All of Jes's Comments + Replies

Jes20

Wish I could! But alas, I live in Guatemala. Of course, if anyone ever passes through Guatemala and wants a free tour guide, hit me up.

Good luck finding a new housemate!

Jes70

Dear mods, just a personal blog post, please do let me know if anything is wrong with me this here <3

Jes10

That's the point. In (protestant) Christianity, the old law was a standard that humans could never follow. But the old law had to be paid in blood. So God became human himself, so that he could pay in blood a law that only he could live up to.

It sounds like the author accidentally LARPed as an orthodox Jew.

Jes90

Well, it's not dead. It taught my daughter and I how to reason using Bayes' Rule, something I had completely given up on understanding until I read the fantastic guide from Arbital.

Maybe it didn't become a cool trend that people clamor over, but it probably helped other people with similar questions!

Here's the link if anyone else wants to learn the same: https://arbital.com/p/bayes_rule/

Jes40

Thank you, this makes a lot of sense. I do see how the history of science kind of narrows its way down towards materialism, and if we assume that path will continue in the same direction, pure materialism is the logical outcome.

But...

I disagree with the narrative that science is narrowing in on materialism. Popular culture certainly interprets the message of Science with a capital S that way, but reading actual scientific work doesn't leave that impression at all.

The message I got from my middle school science classes was that science is profoundly uncerta... (read more)

4rsaarelm
You seem to be claiming that whatever does get discovered, which might be interpreted as proof of the spiritual in another climate, will get distorted to support the materialist paradigm. I'm not really sure how this would work in practice. We already have a something of a precommitment to what we expect something "supernatural" to look like, ontologically basic mental entities. So far the discoveries of science have been nothing like that, and if new scientific discoveries suddenly were, I find it very hard to imagine quite many people outside of the "priesthood" not sitting up and paying very close attention. I don't really follow your arguments about what matter is and past scientist being wrong. Science improved and proved past scientists mistaken, that's the whole idea with science. Spiritualists have not improved much so far. And the question with matter isn't so much as what it is (what would an answer to this look like anyway?), but how matter acts, and science has done a remarkably good job at that part.
Jes10

Unborn beings don't exist, they are not moral patients. It would be perfectly fine if no one else was born from now on - in fact it would be better than even 1 single person dying.

Well, okay, but why? Why don't tomorrow people matter at all? Is there a real moral normativity that dictates this, or are we just saying our feelings to each other? I don't mean that condescendingly, just trying to understand where you're coming from when you make this claim.

I can see the altruism in dying for a cause. But it's a leap of faith to claim, from there, that there's

... (read more)
1superads91
Tomorrow people matter, in terms of leaving them a place in minimally decent conditions. That's why when you die for a cause, you're also dying so that tomorrow people can die less and suffer less. But in fact you're not dying for unborn people - you're dying for living ones from the future. But to die to make room for others is simply to die for unborn people. Because them never being born is no tragedy - they never existed, so they never missed anything. But living people actually dying is a tragedy. And I'm not against the fact that giving live is a great gift. Or should I say, it could be a great gift, if this world was at least acceptable, which it's far from being. It's just that not giving it doesn't hold any negative value, it's just neutral instead of positive. Whereas taking a life does hold negative value. It's as simple as that.
Jes10

Individualism and altruism aren't exclusive. I didn't mean to imply you are selfish, just that your operating definition of self seems informed by a particular tradition.

Consider the perspective of liberal republicans of the 19th century who fought and died for their nation (because that's where they decided, or were taught, to center their self). Each nation is completely unique and irreplaceable, so we must fight to keep nations thriving and alive, and prevent their extinction. Dying for patriotism is glorious, honorable, etc.

