical of LessWrong I think it is quite clear that LW is capable of accepting and reinforcing reasonable criticism.

Actually, I had to give up 5 karma to comment on this thread because Eliezer's comment has incurred the so-called troll toll. Hell, I'll upvote Eliezer just so your comment isn't needlessly hidden.

Is this some wierd signalling thing, where the appearance that something is really something else is more important than the actuality of it?

I think so, yeah. I don't know whether it's reasonable or not but that's what it is. I might be wrong.

Okay, I'm probably never going to actually get very far into my fanfic, so:

The story starts as stereotypical postmodern fare, but it is soon revealed that behind the seemingly postmodern metaphysic there is a Berkeleyan-Leibnizian simulationist metaphysic where programs are only indirectly interacting with other programs despite seeming to share a world, a la Leibniz' monadology. Conflicts then occur between character programs with different levels of measure in different simulations of the author's mind, where the author (me) is basically just a medium f... (read more)

-1MrMind
Yeah, it's not ambitious at all :) I've never understood the fascination of authors to put themselves as the main character of a story: what drives an interesting story is hard conflict, it's like they're desiring to have a shitty life.

Because if it is possible for an administrator to reset a password, then it is possible for an administrator to log on to a particular account.

Yes, it's technically possible, but actually doing it would be a rather severe breach of privacy...

6mwengler
SO we can state that we do not have the technology to stop a banned user from downvoting posts, and we don't have the technology to reverse banned downvotes. But we do actually have the technology, it is just considered a "severe breach of privacy" to employ it? And so we have to pretend that accomplishing the identical result by some hacky code into the database to get the same effect on the database is any more or less a breach of privacy, even though it is (potentially) bit-wise identical to just using the simple technology of logging on as the user who's account needsd adjusting, and changing the banned user's password so he can't use the account he is banned from? Is this some wierd signalling thing, where the appearance that something is really something else is more important than the actuality of it?
3mwengler
Is it not possible for an administrator to reset a user's password? Would that be insane? If not, what happens when somebody forgets their password, is the account just dead in the water? Because if it is possible for an administrator to reset a password, then it is possible for an administrator to log on to a particular account.

I suspect Nesov in particular would put forth and uphold relatively fair-minded, non-ideological, and straightforward rules for deletion, and so Phyg points would be held to an acceptable level. But Nesov is somewhat singular in that regard. If Eliezer or other similarly ideological moderators tried to ride Nesov's coattails then Phyg points would naturally shoot through the roof.

I vote Nesov for LessWrong Dictator.

I think that as an alternative to permitting deletion of posts, it would be better to give an x10 downvote hammer (in addition to the normal one; and perhaps only for posts) to all users with Karma 10000

I currently have 8,448 karma. I could reach 10,000 in a few weeks if I so desired. I don't imagine many here would want me to have a downvote hammer. Still, this general category of solutions is good.

3atorm
Part of me wants to just glimpse that world for a little while.

Sweet! Wish I'd read that earlier, now I feel like to some extent I'm just retreading known ground. Although I do intend to go in a somewhat different direction. Not sure yet when and where to put the plot twists though.

Right, this was the intended meaning. Being a character in a book is one thing, but talking to another character who suggests that you're the titular protagonist of a supposedly well-known book is another. I was also trying to suggest that the owl is in some sense from a different world. But I guess that was all unclear and I need to rewrite it.

I'm sorry. Although a lot of what you've said is pointlessly mean you did give a bit of useful feedback and my response should have just focused on that.

You're right, I shouldn't have been mean. My issue is that unlike others whose criticism I really do value Tenoke has mostly just been bashing shit. But still he did point out that my past few sentences are legitimately unclear and so I shouldn't have responded how I did. Your downvote is fair. Mea culpa.

Out of curiosity, what happened that made you change your comment? (and later delete it)

The first time I decided I wasn't being rude enough. The second time I decided that I was being too rude.

Mind projection fallacy?

Only partially. Unlike you, I have periods where I can actually think clearly.

[This comment is no longer endorsed by its author]Reply
3Tenoke
Man, are you touchy.

The same reason there is a law against vigilante justice. In many individual cases it's probably ethically justified but I certainly support a general rule against it. Because I don't trust the judgement of all those other f@#$s so take the cooperative mutual suppression of the behavior as the best option.

This is a strong point and perhaps I was undervaluing it. But I wonder why 'not having sockpuppets' stands out as a rule that's so important to uphold and start talking about banning in the name of. It doesn't seem to have actually caused many problems... (read more)

1wedrifid
Problem enough.

That makes sense; to be honest, I generally don't have a high opinion of narratives and mostly view them as excuses for authors to write about characters and settings and spew insights and jokes. (I also mean this in the metaphorical post-structuralist sense.) This might be why my fiction is so much worse than my nonfiction writing.

