Quick Takes

quila42

At what point should I post content as top-level posts rather than shortforms?

For example, a recent writing I posted to shortform was ~250 concise words plus an image: 'Anthropics may support a 'non-agentic superintelligence' agenda'. It would be a top-level post on my blog if I had one set up (maybe soon :p).

Some general guidelines on this would be helpful.

4niplav
This is a good question, especially since there've been some short form posts recently that are high quality and would've made good top-level posts—after all, posts can be short.
Emrik10

Epic Lizka post is epic.

Also, I absolutely love the word "shard" but my brain refuses to use it because then it feels like we won't get credit for discovering these notions by ourselves. Well, also just because the words "domain", "context", "scope", "niche", "trigger", "preimage" (wrt to a neural function/policy / "neureme") adequately serve the same purpose and are currently more semantically/semiotically granular in my head.

trigger/preimage ⊆ scope ⊆ domain

"niche" is a category in function space (including domain, operation, and codomain), "domain" is a set.

"scope" is great because of programming connotations and can be used as a verb. "This neural function is scoped to these contexts."

keltan70

Note to self, write a post about the novel akrasia solutions I thought up before becoming a rationalist.

  • Figuring out how to want to want to do things
  • Personalised advertising of Things I Wanted to Want to Do
  • What I do when all else fails
keltan30

Maybe I could even write a sequence on this?

Several dozen people now presumably have Lumina in their mouths. Can we not simply crowdsource some assays of their saliva? I would chip money in to this. Key questions around ethanol levels, aldehyde levels, antibacterial levels, and whether the organism itself stays colonized at useful levels.

Maybe I'm late to the conversation but has anyone thought through what happens when Lumina colonizes the mouths of other people? Mouth bacteria is important for things like conversation of nitrate to nitrite for nitric oxide production. How do we know the lactic acid metabolism isn't important or Lumina won't outcompete other strains important for overall health? 

quila94

(Personal) On writing and (not) speaking

I often struggle to find words and sentences that match what I intend to communicate.

Here are some problems this can cause:

  1. Wordings that are odd or unintuitive to the reader, but that are at least literally correct.[1]
  2. Not being able express what I mean, and having to choose between not writing it, or risking miscommunication by trying anyways. I tend to choose the former unless I'm writing to a close friend. Unfortunately this means I am unable to express some key insights to a general audience.
  3. Writing taking lots of
... (read more)
2Emrik
Aaron Bergman has a vid of himself typing new sentences in real-time, which I found really helpfwl.[1] I wish I could watch lots of people record themselves typing, so I could compare what I do. Being slow at writing can be sign of failure or winning, depending on the exact reasons why you're slow. I'd worry about being "too good" at writing, since that'd be evidence that your brain is conforming your thoughts to the language, instead of conforming your language to your thoughts. English is just a really poor medium for thought (at least compared to e.g. visuals and pre-word intuitive representations), so it's potentially dangerous to care overmuch about it. 1. ^ Btw, Aaron is another person-recommendation. He's awesome. Has really strong self-insight, goodness-of-heart, creativity. (Twitter profile, blog+podcast, EAF, links.) I haven't personally learned a whole bunch from him yet,[2] but I expect if he continues being what he is, he'll produce lots of cool stuff which I'll learn from later. 2. ^ Edit: I now recall that I've learned from him: screwworms (important), and the ubiquity of left-handed chirality in nature (mildly important). He also caused me to look into two-envelopes paradox, which was usefwl for me. Although I later learned about screwworms from Kevin Esvelt at 80kh podcast, so I would've learned it anyway. And I also later learned about left-handed chirality from Steve Mould on YT, but I may not have reflected on it as much.
quila10

Record yourself typing?

