Eneasz comments on Abnormal Cryonics - Less Wrong
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I'm in the signing process right now, and I wanted to comment on the "work in progress" aspect of your statement. People think that signing up for cyronics is hard. That it takes work. I thought this myself up until a few weeks ago. This is stunningly NOT true.
The entire process is amazingly simple. You contact CI (or your preserver of choice) via their email address and express interest. They ask you for a few bits of info (name, address) and send you everything you need already printed and filled out. All you have to do is sign your name a few times and send it back. The process of getting life insurance was harder (and getting life insurance is trivially easy).
So yeah, the term "working on it" is not correctly applicable to this situation. Someone who's never climbed a flight of stairs may work out for months in preparation, but they really don't need to, and afterwards might be somewhat annoyed that no one who'd climbed stairs before had bothered to tell them so.
Literally the only hard part is the psychological effort of doing something considered so weird. The hardest part for me (and what had stopped me for two+ years previously) was telling my insurance agent when she asked "What's CI?" that it's a place that'll freeze me when I die. I failed to take into account that we have an incredibly tolerant society. People interact - on a daily basis - with other humans who believe in gods and energy crystals and alien visits and secret-muslim presidents without batting an eye. This was no different. It was like the first time you leap from the high diving board and don't die, and realize that you never would have.
The hard part (and why this is also a work in progress) involve secondary optimizations, the right amount of effort to put into them, and understanding whether these issues generalize to other parts of my life.
SilasBartas identified some of the practical financial details involved in setting up whole life versus term plus savings versus some other option. This is even more complex for me because I don't currently have health insurance and ideally would like to have a personal physician, health insurance, and retirement savings plan that are consistent with whatever cryonics situation I set up.
Secondarily, there are similarly complex social issues that come up because I'm married, love my family, am able to have philosophical conversations them, and don't want to "succeed" at cryonics but then wake up for 1000 years of guilt that I didn't help my family "win" too. If they don't also win, when I could have helped them, then what kind of a daughter or sister would I be?
Finally, I've worked on a personal version of a "drake equation for cryonics" and it honestly wasn't a slam dunk economic decision when I took a pessimistic outside view of my model. So it would seem that more analysis here would be prudent, which would logically require some time to perform. If I had something solid I imagine that would help convince my family - given that they are generally rational in their own personal ways :-)
Finally, as a meta issue, there are issues around cognitive inertia in both the financial and the social arenas so that whatever decisions I make now, may "stick" for the next forty years. Against this I weigh the issue of "best being the enemy of good" because (in point of fact) I'm not safe in any way at all right now... which is an obvious negative. In what places should I be willing to tolerate erroneous thinking and sloppy execution that fails to obtain the maximum lifetime benefit and to what degree should I carry that "sloppiness calibration" over to the rest of my life?
So, yeah, its a work in progress.
I'm pretty much not afraid of the social issues that you brought up. If people who disagree with me about the state of the world want to judge me, that's their problem up until they start trying to sanction me or spread malicious gossip that blocks other avenues of self improvement or success. The judgment of strangers who I'll never see again is mostly a practical issue and not that relevant compared to relationships that really matter, like those with my husband, nuclear family, friends, personal physician, and so on.
Back in 1999 I examined these issues. In 2004 I got to the point of having all the paperwork to sign and turn in with Alcor and Insurance, with all costs pre-specified. In each case I backed off because I calculated the costs and looked at my income and looked at the things I'd need to cut out of my life (and none of it was coffee from starbucks or philanthropy or other fluffy BS like that - it was more like the simple quality of my food and whether I'd be able to afford one bedroom vs half a bedroom) and they honestly didn't seem to be worth it. As I've gotten older and richer and more influential (and partly due to influence from this community) I've decided I should review the decision again.
The hard part for me is dotting the i's and crossing the t's (and trying to figure out where its safe to skip some of these steps) while seeking to minimize future regrets and maximize positive outcomes.
You can't hold yourself responsible for their decisions. That way lies madness, or tyranny. If you respect them as free agents then you can't view yourself as the primary source for their actions.
