Apprentice comments on Rationality quotes: October 2010 - Less Wrong

4 Post author: Morendil 05 October 2010 11:38AM

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Comment author: Apprentice 06 October 2010 10:13:16AM 23 points [-]

We live in a world where it has become "politically correct" to avoid absolutes. Many want all religions to be given the same honor, and all gods regarded as equally true and equally fictitious. But take these same people, who want fuzzy, all-inclusive thinking in spiritual matters, and put them on an airplane. You will find they insist on a very dogmatic, intolerant pilot who will stay on the "straight and narrow" glidepath so their life will not come to a violent end short of the runway. They want no fuzzy thinking here!

-- Jack T. Chick

Comment author: simplicio 06 October 2010 06:57:11PM 19 points [-]

I'm continually amused by the abundance of quotes here on LW from sundry wingnuts and theists, some of which are quite good. We've had Jack Chick, Ted Kaczynski, CS Lewis (howdya like that reference class, Lewis), GK Chesterton, and that crazy "Einstein was wrong!" guy.

Maybe being a contrarian in anything whatsoever helps one to break through the platitudes and cached thoughts that ordinary folks seem to bog down in whenever they try to think.

Comment author: NihilCredo 07 October 2010 02:50:43AM *  23 points [-]

There's also a certain fun challenge in looking for jewels among the fecal matter. Rationalist aphorisms by Voltaire or Russell are a regular feature of their writing, and have been quoted in books and articles for decades or centuries, but a pearl of wisdom by a fideist is a tough find and most likely unknown to other LW readers.

Heh. Of all goddamn things to be a hipster about, "rationality quotes" has got to be one hell of a weird choice.

Comment author: Risto_Saarelma 07 October 2010 06:50:36AM 12 points [-]

There's also a certain fun challenge in looking for jewels among the fecal matter.

Do that with the writings of Space Tetrahedron Guy, and then all further Ultimate Space Tetrahedron Documents will have a header text SPACE TETRAHEDRON THEORY IS ENDORSED BY NIHILCREDO.

Comment author: CronoDAS 09 October 2010 06:46:27AM 8 points [-]

In the game "Alpha Protocol", one of the characters is a conspiracy theorist. When he sends you an email about the Federal Reserve (which, according to him, is deliberately engineering a financial crisis so the banks can foreclose on all the houses and get everyone's property), you can respond by quoting Time Cube at him. Which makes him like you more.

Comment author: N_MacDonald 12 October 2010 09:30:14AM 15 points [-]

No, they don't want a dogmatic and intolerant pilot. They want an empirical pilot who trusts his observations and instruments and uses them to make the best judgement regarding how to operate the plane.

On the other hand, a dogmatic, absolutist pilot who is absolutely sure as to the best way to land the airplane under all conditions, ignores his instruments, weather conditions and data from the control towers, and never listens to his flight crew... is a recipe for disaster.

Dogmatic absolutists mistake observation, skepticism, tolerance and empiricism for "fuzzy thinking". They don't realize that their own thinking is the very opposite of scientific thinking- which is based on observation, not fixed dogmas.

Comment author: Apprentice 12 October 2010 10:44:08AM 0 points [-]

I agree! And I think atheist writers, in their worst moments, fall into the same trap.

Comment author: ciphergoth 12 October 2010 11:41:03AM 2 points [-]

Could you give an example?

Comment author: Apprentice 13 October 2010 12:01:00AM *  1 point [-]

Well, the obvious one is the Dawkins quote on the airplane, already treated in ways I agree with by SilasBarta. More generally, I am troubled by atheist attacks on the idea of religious tolerance - Sam Harris says it's "driving us toward the abyss". I mean, really, if you find yourself nodding along to a pro-intolerance rant from Jack Chick then maybe you want to ask yourself some questions.

Even so, I, like Sam Harris and Jack Chick, think that Islam is awful and needs to be resisted.

Edit: Bleh, this comment came out wrong - it's more condescending than helpful. The subject is probably too complicated to deal with here. Basically I think religious tolerance has a fairly good track record and I'd want to be very careful in tinkering with it.

Comment author: ciphergoth 13 October 2010 07:23:18AM 2 points [-]

I agree with your last sentence. But I don't think you've provided an example of any of these writers doing any of the things attributed to "dogmatic absolutists" in N_MacDonald's last paragraph.

Comment author: komponisto 06 October 2010 05:14:58PM 12 points [-]

Compare:

Show me a cultural relativist at thirty thousand feet and I'll show you a hypocrite.

-- Richard Dawkins

Comment author: SilasBarta 06 October 2010 06:36:46PM 1 point [-]

I was about to stand and applause, until I realized...