1weightt an
It's also partially the problem with the recipient of communicated message. Sometimes you both have very different background assumptions/intuitive understandings. Sometimes it's just skill issue and the person you are talking to is bad at parsing and all the work of keeping the discussion on the important things / away from trivial undesirable sidelines is left to you. Certainly it's useful to know how to pick your battles and see if this discussion/dialogue is worth what you're getting out of it at all.
niplav62

Just checked who from the authors of the Weak-To-Strong Generalization paper is still at OpenAI:

  • Collin Burns
  • Jan Hendrick Kirchner
  • Leo Gao
  • Bowen Baker
  • Yining Chen
  • Adrian Ecoffet
  • Manas Joglekar
  • Yeff Wu

Gone are:

  • Ilya Sutskever
  • Pavel Izmailov[1]
  • Jan Leike
  • Leopold Aschenbrenner

  1. Reason unknown ↩︎

elifland5039

The word "overconfident" seems overloaded. Here are some things I think that people sometimes mean when they say someone is overconfident:

  1. They gave a binary probability that is too far from 50% (I believe this is the original one)
  2. They overestimated a binary probability (e.g. they said 20% when it should be 1%)
  3. Their estimate is arrogant (e.g. they say there's a 40% chance their startup fails when it should be 95%), or maybe they give an arrogant vibe
  4. They seem too unwilling to change their mind upon arguments (maybe their credal resilience is too high)
  5. They g
... (read more)

 Moore & Schatz (2017) made a similar point about different meanings of "overconfidence" in their paper The three faces of overconfidence. The abstract:

Overconfidence has been studied in 3 distinct ways. Overestimation is thinking that you are better than you are. Overplacement is the exaggerated belief that you are better than others. Overprecision is the excessive faith that you know the truth. These 3 forms of overconfidence manifest themselves under different conditions, have different causes, and have widely varying consequences. It is a mist

... (read more)
4Daniel Kokotajlo
I feel like this should be a top-level post.
3Garrett Baker
When I accuse someone of overconfidence, I usually mean they're being too hedgehogy when they should be being more foxy.

For anyone interested in Natural Abstractions type research: https://arxiv.org/abs/2405.07987

Claude summary:

Key points of "The Platonic Representation Hypothesis" paper:

  1. Neural networks trained on different objectives, architectures, and modalities are converging to similar representations of the world as they scale up in size and capabilities.

  2. This convergence is driven by the shared structure of the underlying reality generating the data, which acts as an attractor for the learned representations.

  3. Scaling up model size, data quantity, and task dive

... (read more)
cubefox10

This sounds really intriguing. I would like someone who is familiar with natural abstraction research to comment on this paper.

Epistemic status: not a lawyer, but I've worked with a lot of them.

As I understand it, an NDA isn't enforceable against a subpoena (though the former employer can seek a protective order for the testimony).   Someone should really encourage law enforcement or Congress to subpoena the OpenAI resigners...

A subpoena for what?

Decomposability seems like a fundamental assumption for interpretability and condition for it to succeed. E.g. from Toy Models of Superposition:

'Decomposability: Neural network activations which are decomposable can be decomposed into features, the meaning of which is not dependent on the value of other features. (This property is ultimately the most important – see the role of decomposition in defeating the curse of dimensionality.) [...]

The first two (decomposability and linearity) are properties we hypothesize to be widespread, while the latte... (read more)

1Bogdan Ionut Cirstea
Related, from The “no sandbagging on checkable tasks” hypothesis:

Quote from Shulman’s discussion of the experimental feedback loops involved in being able to check how well a proposed “neural lie detector” detects lies in models you’ve trained to lie: 

A quite early example of this is Collin Burn’s work, doing unsupervised identification of some aspects of a neural network that are correlated with things being true or false. I think that is important work. It's a kind of obvious direction for the stuff to go. You can keep improving it when you have AIs that you're training to do their best to deceive humans or other

... (read more)

A list of some contrarian takes I have:

  • People are currently predictably too worried about misuse risks

  • What people really mean by "open source" vs "closed source" labs is actually "responsible" vs "irresponsible" labs, which is not affected by regulations targeting open source model deployment.

  • Neuroscience as an outer alignment[1] strategy is embarrassingly underrated.

  • Better information security at labs is not clearly a good thing, and if we're worried about great power conflict, probably a bad thing.

