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MixedNuts comments on Open Thread: March 2010 - Less Wrong
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I keep doing something that doesn't require much effort, out of inertia; typically, reading, browsing the web, listening to the radio, washing a dish. Or I just sit or lie there letting my mind wander and periodically trying to get myself to start doing something. If I'm trying to do something that requires thinking (typically homework) when my brain stops working, I keep doing it but I can't make much progress.
Possible solutions:
Increase the amount of effort it takes to do the low-effort things you are trying to avoid. For instance, it isn't terribly hard to set your internet on a timer so it automatically shuts off from 1 - 3pm. While it isn't terribly hard to turn it back on, if you can scrounge up the effort to turn it back on you may be able to put that effort into something else.
Decrease the amount of effort it takes to do the high-effort things you are trying to accomplish. Paying bills, for instance, can be done online and streamlined. Family and friend can help tremendously in this area.
Increase the amount of effort it takes to avoid doing the things you are trying to accomplish. If you want to make it to an important meeting, try to get a friend to pick you up and drive you all the way over there.
These are somewhat complicated and broad categories and I don't know how much they would help.
I've tried all that (they're on LW already).
That wouldn't work. I do these things by default, because I can't do the things I want. I don't even have a problem with standard akrasia anymore, because I immediately act on any impulse I have to do something, given how rare they are. Also, I can expend willpower do stop doing something, whereas "I need to do this but I can't" seems impervious to it, at least in the amounts I have.
There are plenty of things to be done here, but they're too hard to bootstrap. The easy ones helped somewhat.
That helped me most. In the grey area between things I can do and things I can't (currently, cleaning, homework, most phone calls), pressure helps. But no amount of ass-kicking has made me do the things I've been trying to do for a while.
Okay. Nothing I have will help you. My problems are generally OCD based procrastination loops or modifying bad habits and rituals. Solutions to these assume impulses to do things.
I have nothing that would provide you with impulses to do.
All of my interpretations of "I can't do X" assume what I mean when I tell myself I can't do X.
Sorry. If I were actually there I could probably come up with something but I highly doubt I would be able to "see" you well enough through text to be able to find a relevant answer.
What classes of things are on the 'can't do' list?
The worst are semi-routine activities; the kind of things you need to do sometimes but not frequently enough to mesh with the daily routine. Going to the bank, making most appointments, looking for an apartment, buying clothes (don't ask me why food is okay but clothes aren't). That list is expanding.
Other factors that hurt are:
Most of these cause me fear, which makes it harder to do things, rather than make it harder directly.
This matches my experience very closely. One observation I'd like to add is that one of my strongest triggers for procrastination spirals is having a task repeatedly brought to my attention in a context where it's impossible to follow through on it - ie, reminders to do things from well-intentioned friends, delivered at inappropriate times. For example, if someone reminds me to get some car maintenance done, the fact that I obviously can't go do it right then means it gets mentally tagged as a wrong course of action, and then later when I really ought to do it the tag is still there.
Definitely. So that's why I can't do the stuff I should have done a while ago! Thanks for the insight. What works for you?
I ended up just explaining the issue to the person who was generating most of the reminders. It wasn't an easy conversation to have (it can sound like being ungrateful and passing blame) but it was definitely necessary. Sending a link to this thread and then bringing it up later seems like it'd mitigate that problem, so that's probably the way to go.
Note that it's very important to draw a distinction between things you haven't done because you've forgotten, for which reminders can actually be helpful, and things you aren't doing because of lack of motivation, for which reminders are harmful.
If you're reading this because a chronic procrastinator sent you a link, then please take this one piece of advice: The very worst thing you can do is remind them every time you speak. If you do that, you will not only reduce the chance that they'll actually do it, you'll also poison your relationship with them by getting yourself mentally classified as a nag.
I can't do that, but thanks anyway. A good deal of the reminders happen in a (semi-)professional context where the top priority is pretending to be normal (yes, my priorities are screwed up). Most others come from a person who doesn't react to "this thing you do is causing me physical pain", so forget it.
In that case, you'll have to mindhack yourself to change the way you react to reminders like this. This isn't necessarily easy, but if you pull it off it's a one-time act with results that stick with you.
Why do you interact with this person?
I have a couple of questions, MixedNuts:
Given your symptoms, the best advice I can give you is to see a medical doctor of some kind, probably a psychiatrist, and describe your problems. It has to be someone who can order medical tests and write prescriptions. You might very well have a thyroid problem - they cause all kinds of problems with energy and such - and you need someone who can diagnose them. I don't know how to get you to a doctor's office, but I guess you could ask someone else to take you?
How much fresh citrus fruit is there in your diet?
One of the things that helped me with near depression symptoms when i was in another country was consumption of fresh fruit. Apples and pears helped me, but you already are having apples. hmm..
Try some fresh orange/lemon/sweet lime/grapefruit juices. Might help.
Quite a lot, but possibly too sporadically. I'll try it, thanks.
That sounds like a cognitive-load issue at least as much as it sounds like inertia, to me. (Except the being-watched part, that is. I have that quirk too, and I still haven't figured out what that's about.) There are things that can be done about that, but most of them are minor tweaks that would need to be personalized for you. I suspect I might have some useful things to say about the fear, too. I'll PM you my contact info.
What do you mean by "cognitive load"? I read the Wikipedia article on cognitive load theory, but I don't see the connection.
For me, the being-watched part is about embarrassment. I often need to stop and examine a situation and explicitly model it, when most people would just go ahead naturally. Awkward looks cause anxiety.
The concept I'm talking about is broader than the concept that Wikipedia talks about; it's the general idea that brains only have so many resources to go around, and that some brains have less resources than others or find certain tasks more costly than others, and that it takes a while for those resources to regenerate. Something like this idea has come up a few times here, mostly regarding willpower specifically (and we've found studies supporting it in that case), but my experience is that it's much more generally applicable then that.
And, if your brain regenerates that resource particularly slowly, and if you haven't been thinking in terms of conserving that limited resource (or set of resources, depending on how exactly you're modeling it), it's fairly easy to set yourself up with a lifestyle that uses the resource faster than it can regenerate, which has pretty much the effect you described. (I've experienced it, too, and it's not an uncommon situation to hear about in the autistic community.)
Yes! It does feel like running out of a scarce resource most people have in heaps. I don't know exactly how that resource is generated and how to tell how much I have left before I run out, though.
Fortunately, the latter at least seems to be a learnable skill for most people. :)
There is evidence linking people's limited resources for thought and willpower to their blood glucose, which is another good reason to see a doctor to find out if there's something physiological underlying some of your problems.
Does thinking about having less of that resource than other people tend to consume it?