The math here is extremely misleading.

You used the average figures from a dataset of people making an average of about $55,000 a year for the US figure. That is, the people who spend 37% of their income on housing is from people making about half of the amount you hypothesize someone making. Since you can live in the same apartment, eat the same food, and so forth (with some exceptions depending on locale), that gives you another ~$38,000 in post-tax income in the US. You also ignore benefits (and promotion opportunities) and things like expense accounts, which can be substantial.

You are also comparing unlike people: one is an average American citizen, who probably has kids and a high discount rate, the other is an individual free to travel to another country specifically searching for a high disposable income job. The fact that the average American does worse is largely irrelevant, because the hypothetical person you're advising is already not-average.

It may well be a great idea to work abroad for a few years; it does sound fun and that's a lot of disposable income for limited skill. But if you're going to make a point with numbers, at least make a cursory effort to use plausible numbers and compare relevantly similar people, or at least admit that you're failing to do so.

Given that I'm an American currently living (and working) in the Outback, well there's some flaws in your argument.

There is a lot of employment opportunities here (Alice) because LOTS of people leave after a couple years here. They do that for a reason.

There are basically two economic drivers in this area--tourism and The Base (I'm neither a gardener nor a cleaner, I'm a sprinkler head technician). The Base mostly brings in Americans with very high clearances to do gardening and cleaning, and spends a significant amount of money in Alice for related goods and services.

Tourism is largely due to it's proximity to Uluru/Ayers Rock, and, well, being the only sizable "city" for, well, Darwin is about 1500k north of here, and Adelaide 1500k south.

Alice is a town of about 26k residents. Small town. Very small.

EVERYTHING here, except (oddly enough) pecans, is more expensive than I was paying back in St. Louis MO.

Gas is something like 1.30 a liter. A case of Strongbow is ~50 AUD. A 700ml of Makers Mark is about 40 AUD. Some of the costs are hard to map because GST is 10% and included you don't notice it, you just see it's more expensive, so you really have to keep that in mi... (read more)

I honestly think that this is a very good reality check. I don't think that most people should do it, as I think that there are many better options in the US, but I definitely think that anyone who doesn't feel that they have better options than the one Louie is describing, for instance, anyone who thinks that they are trying to make money but doesn't find that they can save $20K in a year, really should do it or ask themselves some serious questions about why they don't.

I don't expect anyone to do this, because I think people including people here have almost no tendency to actually act in ways that are theoretically more rational. I hope that rather than confabulating reasons whey they don't though, people reading this can at least acknowledge the size of the gulf between their actual motivational structure and their story about it.

I'd like to raise a "dark arts" objection here. This article is written with a lot of presuppositions, strawman attacks, appeals to character, and other interpersonal but non-rational attempts to convince social humans.

For example, the article leads with "You're young, smart, and hoping to have a positive impact on the world." While that may be true of the majority of less wrong readers, the article does not discuss why these qualities are relevant. In fact, the article suggests ways to have less impact on the world - working through a service position - than other careers (such as existential risk reduction). This leads me to believe that this opening line is nothing more than a compliment intended to endear the reader.

The following wording reads like a sales pitch and is highly suspect: "And it is possible to find easily obtained, low-stress jobs with flexible hours that allow you to save as much money as someone in the USA making $100,000/yr... if you leave the USA to look for them."

A classic promise - easy money, with a small catch. Can you rewrite this is as a description of the work you personally experienced, rather than an ambiguous promise?

You... (read more)

we'll call the remaining portion of your income - 4.2% - your discretionary income. 4.2% of $100,000 is $4,200.

You optimized spending in the Australia option, but didn't in USA option. Instead, you used typical spending, which is misleading. I wonder how much less one can spend if that is set as a goal, and if you take into account the apparent single/no kids/lives in apartment assumptions of the Australia option.

One other question-- if this opportunity is so good, why did you stop doing it?

I think a large contingent on LW would be more interested in what an optimal employment scenario looks like after graduating with a high-value degree. I know I am.

Upvoted. This is really interesting.