  • Much research on deception (Anthropic's re

... (read more)
Reply1822221111
Showing 3 of 10 replies (Click to show all)

Ah yes, another contrarian opinion I have:

  • Big AGI corporations, like Anthropic, should by-default make much of their AGI alignment research private, and not share it with competing labs. Why? So it can remain a private good, and in the off-chance such research can be expected to be profitable, those labs & investors can be rewarded for that research.
4Olli Järviniemi
  I talked about this with Garrett; I'm unpacking the above comment and summarizing our discussions here. * Sleeper Agents is very much in the "learned heuristics" category, given that we are explicitly training the behavior in the model. Corollary: the underlying mechanisms for sleeper-agents-behavior and instrumentally convergent deception are presumably wildly different(!), so it's not obvious how valid inference one can make from the results * Consider framing Sleeper Agents as training a trojan instead of as an example of deception. See also Dan Hendycks' comment. * Much of existing work on deception suffers from "you told the model to be deceptive, and now it deceives, of course that happens" * (Garrett thought that the Uncovering Deceptive Tendencies paper has much less of this issue, so yay) * There is very little work on actual instrumentally convergent deception(!) - a lot of work falls into the "learned heuristics" category or the failure in the previous bullet point * People are prone to conflate between "shallow, trained deception" (e.g. sycophancy: "you rewarded the model for leaning into the user's political biases, of course it will start leaning into users' political biases") and instrumentally convergent deception * (For more on this, see also my writings here and here.  My writings fail to discuss the most shallow versions of deception, however.)   Also, we talked a bit about and I interpreted Garrett saying that people often consider too few and shallow hypotheses for their observations, and are loose with verifying whether their hypotheses are correct. Example 1: I think the Uncovering Deceptive Tendencies paper has some of this failure mode. E.g. in experiment A we considered four hypotheses to explain our observations, and these hypotheses are quite shallow/broad (e.g. "deception" includes both very shallow deception and instrumentally convergent deception). Example 2: People generally seem to have an opinion of "chain-of-t
2Garrett Baker
I will clarify on this. I think people often do causal interventions in their CoTs, but not in ways that are very convincing to me.

I thought Superalignment was a positive bet by OpenAI, and I was happy when they committed to putting 20% of their current compute (at the time) towards it. I stopped thinking about that kind of approach because OAI already had competent people working on it. Several of them are now gone.

It seems increasingly likely that the entire effort will dissolve. If so, OAI has now made the business decision to invest its capital in keeping its moat in the AGI race rather than basic safety science. This is bad and likely another early sign of what's to come.

I think ... (read more)

kromem10

It's going to have to.

Ilya is brilliant and seems to really see the horizon of the tech, but maybe isn't the best at the business side to see how to sell it.

But this is often the curse of the ethically pragmatic. There is such a focus on the ethics part by the participants that the business side of things only sees that conversation and misses the rather extreme pragmatism.

As an example, would superaligned CEOs in the oil industry fifty years ago have still only kept their eye on quarterly share prices or considered long term costs of their choices? There'... (read more)

3Bogdan Ionut Cirstea
Strongly agree; I've been thinking for a while that something like a public-private partnership involving at least the US government and the top US AI labs might be a better way to go about this. Unfortunately, recent events seem in line with it not being ideal to only rely on labs for AI safety research, and the potential scalability of automating it should make it even more promising for government involvement. [Strongly] oversimplified, the labs could provide a lot of the in-house expertise, the government could provide the incentives, public legitimacy (related: I think of a solution to aligning superintelligence as a public good) and significant financial resources.

My timelines are lengthening. 

I've long been a skeptic of scaling LLMs to AGI *. To me I fundamentally don't understand how this is even possible. It must be said that very smart people give this view credence. davidad, dmurfet. on the other side are vanessa kosoy and steven byrnes. When pushed proponents don't actually defend the position that a large enough transformer will create nanotech or even obsolete their job. They usually mumble something about scaffolding.

