You seem to be saying that once we accept the possibility of ever coercing anyone, we have to also accept the possibility of coercion being misused. You then suggest that since we don't want coercion to be misused, we can never coerce anyone, and we should accept a society where other people can do whatever they want.

This is a lot like saying that since science could theoretically be used to bioengineer a plague, we should avoid all scientific thought.

I don't demand - as you seem to think I do - that everyone do whatever I want. I demand that everyone work together for a solution that maximizes the utility of everyone. I believe that a society where we all realize that no one raping anyone leaves everyone better off is better than a society where everyone can rape whoever they want. Likewise, I think a society with certain minimum noise restrictions will leave everyone, whether noisy or quiet, in general better off than one where everyone is free to extort their neighbors for however much they want.

This isn't new - Bentham and Mill worked out the details several hundred years ago. Yes, there are costs from the existence of enforcement mechanisms and the potential for the restriction of freedom to be greater than the benefits. But in some cases - like the case of please don't rape people - the benefits are clearly greater than the costs.

Sometimes you can't get what you want. But most people who enjoy proclaiming that very loudly are just trying to signal how hard-headed and tough they are. If there's an easy way in which you can get what you want, there's no extra virtue in refusing to take it. Having restrictions about not committing violence against other people is one such easy way.

I am not trying to say that I've thought about it and I'm absolutely sure there's no possible non-coercive way to solve the problem of rape. If you can think of one, you're welcome to post it. I'm just trying to say that your particular argument here that all coercive methods are bad doesn't hold any water.

[addendum: no, I don't think the case of violence and annoyance are particularly different. If it helps, imagine a person releasing poison gas from the room next door. If the gas kills me, it's violence. If it's a little less gas, and it merely injures me to such a degree I end up in the hospital for a month, it's still violence. If the gas sends me into a fit of coughing every time I breathe, it's annoyance. If it just makes me itchy, it's definitely annoyance. At what point does releasing the gas change from "injury" to "annoyance"? I would say these are artificial categories with no real-world equivalent, and that instead of looking for a clean answer with an obvious distinguishing case, you have to just accept that there's going to be a cost-benefit analysis to going over to your neighbor's and smashing the gas-apparatus either way, and that at some points it will return negative and at other points positive results.]

This is turning into a political discussion here, and not even one that meets this community's high standards. I will read your next response, but otherwise not continue this thread further.