Let's say I like flying, I like the earth's ecology, I think large-scale flying is killing the earth's ecology, I think my individual flying is not capable of making a difference to the planet's ecology, and I think technologically advanced cultures capable of sustaining commercial human flight only appear superior because they're able to offload the costs of their advancement to the rest of the earth's population [1].

And I'm at 30,000 feet. Am I a hypocrite?

Worse, am I Richard Dawkins, once you clip of the last item on the first paragraph?

[1] Not my actual beliefs. Except one.

Comment author: gjm 07 October 2010 01:46:49AM 18 points [-]

I think you may have misunderstood the point Dawkins was making. It wasn't "if you're in an aeroplane, you aren't entitled to denigrate the society whose achievements made that possible". It was "If you're in an aeroplane, you aren't entitled to claim that all truth is relative, because the fact that the aeroplane stays in the air is dependent on a very particular set of notions about truth, which demonstrably work better than their rivals -- as demonstrated by the fact that our aeroplanes actually fly."

Some context that may be helpful.

Comment author: SilasBarta 07 October 2010 10:21:06PM 7 points [-]

Okay, point taken. But to nitpick, that sounds more like epistemological relativism than cultural -- though he can be forgiven for not expecting his audience to be sensitive to the difference. And the context makes it clear too.

Comment author: Tenek 06 October 2010 04:05:10PM 2 points [-]

Well, Jack doesn't want any thinking at all, so I'm not sure if that's better or worse than fuzziness.

Comment author: wedrifid 06 October 2010 10:27:10AM 1 point [-]

Jack T. Chick

That guy would've gone through hell in high school unless he was really good at sport. :P

Comment author: billswift 07 October 2010 04:59:25AM 2 points [-]

Or really funny. When I was in school I know I thought those little booklets were hilarious.

Comment author: wedrifid 07 October 2010 05:15:46AM *  1 point [-]

Err... booklets? Am I missing something here? Oh, are you talking about airplane flights?

Comment author: arundelo 07 October 2010 05:56:08AM 4 points [-]
Comment author: wedrifid 07 October 2010 06:03:18AM 1 point [-]

Ahh, thanks. I don't think we ever got those here.

Comment author: arundelo 07 October 2010 06:13:26AM *  7 points [-]

Ooh, they are insane. You can read many or all of them online. This one ("Dark Dungeons") is a favorite of mine.

Edit: As mentioned in the Wikipedia article, an earlier version of "Dark Dungeons" (the one that was my introduction to Chick tracts a couple decades ago) listed C. S. Lewis and J. R. R. Tolkien as occult authors whose books should be burned.

Comment author: sketerpot 08 October 2010 02:39:13AM 4 points [-]

No link to chick.com is complete without mentioning these two things:

Dark Dungeons with MST3K-style snarking. This really improves it.

Lisa, which is no longer published or archived on the Chick Publications web site. It has some... interesting ideas about how one should deal with people who rape children. (Everything is okay after five minutes of prayer! No need to report it to the police! Lalala!)

There are some other great Chick tracts, but those are the cream of the crop.

Comment author: gjm 09 October 2010 03:13:20PM 3 points [-]

And also the famous Who will be eaten first? which, for the avoidance of doubt, is not really by Jack Chick.

Comment author: wedrifid 07 October 2010 06:20:11AM 2 points [-]

listed C. S. Lewis and J. R. R. Tolkien as occult authors whose books should be burned.

That's brilliant. :P

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 07 October 2010 03:12:29PM 6 points [-]

I have a notion that the Chick flavor of Christianity is trying to set itself up as the monopoly supplier of fantasy.

Comment author: AngryParsley 07 October 2010 06:44:04AM *  1 point [-]

Jack T. Chick draws religious comics called Chick tracts.

Comment author: NihilCredo 07 October 2010 02:52:19AM 1 point [-]

Wouldn't surprise me if he'd been home-schooled.

Comment author: DilGreen 09 October 2010 10:14:44PM 4 points [-]

from a European perspective, and simultaneously from the perspective of one who sees most state-sanctioned educational approaches as almost comically counter-productive, the idea that appears common in the US, that home schooled = fundamentalist christian parents is confusing. Many home educators in europe are specifically atheist.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 09 October 2010 10:53:03PM 3 points [-]

As far as I can tell, "home schooled = fundamentalist" is American left-wing nonsense.

In fact, while many home-schoolers are fundamentalist, there are a slew of motivations. Some home schoolers think that conventional schooling is a bad environment for learning. Some have children with special needs. Some live in isolated areas. Some are religious, but not pathologically so.

Comment author: NihilCredo 10 October 2010 12:02:31PM *  0 points [-]

Depends on which parts of Europe, I guess. I am told that homeschooling is relatively common in the British Isles, but in the countries I am familiar with (Italy, Sweden, to a lesser degree Germany and Belgium) it ranges from unheard-of to extremely unusual.