I have no idea of what consc

... (read more)
1superads91
I can see the altruism in dying for a cause. But it's a leap of faith to claim, from there, that there's altruism in dying by itself. To die why, to make room for others to get born? Unborn beings don't exist, they are not moral patients. It would be perfectly fine if no one else was born from now on - in fact it would be better than even 1 single person dying. Furthermore, if we're trying to create a technological mature society capable of discovering immortality, perhaps much sooner will it be capable of colonizing other planets. So there are trillions of empty planets to put all the new people before we have to start taking out the old ones. To die to make room for others just doesn't make any sense. "consciousness will go on just fine without either of us specifically being here" It sure will. But that's like saying that money will go on just fine if you go bankrupt. I mean, sure, the world will still be full of wealth, but that won't make you any less poor. Now imagine this happening to everyone inevitably. Sounds really sh*tty to me. "Btw I'm new to this community," Welcome then!
Jes20

Okay. I'm curious to understand why! Are you yourself materialist? Any recommended reading or viewing on the topic, specifically within the context of the rationalist movement?

5Kaj_Sotala
I'd say that something-like-materialism feels like the most consistent and likely explanation. Sure we could assume that maybe, despite all appearances, there isn't a real world of matter out there after all... but given that we do assume such a world for pretty much everything else we do, it would seem like an unjustifiably privileged hypothesis to assume anything else. There's a pretty strong materialist viewpoint in the original LW sequences, though it's kinda scattered across a number of posts so I'm not sure which ones in particular I'd recommend (besides the one about privileged hypotheses).
Jes30

Are people here mostly materialists? I'm not. In a Cartesian sense, the most authentic experience possible is that of consciousness itself, with matter being something our mind imagines to explain phenomenon that we think might be real outside of our imagination (but we can never really know).

In other words, we know that idealism is true, because we experience pure ideas constantly, and we suspect that the images our minds serve up might actually correspond to some reality out there (Kant's things-in-themselves).

The map might really be the territory. Like,... (read more)

Are people here mostly materialists?

Okay, since you seem interested in knowing why people are materialists. I think it's the history of science up until now. The history of science has basically been a constant build-up of materialism.

We started out at prehistoric animism where everything happening except that rock you just threw at another rock was driven by an intangible spirit. The rock wasn't since that was just you throwing it. And then people started figuring out successive compelling narratives about how more complex stuff is just rocks being thr... (read more)

8Kaj_Sotala
Yes.
Jes10

I don't think there is anything particularly scientific about transhumanism relative to other ideologies. They use science to achieve their goals, much like Catholics use science to prove that fetuses have heart beats or whatever. 

Really, this debate feels like it boils down to an individualistic vs collectivistic sense of self. In the collectivist view, dying is not that big of a deal. You can see this in action, when dying for your family, country, etc is seen as noble and great. Whereas an individual sacrificing their family to preserve themselves ... (read more)

1superads91
To each paragraph: 1. Totally unfair comparison. Do you really think that immortality and utopia are frivolous goals? So maybe you don't really believe in cryonics or something. Well, I don't either. But transhumanism is way more than that. I think that its goals with AI and life extension are all but a joke. 2. That's reductive. As an altruist, I care about all other conscious being. Of course maintaining sanity demands some distancing, but that's that. So I'd say I'm a collectivist. But one person doesn't substitute the other. Others continuing to live will never make up for those who die. The act of ceasing to exist if of the utmost cruelty and there's nothing that can compensate that. 3. I have no idea of what consciousness is scientifically, but morally I'm pretty sure it is valuable. All morality comes from the seeking of well-being for the conscious being. So if there's any value system, consciousness must be at the center. There's not much explaining here needed, it's just that everyone wants to be well - and to be. 4. Like I said every conscious being wants to exist. It's just the way we've been programmed. All beings matter, myself included. I goddamn want to live, that is the basis of all wants and of all rights. Have I been brainwashed? Religions have been brainwashing people about the exact opposite for millenia, that death is ok, either because we go to heaven according to the West, or because we'll reincarnate or we're part of a whole according to the East. So, quite on the contrary, I think I have been de-brainwashed. 5. An unborn person isn't a tragedy. A death one is. So it's much more important to care about the living than the unborn. 6. If most people are saying that AGI is decade(s) off then we aren't that far. As for raising children as best as we can I think that's just common sense. 1. I partly agree. It would be horrible if Genghis Khan or Hitler never died. But we could always put them in a really good prison. I just don't w
Jes00

>Each conscious being is irreplaceable.