This isn't the should-world. LessWrong is irrevocably a cesspit. The stupid shit will continue to flow. So no, I do not agree with the decision, unless someone like Vladimir_Nesov gets to ban all the stupid shit, which will never happen. Arbitrarily banning my stupid shit in particular just means Eliezer making a fool of himself. There is no sympathetic magic to it that will change the equilibrium.

He almost certainly has or had fake accounts at various times.

I did. I barely used them, and haven't in a long time. I don't see why that is banworthy or even against community norms; my other accounts all have positive karma and good upvote/downvote ratios, and with one minor exception I used them for the obvious non-antisocial reasons. IIRC you accused me of being TillNoonsome et al, which is false; the real person behind those accounts offered to reveal their identity to clear my name, but I declined, 'cuz at that point there wasn't really any need f... (read more)

wedrifid150

I don't see why that is banworthy or even against community norms; my other accounts all have positive karma and good upvote/downvote ratios, and I used them for the obvious non-antisocial reasons.

The same reason there is a law against vigilante justice. In many individual cases it's probably ethically justified but I certainly support a general rule against it. Because I don't trust the judgement of all those other f@#$s so take the cooperative mutual suppression of the behavior as the best option.

The appropriate response to willfully ignoring a rule t... (read more)

Hey guys, so, I'm dumb and am continuing to attempt to write fiction. I figured I would post an excerpt first this time so people can point out glaring problems before I post anything to Discussion. I've changed some of the premise (as can be seen most obviously in the title); mostly I'm moving away from LessWrong-parody and toward self-parody, mostly because Eliezer's followers are really whiny and it was distracting from the actual ideas I was trying to convey. The premise is now less disingenuous about its basically being a self-insert fic. Also I've tr... (read more)

2Kawoomba
This comment might interest you. (Placeholder for usual self-deprecating disclaimers; linked comment was written in (insert barely-realistic low time estimate), yada yada.)
0MrMind
This is order of magnitude more readable than the previous chapter, I applaude this. I have to second though a critique by Tenoke: when Harry says "What, am I a book now?" it feels inconsistent, because he already had guessed that he was in a book. Characters that know they are in a book are ok (think Sophie by Gaarder), characters that have amnesia every paragraph are not. But I am curious to read some more.
-2Tenoke
Uhm, no, he knew to talk to the owl because it started talking and winking to him first. EDIT: Ah, it was the letter that talked first, not the owl, my bad. I'll leave my comment as it is, so you don't look as crazy with your reply to me. Didn't he just realize, that he is in a fanfic a few minutes ago? I mean, I just don't get why would you decide to convey the message of your movement through a postmodernist work. How do you even know that anyone else uses the same definition of postrationality as yourself, when you employ multiple techniques to be as vague as possible when talking about it? Also don't complain that your fiction writing sucks, when you are writing in styles that your public (and most people) are not fond of.
8palladias
I'd recommend writing five or so chapters and then posting a link. The fic as you're posting it just feels meta for the sake of meta (charitably, because your narrative is still winding up). I'd be more likely to read/upvote if plot were already happening.

Thanks for the criticism, you're the first person to give me useful advice. Honestly you probably put more effort into writing this comment than I put into writing my chapter. I really appreciate it. I'll keep a tab open for this comment next time I attempt to write some fiction.

4Halfwitz
I think "P!=NPC" would have been better.
9eggman
You're welcome.

Try re-writing later? As the saying goes, "Write drunk; edit sober."

That's what I did, actually. Maybe I should write sober too. But that Kentucky bourbon was just so inspiring.

6mwengler
People who hate it cite your claim that you wrote it drunk as an issue. People who liked it 1) don't care how it came into being 2) are impressed that alcohol has a different impact on you than on them 3) believe your claims to be drunk are exaggerated. I personally believe all three.

For what it's worth I would love if LessWrong stuck to only decision theory, microeconomics, cognitive science, &c; I'd lurk and do what I could to maintain the relatively high standards of quality that LessWrong used to have. But look at how User:badger's excellent sequence on mechanism design went basically ignored compared to all the stupid shit that gets upvoted. I posted what I did because LessWrong has mostly been a signaling and self-help cesspit for years now and I thought my post would quietly attract a few readers who enjoyed it while those who didn't would just downvote and move on. Pissing in a swimming pool is immoral, but I'm pissing in an ocean here.

3hydkyll
So, now that you know the reason why your post was removed, do you agree with the decision? It seems that you're generally in favor of removing "stupid shit that gets upvoted". (And your post wouldn't even have been needed to be removed if you had hosted it at fanfiction.net and posted the link in an open thread.)

I've never upvoted my own posts with sockpuppets. In fact I barely vote at all. Of course I can't be sure someone else didn't use their own sockpuppets to upvote my post multiple times.