I won't get into this debate here but I do want to note that my timelines have lengthe... (read more)

Showing 3 of 21 replies (Click to show all)
5Nathan Helm-Burger
My view is that there's huge algorithmic gains in peak capability, training efficiency (less data, less compute), and inference efficiency waiting to be discovered, and available to be found by a large number of parallel research hours invested by a minimally competent multimodal LLM powered research team. So it's not that scaling leads to ASI directly, it's: 1. scaling leads to brute forcing the LLM agent across the threshold of AI research usefulness 2. Using these LLM agents in a large research project can lead to rapidly finding better ML algorithms and architectures. 3. Training these newly discovered architectures at large scales leads to much more competent automated researchers. 4. This process repeats quickly over a few months or years. 5. This process results in AGI. 6. AGI, if instructed (or allowed, if it's agentically motivated on its own to do so) to improve itself will find even better architectures and algorithms. 7. This process can repeat until ASI. The resulting intelligence / capability / inference speed goes far beyond that of humans.  Note that this process isn't inevitable, there are many points along the way where humans can (and should, in my opinion) intervene. We aren't disempowered until near the end of this.
4Alexander Gietelink Oldenziel
Why do you think there are these low-hanging algorithmic improvements?

My answer to that is currently in the form of a detailed 2 hour lecture with a bibliography that has dozens of academic papers in it, which I only present to people that I'm quite confident aren't going to spread the details. It's a hard thing to discuss in detail without sharing capabilities thoughts. If I don't give details or cite sources, then... it's just, like, my opinion, man. So my unsupported opinion is all I have to offer publicly. If you'd like to bet on it, I'm open to showing my confidence in my opinion by betting that the world turns out how I expect it to.

Yesterday Greg Sadler and I met with the President of the Australian Association of Voice Actors. Like us, they've been lobbying for more and better AI regulation from government. I was surprised how much overlap we had in concerns and potential solutions:
1. Transparency and explainability of AI model data use (concern)

2. Importance of interpretability (solution)

3. Mis/dis information from deepfakes (concern)

4. Lack of liability for the creators of AI if any harms eventuate (concern + solution)

5. Unemployment without safety nets for Australians (concern)

6.... (read more)

Problem of Old Evidence, the Paradox of Ignorance and Shapley Values

Paradox of Ignorance

Paul Christiano presents the "paradox of ignorance" where a weaker, less informed agent appears to outperform a more powerful, more informed agent in certain situations. This seems to contradict the intuitive desideratum that more information should always lead to better performance.

The example given is of two agents, one powerful and one limited, trying to determine the truth of a universal statement ∀x:ϕ(x) for some Δ0 formula ϕ. The limited agent treats each new valu... (read more)

Showing 3 of 8 replies (Click to show all)
kromem10

While I agree that the potential for AI (we probably need a better term than LLMs or transformers as multimodal models with evolving architectures grow beyond those terms) in exploring less testable topics as more testable is quite high, I'm not sure the air gapping on information can be as clean as you might hope.

Does the AI generating the stories of Napoleon's victory know about the historical reality of Waterloo? Is it using something like SynthID where the other AI might inadvertently pick up on a pattern across the stories of victories distinct from t... (read more)

2Alexander Gietelink Oldenziel
Beautifully illustrated and amusingly put, sir! A variant of what you are saying is that AI may once and for all allow us to calculate the true counterfactual     Shapley value of scientific contributions. ( re: ancestor simulations I think you are onto something here. Compare the Q hypothesis:     https://twitter.com/dalcy_me/status/1780571900957339771 see also speculations about Zhuangzi hypothesis here  )
3gwern
Yup. Who knows but we are all part of a giant leave-one-out cross-validation computing counterfactual credit assignment on human history? Schmidhuber-em will be crushed by the results.

I've made a big set of expert opinions on AI and my inferred percentages from them. I guess that some people will disagree with them. 