It might be rational to do so under extreme enough circumstances. For example, if a loved one had to take pills every day to stay alive and had a tendency to accidentally forget them (or to believe new-agers who told them that the pills were just a Big Pharma conspiracy), it would be neither madness nor tyranny to do nearly anything to prevent that from happening.
The question is: to what degree is failing to sign up for cryonics like suicide by negligence?
I'm not finding this. Can you refer me to your trivially easy agency?
I used State Farm, because I've had car insurance with them since I could drive, and renters/owner's insurance since I moved out on my own. I had discounts both for multi-line and loyalty.
Yes, there is some interaction with a person involved. And you have to sit through some amount of sales-pitching. But ultimately it boils down to answering a few questions (2-3 minutes), signing a few papers (1-2 minutes), sitting through some process & pitching (30-40 minutes), and then having someone come to your house a few days later to take some blood and measurements (10-15 minutes). Everything else was done via mail/email/fax.
Heck, my agent had to do much more work than I did, previous to this she didn't know that you can designate someone other than yourself as the owner of the policy, required some training.
I tried a State Farm guy, and he was nice enough, but he wanted a saliva sample (not blood) and could not tell me what it was for. He gave me an explicitly partial list but couldn't complete it for me. That was spooky. I don't want to do that.
Huh. That is weird. I don't blame you.
Come to think of it, I didn't even bother asking what the blood sample was for. But I tend to be exceptionally un-private. I don't expect privacy to be a part of life among beings who regularly share their source code.
It's not a matter of privacy. I can't think of much they'd put on the list that I wouldn't be willing to let them have. (The agent acted like I could only possibly be worried that they were going to do genetic testing, but I'd let them do that as long as they, you know, told me, and gave me a copy of the results.) It was just really not okay with me that they wanted it for undisclosed purposes. Lack of privacy and secrets shouldn't be unilateral.
Disagree. What's this trivially easy part? You can't buy it like you can buy mutual fund shares, where you just go online, transfer the money, and have at it. They make it so you have to talk to an actual human insurance agent, just to get quotes. (I understand you'll have to get a medical exam, but still...)
Of course, in fairness, I'm trying to combine it with "infinite banking" by getting a whole life policy, which has tax advantages. (I would think whole life would make more sense than term anyway, since you don't want to limit the policy to a specific term, risking that you'll die afterward and no be able to afford the preservation, when the take-off hasn't happened.)
Nope. Whole life is a colossal waste of money. If you buy term and invest the difference in the premiums (what you would be paying the insurance company if you bought whole life) you'll end up way ahead.
Yes, I'm intimately familiar with the argument. And while I'm not committed to whole life, this particular point is extremely unpersuasive to me.
For one thing, the extra cost for whole is mostly retained by you, nearly as if you had never spent it, which make it questionable how much of that extra cost is really a cost.
That money goes into an account which you can withdraw from, or borrow from on much more favorable terms than any commercial loan. It also earns dividends and guaranteed interest tax-free.
If you "buy term and invest the difference", you either have to pay significant taxes on any gains (or even, in some cases, the principle) or lock it up the money until you're ~60. The optimistic "long term" returns of the stock market have shown to be a bit too optimistic, and given the volatility, you are being undercompensated. (Mutual whole life plans typically earned over 6% in '08, when stocks tanked.) You are also unlikely to earn the 12%/year they always pitch for mutual funds -- and especially not after taxes.
Furthermore, if the tax advantages of IRAs are reneged on (which given developed countries' fiscal situations, is looking more likely every day), they'll most likely be hit before life insurance policies.
So yes, I'm aware of the argument, but there's a lot about the calculation that people miss.
It's really hard to understand insurance products with the information available on the internet, and you are right that it is extremely unfriendly to online research. When I investigated whole life vs. term a few years ago, I came to the conclusions that there are a lot of problems with whole life and I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole.
Actually, there is something far weirder and insidious going on. By "extra cost," I assume you are referring to the extra premium that goes into the insurance company's cash value investment account, beyond the amount of premium that goes towards your death benefit (aka "face amount," aka "what the insurance company pays to your beneficiary if you die while the policy is in force). Wait, what? Didn't I mean your cash value account, and my words the "insurance company's cash value account" were a slip of the tongue? Read on...