Right, that's my point - the conscious being of your childhood is not replaceable with you now. You are a clone of your dead childhood self. That's fine for you, the clone. But who's interested in getting a 30-year-old clone? And the many consciousnesses that flower and die every few decades, will be replaced with the single continuation of a single generation that stumbles into immortality.

>I think that's a sedative, like all religions

I'm not Buddhist, but your critique extends to yourself. If you take one step... (read more)

1superads91
"You are a clone of your dead childhood self." Yes, that's a typical Buddhist-like statement, that we die and are reborn each instant. But I think it's just incorrect - my childhood self never died. He's alive right now, here. When I die the biological death, then I will stop existing. It's as simple as that. Yet I feel like Buddhists, or Eastern religion in general, does this and other mental gymnastics to comfort people. "So you either stick with modernism (that transhumanism is the one, special ideology immune from humanity's tragic need to self-sedate), or dive into the void" There are self-sedating transhumanists, for sure. Like, if you think there isn't a relevant probability that immortality just won't work, or if you're optimistic about the AI control problem, you're definitely a self-sedating transhumanist. I try to not be one as much as possible, but maybe I am in some areas - no one's perfect. But it's pretty clear that there's a big difference between transhumanism and religions. The former relies on science to propose solutions to our problems, while the later is based on the teachings of prophets, people who thought that their personal intuitions were the absolute truth. And, in terms of self-sedating ideas, if transhumanism is a small grain of Valium, religion is a big fat tab. "It's hard to say anything about reality when the only thing you know is that you're high af all the time." I agree. I claim uncertainty on all my claims. "Every day the same sun rises, yet it's a different day. You aren't the sun, you're the day. Imagine droplets of water trapped in a cup, then poured back into the ocean. Water is consciousness, your mind is the cup." Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, I know, I've heard the story a thousand times. There's only one indivisible self/consciousness/being, we're just an instance of it. Well, you can believe that if you want, I don't have the scientific evidence to disprove it. But neither have you the evidence to prove it, so I ca
Jes-10

Just have kids. Whatever posttranshuman creature inherits the ghost of your body in a thousand years won't be "you" in any sense beyond the pettiest interpretation of ego as "continuous memory", and even that falls apart quickly under scrutiny. 

Your offspring are as much "you" as that thousand year ego projection. Except they're better, because they start a whole new fresh consciousness unfettered with your accumulated prejudices. I advocate we raise children better, wiser, and accept death younger and more usefully. 

1superads91
"Whatever posttranshuman creature inherits the ghost of your body in a thousand years won't be "you" in any sense beyond the pettiest interpretation of ego as "continuous memory"" I used to buy into that Buddhist perspective, but I no longer do. I think that's a sedative, like all religions. Though I will admit that I still meditate, because I still hope to find out that I'm wrong. I hope I do, but I don't have a lot of hope. My reason and intuition are clear in telling me that the self is extremely valuable, both mine and that of all other conscious beings, and death is a mistake. Unless you mean to say that they will only be a clone of me. Then you're right, a clone of me is not me at all, even if it feels exactly like me. But then we would have just failed at life extension anyway. Who's interested in getting an immortal clone? People are interested in living forever themselves, not someone else. At least if they're being honest. "Your offspring are as much "you" as that thousand year ego projection. " I've been alive for 30 years - not much, I admit, but I still feel as much like me as in the first day that I can remember. I suspect that as long as the brain remains healthy, that will remain so. But I never ever felt "me" in any other conscious being. Again, Buddhist projection. Sedative. Each conscious being is irreplaceable.