For what it's worth my fanfic was gonna draw a lot of inspiration from Worm and Pact. Wildbow at least explicitly puts forth metaphysics to partially explain the narrative causality. Maybe Eliezer will get around to it too when the mechanics of Prophecy are explained. His Finale of the Ultimate Meta Mega Crossover is great in that regard.

1Gvaerg
And that was the final piece of the puzzle in getting me to read Worm. Off I go!

/shrugs. I know I'm biased and all but I didn't think it was that terrible. I spent like two hours editing it before posting. People sure are being mean about it though, so idk. I guess maybe I'll give up on trying to improve my fiction writing skill for now... Maybe it's a 'you have it or you don't' thing.

3Tenoke
If it makes you feel any better, Eliezer's April 1st fiction post wasn't accepted well, and was deleted in the end as well. At any rate, you had some clever things in there, but it was mostly too vague and random to convey your point much further than telling us that you have some sort of a criticism. I do not believe this to be the case, based on having seen some people's improvements over time, but I have not researched this.
1Desrtopa
Well, there are definitely a lot of people who're bad enough that I'd write off the idea of trying to give them advice as hopeless. But I'd suggest that posting bits of fiction directly to Less Wrong's discussion board isn't a very good place to look for that sort of advice in the first place.

I know it's not good parody. I know I'm a bad writer. That's why people should downvote it. It's only the deleting it despite its being upvoted part that I object to.

0philh
I'm actually more comfortable with it being deleted despite the upvotes, than if it had been downvoted and deleted. Deleting bad content that's getting downvoted anyway feels like censorship. Deleting bad content that gets upvoted might just be gardening. Hacker News doesn't shy away from doing this, for example.
4Tenoke
It is bad enough to border spam quality, especially if you just skim it. The person who took it down probably looked at it, saw that it is mostly nonsense with negative connotations (and written by someone who was inebriated at the time) and took it down. Do you seriously think that if you had instead written a normal criticizing post, which isn't vague as hell, that post would've been deleted, too?

a discussion post with (at least) 7 upvotes and (at least) 5 comments

It had 17 comments upon deletion. I was actually pretty disappointed because I enjoyed the comments on it and now I can't see them.

6NancyLebovitz
screenshot of comments
2NancyLebovitz
The 17 comments were visible a day or so ago-- after it had been moved to main. They're gone/blocked now.

I like how your critique is strong but no one is upvoting your comment because it can't be used to support any of their petty policy narratives. I'll upvote it, anyway. ETA: Welp, people are upvoting it now, sweet. Retracting this comment.

[This comment is no longer endorsed by its author]Reply

are you suggesting that your movement is about writing lame parodies with a few clever jokes in them in order to criticize what you dislike

Yes, Tenoke. That is a completely fair and accurate summary of my "movement".

9Luke_A_Somers
Since that's all you've given us to work with, I can only see this as taunting us with yet another hint that something is behind the curtain. This isn't Let's Make a Deal. Just open the freaking curtain.

Someone who seems to have something interesting to say, but is unable to say it.

CronoDAS280

Do you know who I am?

I can't help myself...

It was the final examination for an introductory English course at the local university. Like many such freshman courses, it was designed to weed out new students, having over 700 students in the class!

The examination was two hours long, and exam booklets were provided.

The professor was very strict and told the class that any exam that was not on his desk in exactly two hours would not be accepted and the student would fail. Half an hour into the exam, a student came rushing in and asked the profes

... (read more)

Lol. Wow. It may seem absurd but that was the first LessWrong comment I've read in like a year that caused me to actually have a new idea. Thank you.

I was gonna go into that in Chapter Two: Analyzing the Fuck out of an Owl. But I guess I won't, since my stupid fanfic idea seems to be attracting more drama and pettiness than could possibly be justified by the content. Alas, it seems postrationality is just too meta for this base basement world.

[anonymous]100

Smoke dat moose! Git dem maggots! Smoke dat moose! Analyze dat owl!

[a note for them what don't get it, as our democracy demands: I am referencing someone else who wrote allegedly impenetrable and seemingly drug-fueled masses of insight in order to incentivize the creation of more things that might fit that model, and hoping to create a meta-norm that's more conducive to stylistic experimentation, for reasons which will probably not be obvious to anyone here so go try to understand continental philosophy or something. Except you don't even need to do that s... (read more)

mwengler170

I was gonna go into that in Chapter Two: Analyzing the Fuck out of an Owl. But I guess I won't, since my stupid fanfic idea seems to be attracting more drama and pettiness than could possibly be justified by the content.

I'd prefer you not give up so easily.

The drama was created by whoever arbitrarily eliminated the original post. You don't get to censor something secretly, and then allow a repost but then claim the drama around the censorship is really just drama created by the original post and then use that drama to justify the censorship.