Let's take a look at the FAQ of the NY Dept. of Insurance which explains the difference between the face amount of your policy (aka "death benefit" aka "what the insurance company pays to your beneficiary if you die while the policy is in force):
So, you have a $1 million face amount insurance policy. The premiums are set so that by age 100, "your" cash value investment account will have a value of $1 million. If you die right before turning 100, how much money will your beneficiary get?
If you guessed $1 million face amount + $1 million cash value account = $2 million, you guessed wrong. See the last quoted sentence: "If you die your beneficiaries will receive the face amount." Your beneficiary gets the $1 million face amount, but the insurance company keeps the $1 million investment account to offset their loss (which would instead go to your beneficiary if you had done "buy term and invest the difference).
This is because the cash value account is not your money anymore. The account belongs to the insurance company; I've read whole life policies and seen this stated in the fine print that people don't read. Now, you may think you can access this account, right? Yes and no. It's true that the money in it grows tax-free, but getting your money from the account isn't as simple as you might think.
You can't just take money out of a cash value account. If you want to take money out of the cash value account without surrendering the entire policy, it is not usually a withdrawal, it's a loan.The reason it's called a "loan" is because, as we've established, the account is not really yours, it's the insurance company's! According to the FAQ, here is what happens when you try to take a loan on a cash value account (emphasis mine):
As it says, you can get the money out of the cash value account by surrendering your policy... but then you have no life insurance anymore (whereas with buy term and invest the difference, taking money out of an investment account may incur taxes if they are not already paid, but you don't have to cancel your life insurance to do so). See the penultimate sentence of the first quote: "If you surrender your policy you will receive the cash value not the face amount." Your coverage (the "face amount") is gone if you surrender your policy to get the cash values. Here is what happens when you surrender the policy:
With "buy term and invest the difference," if you take money out of your investment account, it doesn't decrease the death benefit of your policy. Another article claims that you can do a partial withdrawal from the cash value account without it being a loan, but it can decrease the death benefit:
The cash value surrender values will be spelled out in a schedule in a whole life contract. And for the first 3-5 years, they can be dismal (and would be less than if you had invested the difference and withdrew it paying taxes). From the insure.com article (emphasis mine):
That whole article is a good read. Notice that even though a cash value account can match a "buy term and invest the difference" strategy that accumulates 4.6% a year, your beneficiary does not get the cash value investment if you die:
So if you die with the cash value account, your beneficiary gets $100,000, but if you die with the term strategy, your beneficiary gets $100,000 + the value of the investment account. If you die in year 20, that is $28,000 (don't know if those dollars are taxed yet or not, but the difference is still stark), making the total gain by your beneficiary $128,000, instead of $100,000 with whole life.
So, what's the deal with cash value accounts and why are they so wacky? To understand, realize that the cash value account is not an investment vehicle for you; it is a protection for the insurance company. From this article:
Cash value accounts are for mitigating the risk of insurance companies, so they can make money even though they are insuring you your "whole life" (well, up to age 95-100). In contrast, the way term life insurance policies make money is that a certain percentage of policies expire and are not renewed before the insured dies, so the insurance company keeps those premiums... but this is how insurance in general works, and it's far more straight forward. You can always get a guaranteed renewable term policy, and then actually renew it.
It's very dangerous to bundle life insurance and investments in whole life policies.
I believe "buy term and invest the difference" is the slogan of the Amway-like Multi Level Marketer (MLM, legal pyramid scheme) Primerica.
That's how I first encountered it, too. But it seems to be mainstream and widely accepted advice that is confirmed independently.
Wow, thanks for all that! Upvoted. I'm biased in favor of DIY, but those are really good points and I didn't realize some of that.
Hey, glad to help, and sorry if I came off as impatient (more than I usually do, anyway). And I'm in favor of DIY too, which is how I do my mutual fund/IRA investing, and why I complained about how online-unfriendly life insurance is. But the idea behind "infinite banking" (basically, using a mutual whole life insurance plan, which have been around for hundreds of years and endured very hard times robustly, as a savings account) is very much DIY, once you get it set up.
Again, take it with a grain of salt because I'm still researching this...
It occurs to me: are there legal issues with people contesting wills? I think that a life insurance policy with the cryonics provider listed as the beneficiary would be more difficult to fight.