Dagon comments on Open Thread June 2010, Part 3 - Less Wrong

6 Post author: Kevin 14 June 2010 06:14AM

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Comment author: Dagon 17 June 2010 07:29:55PM 3 points [-]

Calling them "dark arts" is itself a tactic for framing that only affects the less-rational parts of our judgement.

A purely rational agent will (the word "should" isn't necessary here) of course use rhetoric, outright lies, and other manipulations to get irrational agents to behave in ways that further it's goals.

The question gets difficult when there are no rational agents involved. Humans, for instance, even those who want to be rational most of the time, are very bad at judging when they're wrong. For these irrational agents, it is good general advice not to lie or mislead anyone, at least if you have any significant uncertainty on the relative correctness of your positions on the given topic.

Put another way, persistent disagreement indicates mutual contempt for each others' rationality. If the disagreement is resolvable, you don't need the dark arts. If you're considering the dark arts, it's purely out of contempt.

Comment author: torekp 17 June 2010 11:45:20PM 0 points [-]

If the disagreement is resolvable, you don't need the dark arts. If you're considering the dark arts, it's purely out of contempt.

If both parties are imperfectly rational, limited use of dark arts can speed things up. The question shouldn't be whether it's possible to present dry facts and logic with no spin, but whether it's efficient. There are certain biases that tend to prevent ideas from even being considered. Using other biases and heuristics to counteract those biases - just to get more alternative explanations to be seriously considered - won't impair or bypass the rationality of the listener.