At least not if you are still paying lip service to rationality.

3Tenoke
Uhm, there isn't that much drama. Are you telling me you actually expected even less drama when you decided to post a short drunken-rambling-turned-fanfiction as a criticism of rationality/EY/HPMOR (if that is what it is, I am not sure), and then re-post it at the same place upon deletion? I can only assume that you are pretending to be badly calibrated here.
9DanielLC
You can just tell us without involving fanfiction.
[anonymous]220

Not creating drama seems to be antithetical to creating popular literature :).

You said "hero-worshipping", but okay, I retracted the comment. Also, very clever how you made it seem like you accidentally mis-typed "cultish".

How about subcultures that are allergic to bad content?

Those who are allergic to bad content would never wind up here. I would imagine they killed themselves long ago. Life is an endless procession of bad content.

Sorry for being unclear. I meant that any subculture that is allergic to parody of itself is just inviting less fair and less jocular criticism. Eliezer has already greatly damaged LessWrong's reputation by making it seem cultish. Making comments about how people are sensitive to appearances of cultishness and thus it's good for parody of that alleged cultishness to be banned, is just sowing the wind. I think that there are many interesting and independent intellectuals on LessWrong and I don't want them to be tarred as discreditable cultists. And that's why I would like it to be known that LessWrong is capable of self-parody and isn't going to pathetically grasp at credibility it never had in the first place.

6MathiasZaman
I'm not a respected member of the community, but I personally see no problems with parody and criticism. I've read criticism on Less Wrong and HPMOR and I've had no problems with those (although I did have disagreements, of course). It's just that this particular piece of parody isn't particularly good. It feels like someone critiquing "The Dark Knight Rises" for being about a guy dressed up as a bat. Sure, the movie is about that, but it's not really the core problem with that movie.
1Tenoke
FWIW, LessWrong is definitely capable of calm self-parody, especially when the authors of the parody are not explicitly trying to stir up drama, so there isn't much need for fanfic-based perofrmance art. One example of that is Shit Rationalists say

If someone wants to describe LW as cultish, they can take any parody of itself and present it as further evidence for their claims.

I think something like this has already happened with the Chuck-Norris-like list of Yudkowsky facts; the "Bayesian conspirator" illustration of the beisutsukai stories; and the redacted lecture screenshot that displayed "Eliezer Yudkowsky" on the right end of the intelligence scale. -- Instead of "they are cool people who can make fun" they can be spinned into "this is what those people seriou... (read more)

9solipsist
Oh, OK. Then I did not clearly communicate. I'm not worried about a clutish appearance -- I'm worried about a self-absorbed appearance. People who-have-heard-of-but-are-not-really-into LessWrong, in my conversations with them, have dismissed the site as an echo-chamber of inside references. That's what I'm worried about, and a self-parody story about Eliezer-Yudkowsky's fictional creation interacting with him does not help mitigate that impression. I'm not saying it could never be done, but it has to be really good to outweigh the costs.
4FeepingCreature
How about subcultures that are allergic to bad content? I just really don't see the value of keeping this post up other than as some sort of "look at how not censorshippy we are" signalling statement that was explicitly argued against on here. ("You have the downvote." Well I'm gonna use it.)

We are not a phyg! We are not a phyg! We are not a phyg!

It has a different meaning. It implies "sundry", with connotations of "diverse". (Also, that's not quite what "homonym" means.) I'm okay with some archaism if I get some precision thereby. If that gets lost on the audience then that audience isn't the one I'm most trying to speak to. But I appreciate the critique!

I really like HPMOR too. I joined the Singularity Institute just to discuss ideas like those found in HPMOR. That's why I don't want people like you making comments like the above. Because that sort of self-absorbed naval-gazing defensiveness is more toxic than any lighthearted parody I can spew. You must thoroughly research this.

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2solipsist
Could you elaborate? Is it you don't want making like the above? Or you don't want making like the above?

If I get the Gatekeeper position I'll cede it to you if you can convince me to let you out of the box.

It's the first chapter of an attempt to explicate the skills and virtues of postrationality. It also serves as parody but I'm not poking fun just for the sake of poking. I'm trying to halfway-communicate real ideas via adianoeta. Also I'm trying to learn how to write fiction, 'cuz I suck, as is apparent.

Maybe you could communicate better by being less tricksy , not more.

4Tenoke
I admit, I never got a clear idea of what postrationality is about except that it is somewhat less rigorous and more into mysticism (?), but are you suggesting that your movement is about writing lame parodies with a few clever jokes in them in order to criticize what you dislike (or maybe what you like - it isn't very clear)? I swear, this movement becomes weirder and weirder with every mention.
9[anonymous]
What's postrationality, what are it's skills, and what is the difference between those skills and the skills of rationality?
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