Vladimir_M comments on Abnormal Cryonics - Less Wrong
You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.
You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.
Comments (365)
Nope. Whole life is a colossal waste of money. If you buy term and invest the difference in the premiums (what you would be paying the insurance company if you bought whole life) you'll end up way ahead.
Yes, I'm intimately familiar with the argument. And while I'm not committed to whole life, this particular point is extremely unpersuasive to me.
For one thing, the extra cost for whole is mostly retained by you, nearly as if you had never spent it, which make it questionable how much of that extra cost is really a cost.
That money goes into an account which you can withdraw from, or borrow from on much more favorable terms than any commercial loan. It also earns dividends and guaranteed interest tax-free.
If you "buy term and invest the difference", you either have to pay significant taxes on any gains (or even, in some cases, the principle) or lock it up the money until you're ~60. The optimistic "long term" returns of the stock market have shown to be a bit too optimistic, and given the volatility, you are being undercompensated. (Mutual whole life plans typically earned over 6% in '08, when stocks tanked.) You are also unlikely to earn the 12%/year they always pitch for mutual funds -- and especially not after taxes.
Furthermore, if the tax advantages of IRAs are reneged on (which given developed countries' fiscal situations, is looking more likely every day), they'll most likely be hit before life insurance policies.
So yes, I'm aware of the argument, but there's a lot about the calculation that people miss.
It's really hard to understand insurance products with the information available on the internet, and you are right that it is extremely unfriendly to online research. When I investigated whole life vs. term a few years ago, I came to the conclusions that there are a lot of problems with whole life and I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole.
Actually, there is something far weirder and insidious going on. By "extra cost," I assume you are referring to the extra premium that goes into the insurance company's cash value investment account, beyond the amount of premium that goes towards your death benefit (aka "face amount," aka "what the insurance company pays to your beneficiary if you die while the policy is in force). Wait, what? Didn't I mean your cash value account, and my words the "insurance company's cash value account" were a slip of the tongue? Read on...
Let's take a look at the FAQ of the NY Dept. of Insurance which explains the difference between the face amount of your policy (aka "death benefit" aka "what the insurance company pays to your beneficiary if you die while the policy is in force):
So, you have a $1 million face amount insurance policy. The premiums are set so that by age 100, "your" cash value investment account will have a value of $1 million. If you die right before turning 100, how much money will your beneficiary get?
If you guessed $1 million face amount + $1 million cash value account = $2 million, you guessed wrong. See the last quoted sentence: "If you die your beneficiaries will receive the face amount." Your beneficiary gets the $1 million face amount, but the insurance company keeps the $1 million investment account to offset their loss (which would instead go to your beneficiary if you had done "buy term and invest the difference).
This is because the cash value account is not your money anymore. The account belongs to the insurance company; I've read whole life policies and seen this stated in the fine print that people don't read. Now, you may think you can access this account, right? Yes and no. It's true that the money in it grows tax-free, but getting your money from the account isn't as simple as you might think.
You can't just take money out of a cash value account. If you want to take money out of the cash value account without surrendering the entire policy, it is not usually a withdrawal, it's a loan.The reason it's called a "loan" is because, as we've established, the account is not really yours, it's the insurance company's! According to the FAQ, here is what happens when you try to take a loan on a cash value account (emphasis mine):
As it says, you can get the money out of the cash value account by surrendering your policy... but then you have no life insurance anymore (whereas with buy term and invest the difference, taking money out of an investment account may incur taxes if they are not already paid, but you don't have to cancel your life insurance to do so). See the penultimate sentence of the first quote: "If you surrender your policy you will receive the cash value not the face amount." Your coverage (the "face amount") is gone if you surrender your policy to get the cash values. Here is what happens when you surrender the policy:
With "buy term and invest the difference," if you take money out of your investment account, it doesn't decrease the death benefit of your policy. Another article claims that you can do a partial withdrawal from the cash value account without it being a loan, but it can decrease the death benefit:
The cash value surrender values will be spelled out in a schedule in a whole life contract. And for the first 3-5 years, they can be dismal (and would be less than if you had invested the difference and withdrew it paying taxes). From the insure.com article (emphasis mine):
That whole article is a good read. Notice that even though a cash value account can match a "buy term and invest the difference" strategy that accumulates 4.6% a year, your beneficiary does not get the cash value investment if you die:
So if you die with the cash value account, your beneficiary gets $100,000, but if you die with the term strategy, your beneficiary gets $100,000 + the value of the investment account. If you die in year 20, that is $28,000 (don't know if those dollars are taxed yet or not, but the difference is still stark), making the total gain by your beneficiary $128,000, instead of $100,000 with whole life.
So, what's the deal with cash value accounts and why are they so wacky? To understand, realize that the cash value account is not an investment vehicle for you; it is a protection for the insurance company. From this article:
Cash value accounts are for mitigating the risk of insurance companies, so they can make money even though they are insuring you your "whole life" (well, up to age 95-100). In contrast, the way term life insurance policies make money is that a certain percentage of policies expire and are not renewed before the insured dies, so the insurance company keeps those premiums... but this is how insurance in general works, and it's far more straight forward. You can always get a guaranteed renewable term policy, and then actually renew it.
It's very dangerous to bundle life insurance and investments in whole life policies.
I believe "buy term and invest the difference" is the slogan of the Amway-like Multi Level Marketer (MLM, legal pyramid scheme) Primerica.
That's how I first encountered it, too. But it seems to be mainstream and widely accepted advice that is confirmed independently.
Wow, thanks for all that! Upvoted. I'm biased in favor of DIY, but those are really good points and I didn't realize some of that.
Hey, glad to help, and sorry if I came off as impatient (more than I usually do, anyway). And I'm in favor of DIY too, which is how I do my mutual fund/IRA investing, and why I complained about how online-unfriendly life insurance is. But the idea behind "infinite banking" (basically, using a mutual whole life insurance plan, which have been around for hundreds of years and endured very hard times robustly, as a savings account) is very much DIY, once you get it set up.
Again, take it with a grain of salt because I'm still researching this...
It occurs to me: are there legal issues with people contesting wills? I think that a life insurance policy with the cryonics provider listed as the beneficiary would be more difficult to fight.