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shokwave comments on A sense of logic - Less Wrong
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The problem is that it's wrong. All men are not created / did not come into existence equal. Intelligence, genetic risk factors for disease, appearance, etc are all examples of inequalities in the creation or existence of man. It is clear from the text that 'equal' means more than 'equally endowed with unalienable rights'. There are interpretations that are more correct, sure, but these interpretations aren't the natural interpretation of that piece of text, and it's perfectly reasonable to kinesthetically react to that natural interpretation.
As it's a political document, and not a medical text that it should discuss genetics, I think it's supposed to mean "equal in deserved political importance" -- thus differentiating itself from the monarchies that make some people be born in places of greater political status than others.
But then should it not say "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created politically equal ..."?
I don't know, rhetorical flare? He was trying to rally people around a cause not precisely define a PhD thesis. You have to be densely literal-minded to not realize Jefferson was talking about political and moral equality-- not any other kind of equality.
But they weren't. People had to fight damn hard to gain political equality, such as it is! How about "I say people deserve political equality!"? :P
I think the right way to interpret most 'declarations' is as illocutionary acts. Jefferson is basically saying "If you try to deny us political equality, these enumerated rights and the freedom to start our own nation we're going to shoot you with these here muskets."
Or... "Look at me! Look at me! I'm saying catchy slogans that elicit positive political sentiment. Let me be the boss! Me!"
To be fair, it's not an entirely empty political slogan. He's offering to set up a system where he'll have a chance at being in charge, but there will be some limits on how much in charge he will be.
What about access to resource / opportunity. Also family circumstance / environment / status. All men are not born / created equal.
You're basically saying that kings and aristocrats exist. Everybody knew that (I don't think anyone doubted the physical existence of George III), so it obviously can't have been what the Declaration of Independence meant. Why are we even discussing this?
What the Declaration of Independence seems to mean (to me atleast) is that these dynasties of kings and aristocrats don't exist deservedly or "naturally".
I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear. The topic asked for examples of bad logic. The use of the idea "all men are created equal" by people absolving themselves any responsibility for the destitute and failures in societies today is the use of bad logic I was trying to refer too.
This particular idea itself (not the entire declaration of independence), however, is poorly phased and open to ridicule because of its obvious falseness. Political ideas are routinely used and interpreted in ways that demonstate poor or bad lagic. All I was trying to point out was the pained feeling I get when I here someone using and idea like this one to argue an inconsistent and ridiculous position.
I have not been posting long and am beginning to learn very quickly that I need to make my ideas as clear as absolutely possible. (as I would argue the authors of this idea probably should have)
I don't think people are generally using the phrase to mean that for the very reasons that it is so obviously and trivially false if used in that way. The phrase is part of a very famous historical document, and I think the most natural reading is in that original context.
The most natural reading of "all men are created equal" is that it predicates the quality of 'equal' on all men: formally, for all men, 'man' implies 'created equal'. That's what the sentence actually means. Keep in mind that this sentence was brought up as a case of instinctual reaction to bad logic; you may have managed to replace the obvious interpretation with the intended and reasonable one in your instinctual reactions, but for someone without that training it may be entirely accurate for them to respond with "urgh" even if that's not what people actually mean.
You make a good point. This isn't an instance of bad logic exactly; it's an instance of something entirely different to logic that also happens to contain nonsense.
It clearly means that plus "equal in class, without any having an inherent right to rule others."
Thank you, my thoughts exactly.