I'd very likely not do this myself, though. I've noticed there are two kinds of attitudes toward jobs (and I've seen rationalists of both stripes). Some people really want their career to be an extension of their interests and identity and perhaps their prestige: "I'm a scientist," "I'm an artist," "I'm a programmer," "I'm a doctor," "I'm a teacher," etc. They wouldn't want to make the same money in less time by a different route, they want to work in that particular field.

Some people, on the other hand, basically see their job as a source of income, which they can use to pursue their interests elsewhere. They're optimizing for money and free time, which means they look at a much wider range of money-making possibilities. (The most extreme example would be The 4-Hour Workweek, in which the money comes from a passive income stream, not a "career" at all.)

Your advice is geared more to people in the second category. I'm in the first. That doesn't mean it's not good advice -- if you want money and free time to pursue an interest, then hospitality jobs in the outback sound like a great idea, given your evidence.

I'm curious, though -- does anyone think that one attitude is better than the other? Or is it just a matter of individual preference? Job-as-income-stream, or career-as-personal-identity?

One thing Americans considering foreign employment may want to understand is that Americans overseas still have to pay US taxes.

Also, there is some misleading accounting here, as others have pointed out. For example, Louie assumes someone making $100,000 will pay 7% of their income ($7000) on utilities alone. Also, I imagine relatively few people pay more than $1900/month for rent. For example, a furnished luxury two-bedroom apartment in Greater Philadelphia (a relatively expensive market) can be had for less than $1900/month.

And of course, America has low-cost areas as well. My sister (she is a single day care worker) recently moved into a 3 bedroom town-home in a nice area of suburban Toledo, Ohio. She pays $600/month. She previously lived in a decent 1 bedroom for $350/month.

As an Australian living in Melbourne, I too would like to point out the job-ease here. I earn ~21 dollars an hour working at KFC. That said, now seriously considering a working holiday in central or western Australia.

Questions:

1) What do you recommend in the scenario where one lands in Australia without a job lined up, and then (for whatever reason) cannot find an acceptable one? (This may be very unlikely, but having backup plans for emotionally salient crises is an important component of committing to major plans for certain types of decision makers.)

2) The website you linked for hospitality jobs is not working. Can you list some more examples of job types besides bartending and receptionist work? (In particular, I would find this possibility more appealing if there were jobs listed that didn't involve spending a lot of time on my lousy feet or using telephones.)

3) Is there any hidden pitfall associated with leaving partway through, either temporarily (home for Christmas) or permanently (don't like it there after and wanna go back)?

4) If you really, really like it there, is there a good way to stay?

5) Regarding subsidized room and board, I strongly value being able to cook for myself, which means I need to have, equip, stock, and find time to use a decent kitchen. Would this value collide with the perks you mention?

There's a chance I may do this. If I do, I'll add the report of my experiences to Louie's.

Doesn't the US tax income American citizens make abroad? And then financially abuse you if the IRS judges that you gave up your citizenship to lower your taxes?

I think there is a widespread emotional aversion to moving abroad, which means there must be great money to be made on arbitrage.

I think a lot of the aversion is fear of inferiority and/or ostracism. These are counter-intuitively misplaced.

The theory is this: You're worried that the people over there have their own way of doing things, they know the lay of the land, and they're competing hard at a game they've been playing together since they were born. Whereas you barely speak the language, don't know the social conventions, and have no connections. What chance could you possibly have of making money or making friends?

In practice, it's the opposite: Against a wildcard like you, they don't stand a chance!

If you're somewhat smart, you'll find that you have cultural superpowers in a foreign country: Your background gives you a different, unusual look on things which makes you interesting and exotic. At home, you'd be nothing special. And since your accent is cute, you'll be forgiven your blunders (at least by strangers and superficial acquaintances).

The same asymmetry applies to your education, your working style, etc. They are suddenly unique and refreshing. That can be parlayed into advantage, if used judiciously.

Playing 100% by the rules only guarantees that your playing field will be too crowded for you to get any breaks.