I'd appreciate hearing your criticisms so I can improve them or fill in entries I'm missing. 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HH1cpD48BqNUA1TYB2KYamJwxluwiAEG24wGM2yoLJw/edit?usp=sharing

No data wall blocking GPT-5. That seems clear. For future models, will there be data limitations? Unclear.

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxPCwMlJXdCehOkiDq9F8eURWklIk61nyh?si=iMJYatfDAZ_E5CtR 

The first thing I noticed with GPT-4o is that “her” appears ‘flirty’ especially the interview video demo. I wonder if it was done on purpose.

(This is the tale of a potentially reasonable CEO of the leading AGI company, not the one we have in the real world. Written after a conversation with @jdp.)

You’re the CEO of the leading AGI company. You start to think that your moat is not as big as it once was. You need more compute and need to start accelerating to give yourself a bigger lead, otherwise this will be bad for business.

You start to look around for compute, and realize you have 20% of your compute you handed off to the superalignment team (and even made a public commitment!). You end up ma... (read more)

So, you go to government and lobby. Except you never intended to help the government get involved in some kind of slow-down or pause. Your intent was to use this entire story as a mirage for getting rid of those who didn’t align with you and lobby the government in such a way that they don’t think it is such a big deal that your safety researchers are resigning.

You were never the reasonable CEO, and now you have complete power.

simeon_c12469

Idea: Daniel Kokotajlo probably lost quite a bit of money by not signing an OpenAI NDA before leaving, which I consider a public service at this point. Could some of the funders of the AI safety landscape give some money or social reward for this?

I guess reimbursing everything Daniel lost might be a bit too much for funders but providing some money, both to reward the act and incentivize future safety people to not sign NDAs would have a very high value. 

Showing 3 of 20 replies (Click to show all)
2Isaac King
They didn't change their charter. https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/2Dg9t5HTqHXpZPBXP/ea-community-needs-mechanisms-to-avoid-deceptive-messaging

Thanks, I hadn't seen that, I find it convincing.

4wassname
Notably, there are some lawyers here on LessWrong who might help (possibly even for the lols, you never know). And you can look at case law and guidance to see if clauses are actually enforceable or not (many are not). To anyone reading, here's habryka doing just that
William_SΩ731669

I worked at OpenAI for three years, from 2021-2024 on the Alignment team, which eventually became the Superalignment team. I worked on scalable oversight, part of the team developing critiques as a technique for using language models to spot mistakes in other language models. I then worked to refine an idea from Nick Cammarata into a method for using language model to generate explanations for features in language models. I was then promoted to managing a team of 4 people which worked on trying to understand language model features in context, leading to t... (read more)

Reply15932
Showing 3 of 33 replies (Click to show all)
8wassname
Are you familiar with USA NDA's? I'm sure there are lots of clauses that have been ruled invalid by case law? In many cases, non-lawyers have no ideas about these, so you might be able to make a difference with very little effort. There is also the possibility that valuable OpenAI shares could be rescued? If you haven't seen it, check out this thread where one of the OpenAI leavers did not sigh the gag order.
4PhilosophicalSoul
I have reviewed his post. Two (2) things to note:  (1) Invalidity of the NDA does not guarantee William will be compensated after the trial. Even if he is, his job prospects may be hurt long-term.  (2) State's have different laws on whether the NLRA trumps internal company memorandums. More importantly, labour disputes are traditionally solved through internal bargaining. Presumably, the collective bargaining 'hand-off' involving NDA's and gag-orders at this level will waive subsequent litigation in district courts. The precedent Habryka offered refers to hostile severance agreements only, not the waiving of the dispute mechanism itself.  I honestly wish I could use this dialogue as a discrete communication to William on a way out, assuming he needs help, but I re-affirm my previous worries on the costs.  I also add here, rather cautiously, that there are solutions. However, it would depend on whether William was an independent contractor, how long he worked there, whether it actually involved a trade secret (as others have mentioned) and so on. The whole reason NDA's tend to be so effective is because they obfuscate the material needed to even know or be aware of what remedies are available.  

Interesting! For most of us, this is outside our area of competence, so appreciate your input.

Load More