MatthewB comments on Ben Goertzel: The Singularity Institute's Scary Idea (and Why I Don't Buy It) - Less Wrong

32 Post author: ciphergoth 30 October 2010 09:31AM

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Comment author: MatthewB 31 October 2010 05:13:16AM 2 points [-]

At the Singularity Summit's "Meet and Greet", I spoke with both Ben Geortzel and Eliezer Yudowski (among others) about this specific problem.

I am FAR more in line with Ben's position than with Eliezer's (probably because both Ben and I are either Working or Studying directly on the "how to do" aspect of AI, rather than just concocting philosophical conundrums for AI, such as the "Paperclip Maximizer" scenario of Eliezer's, which I find highly dubious).

AI isn't going to spring fully formed out of some box of parts. It may be an emergent property of something, but if we worry about all of the possible places from which it could emerge, then we might as well worry about things like ghosts and goblins that we cannot see (and haven't seen) popping up suddenly as a threat.

At Bard College on the Weekend of October the 22nd, I attended a Conference where this topic was discussed a bit. I spoke to James Hughes, head of the IEET (Institute for the Ethics of Emerging Technologies) about this problem as well. He believes that the SIAI tends to be overly dramatic about Hard Takeoff scenarios at the expense of more important ethical problems... And, he and I also discussed the specific problems of "The Scary Idea" that tend to ignore the gradual progress in understanding human values and cognition, and how these are being incorporated into AI as we move toward the creation of a Constructed Intelligence (CI as opposed to AI) that is equivalent to human intelligence.

Also, WRT this comment:

For another example, you can't train tigers to care about their handlers. No matter how much time you spend with them and care for them, they sometimes bite off arms just because they are hungry. I understand most big cats are like this.

You CAN train (Training is not the right word for it) tigers, and other big cats to care about their handlers. It requires a type of training and teaching that goes on from birth, but there are plenty of Big Cats who don't attack their owners or handlers simply because they are hungry, or some other similar reason. They might accidentally injure a handler due to the fact that they do not have the capacity to understand the fragility of a human being, but this is a lack of cognitive capacity, and it is not a case of a higher intelligence accidentally damaging something fragile... A more intelligent mind would be capable of understanding things like physical frailty and taking steps to avoid damaging a more fragile body... But, the point still stands... Big cats can and do form deep emotional bonds with humans, and will even go as far as to try to protect and defend those humans (which, can sometimes lead to injury of the human in its own right).

And, I know this from having worked with a few big cats, and having a sister who is a senior zookeeper at the Houston Zoo (and head curator of the SW US Zoo's African Expedition) who works with big cats ALL the time.

Back to the point about AI.

It is going to be next to impossible to solve the problem of "Friendly AI" without first creating AI systems that have social cognitive capacities. Just sitting around "Thinking" about it isn't likely to be very helpful in resolving the problem.

That would be what Bertrand Russell calls "Gorging upon the Stew of every conceivable idea."

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 31 October 2010 03:28:49PM 5 points [-]

He believes that the SIAI tends to be overly dramatic about Hard Takeoff scenarios at the expense of more important ethical problems...

What are the more important ethical problems?

Comment author: MatthewB 02 November 2010 05:26:23AM -1 points [-]

Well... That is hard to communicate now, as I will need to extricate the problems from the specifics that were communicated to me (in confidence)...

Let's see...

1) That there is a dangerous political movement in the USA that seems to be preferring revealed knowledge to scientific understanding and investigation. 2) Poverty 3) Education 4) Hunger (I myself suffer from this problem - I am disabled, on a fixed income, and while I am in school again and doing quite well I still have to make choices sometimes between necessities... And, I am quite well off compared to some I know) 5) The lack of a political dialog and the preference for ideological certitude over pragmatic solutions and realistic uncertainty. 6) The fact that there exist a great amount of crime among the white collar crowd that goes both unchecked, and unpunished when it is exposed (Maddoff was a fluke in that regard). 7) The various "Wars" that we declare on things (Drugs, Terrorism, etc.) "War" is a poor paradigm to use, and it leads to more damage than it corrects (especially in the two instances I cited) 8) The real "Wars" that are happening right now (and not just those waged by the USA and allies)

Some of these were explicitly discussed.

Some will eventually be resolved, but that doesn't mean that they should be ignored until that time. That would be akin to seeing a man dying of starvation, while one has the capacity to feed him, yet thinking "Oh, he'll get some food eventually."

And, some may just be perennial problems with which we will have to deal with for some time to come.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 02 November 2010 09:25:54AM 1 point [-]

I misread you as saying that important ethical problems about FAI were being ignored, but yes, the idea that FAI is the most important thing in the world leaves quite a bit out, and not just great evils. There's a lot of maintenance to be done along the way to FAI.

Madoff's fraud was initiated by a single human being, or possibly Madoff and his wife. It was comprehensible without adding a lot of what used to be specialist knowledge. It's a much more manageable sort of crime than major institutions becoming destructively corrupt.

Comment author: MatthewB 07 November 2010 04:51:04PM 0 points [-]

I think major infrastructure rebuilding is probably closer to the case than "maintenance"