Where the market is irrationally risk-averse, take risks, young ones!

I'm in my 50s, so I won't be upping and moving to work as a bartender in Alice Springs. But even at 20 a drawback that occurs to me is that I like big cities. I would find living in the sticks worse than putting up with a city commute. There is the internet, but still. How do you find it? What do you, or did you, do with the time?

The EMH applies to financial markets, which revolve around ownership of easily tradeable things. Often those things are bought just so they can be sold later on. A person convinced by your argument would have a difficult time "leveraging up" to arbitrage an inefficient labor market. Though I think the economic consensus might be that labor markets generally are not very efficient, hence the existence of persistent high unemployment (though that may not be an issue in Australia compared to the U.S these days).

As an American currently living in Australia on a Work and Holiday (462) Visa, I have a small but significant correction to make: foreigners on a 462 Visa aren't actually able to file as residents for tax purposes.

Which means that rather than paying 0% tax, I'm paying about 32% tax. (And that's a lot, but it's still better than what I'd be paying if I didn't have an Australian tax file number. If you don't have one, you can end up paying up to 45%.) I have yet to find out if I'll get any of that money back when I leave.

When I first got here, I was hopeful that maybe I did qualify as a resident for tax purposes. After all, it says on the Australian Tax Office's site that you are "generally considered an Australian resident for tax purposes" if "you have been in Australia continuously for six months or more, and for most of the time you have been in the same job, and living in the same place." (Source: http://www.ato.gov.au/individuals/content.aspx?doc=/content/64131.htm). And that's exactly what I planned to do. But maybe what that actually means is that you need to have already lived in Australia for more than 6 months at the time of application. I don't know. B... (read more)

Q: What about Australian culture? Will I like it over there?

A: Australia is a highly educated, robustly secular, extremely developed country. If you have any questions about the desirability of Australia, just ask Less Wrong! A disproportionate number of Less Wrongers are Australian.

However, Australia also has the most restrictive Internet censorship policies in the Western world.

"-7.65% of your income into Social Security good luck getting that back"

The "Social Security will be eliminated before you collect any benefits" line is one of the great myths of USA politics. It's being intentionally propagated by one political party (hint: the one that voted against SS and has been fighting against it ever since.) SS's finances are in fine shape and the program can continue with minimal or no modification for many years to come.

Your link goes to a very brief piece arguing that most people don't think they will get Soc... (read more)

I have a different perspective on these issues, having moved to the US from Israel (fairly recently). Here's why living in Australia would suck for me (Your Utility Function May Vary):

• My family is located abroad, but it's easier for me to visit them and much more likely that they'll visit me if I live in the US. Seeing my family is valuable to me. If seeing your family is valuable to you, and they're in the US, prices are even more varied. If you have siblings (I do), then I will share my experience that seeing one's nephew grow up is a wonderful experie

I've lived in Sydney all my life, and often meet people who are here on a working holiday and are very disappointed. For instance, this weekend I met a guy from Jordan working in a convenience store. He was making $800-1000/week working nightshift[1], and enjoying the novel, liberal culture, but found it difficult to save much.[2]

Now I know what to tell people, which makes me feel a lot better. I'd be curious to know whether you could get a similar deal in other parts of the country, though. Alice Springs is not a greatly pleasant place, from what I unders... (read more)

Great post, thanks. I would be interested in hearing analogous reports from people in other places, like Singapore, Hong Kong, or New Zealand. Peter Thiel apparently thinks New Zealand is the next big thing.

I wish we had more info on how people who aren't US citizens or under 31 can live and work in AU.

Great Article & Info mate, I am a Aussie living in Canada for past 6 years, I am a long haul trucker, When I made the move I was told I would be earning 80,000 CND per year, Okay that meant taking a pay cut for me of 30k per year, I could deal with that as I wanted to Truck Nth America, I have no regrets in my decision,So don't think I am whining:) I have made Canada my home & I have been to every of the lower 48 States more than once, My 1st year here I struggled to earn the 50k I did earn, I was used of more than twice that amount, Also I was hit... (read more)