orthonormal comments on Bayesians vs. Barbarians - Less Wrong

51 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 14 April 2009 11:45PM

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Comment author: orthonormal 23 March 2011 11:28:35PM 7 points [-]

Thinking in terms of "half-lives of danger" is your problem here; you're looking at the reciprocal of the relevant quantity, and you shouldn't try and treat those linearly. Instead, try and maximize your probability of survival.

It's the same trap that people fall into with the question "if you want to average 40 mph on a trip, and you averaged 20 mph for the first half of the route, how fast do you have to go on the second half of the route?"

Comment author: Alicorn 23 March 2011 11:40:08PM *  1 point [-]

"if you want to average 40 mph on a trip, and you averaged 20 mph for the first half of the route, how fast do you have to go on the second half of the route?"

How do you answer this question?

Edit: MBlume kindly explained offsite before the offspring comments were posted. Er, sorry to have wasted more people's time than I needed.

Comment author: [deleted] 25 March 2011 01:39:32AM 3 points [-]

It's still an interesting exercise to try to come up with the most intuitive explanation. One way to do it is to start by specifying a distance. Making the problem more concrete can sometimes get you away from the eye-glazing algebra, though of course then you need to go back and check that your solution generalizes.

A good distance to assign is 40 miles for the whole trip. You've gone 20 mph for the first half of the trip, which means that you traveled for an hour and traveled 20 miles. In order for your average speed to be 40 mph you need to travel the whole 40 miles in one hour. But you've already traveled for an hour! So - it's too late! You've already failed.

Comment author: Alicorn 25 March 2011 01:41:45AM *  3 points [-]

Yes, that's roughly how MBlume explained it (edited for concision and punctuation):

MBlume: I can help you! or could if there was an answer...

Alicorn: Good, I can delete the comment before it gets downvoted again! I half-suspected there was not, and that it depended on the distance of the journey, but wasn't sure

MBlume: that is a silly thing for people to downvote. it doesn't actually, but it is impossible. you have to cover the rest of the distance instantly to average 40mph

Alicorn: Oh, and they won't let your car onto the transporter pad, gotcha

MBlume: nodnod

Alicorn: ...why do you have to cover the distance instantly?

MBlume: (they are jerks.) because... let's pretend the distance is 40 miles. in order to average 40 mph

Alicorn: you need to get there in an hour

MBlume: you would have to cover the whole distance in an hour, nodnod

Alicorn: ahhhh, now I see.

MBlume: but you drive half of that (20 miles) at 20 mph... nodnod

Alicorn: you took an hour to go 20 miles at - yes. that.

MBlume: ^_^

Comment author: [deleted] 25 March 2011 02:02:35AM *  2 points [-]

If that's an actual chat record, I'm getting old for this world. ... okay, on a third read-through, I'm starting to comprehend the rhythm and lingo.

Comment author: Alicorn 25 March 2011 02:07:40AM 0 points [-]

The original had more line breaks and less punctuation, but it's real - what do you mean?

Comment author: [deleted] 25 March 2011 02:10:02AM 2 points [-]

It felt like I was following, say for analogy, a discussion among filipinos who were switching back and forth between English and Tagalog. But re-reading it twice I started to get the flow and terms. E.g. "nodnod" was opaque initially.

Comment author: Nisan 26 March 2011 04:41:25PM 2 points [-]

Nowadays young people are all like

There was me, that is Alex, and my three droogs, that is Pete, Georgie, and Dim, and we sat in the Korova Milkbar trying to make up our rassoodocks what to do with the evening. The Korova milkbar sold milk-plus, milk plus vellocet or synthemesc or drencrom, which is what we were drinking. This would sharpen you up and make you ready for a bit of the old ultra-violence.

Comment author: [deleted] 26 March 2011 04:53:02PM *  0 points [-]

Yes, that movie is a nice example of science fiction which deliberately makes up new words (so I presume) to give the viewer that fish out of water "it's the future" feeling. Star Trek does something like that which I think is called technobabble, which is also deliberately incomprehensible with a sciency twist. I get much the same feeling when I watch certain popular shows from English- but not American-speaking places, where people combine unknown references, unknown words, and pronunciation which I have to struggle to unravel.

Happily, in all cases the simple act of patiently familiarizing myself by repeated viewing works well to bring me up to speed, though I personally have never gone as far as learning Klingon.

Comment author: Vaniver 26 March 2011 06:13:52PM 0 points [-]

Yes, that movie is a nice example of science fiction which deliberately makes up new words (so I presume) to give the viewer that fish out of water "it's the future" feeling.

If I remember correctly, it's a blend of English, Russian, and Latin.

Comment author: rabidchicken 30 March 2011 02:55:44AM *  1 point [-]

I guess it is rather bizarre. But most of the unusual conventions on IRC and other chat services are in order to make it more like a face to face conversation. They generally either allow you to narrate yourself from a third person perspective, or speed up common interactions that take much longer to type than they do in real life.

Although "nodnod" seems unusually nonsensical, since it takes longer to type than "yes". I cannot say I have seen that used before.

Comment author: FAWS 25 March 2011 02:14:48AM 1 point [-]

I think it's actually pretty close to normal English for a chat log.

Comment author: [deleted] 25 March 2011 02:17:02AM 1 point [-]

I don't doubt it. That's why I said that I felt that I was getting old for the world. The unusual, out of place thing is me. I'm assuming that the chat log is typical.

Comment author: JGWeissman 23 March 2011 11:56:23PM 2 points [-]

Suppose the total trip is a distance d.

d = (average speed) (time)
time = d / (average speed)

So if your average speed is 40 (mph), your total time is d/40.

You have already travelled half the distance at speed 20 (mph), so that took time (d/2)/20 = d/40. Your time left to complete the trip is your total time minus the time spent so far: d/40 - d/40 = 0. In this time you have to travel the remaining distance d/2, so you have travel at a speed (d/2)/0 = infinity, which means it is impossible to actually do.

Comment author: rhollerith_dot_com 23 March 2011 11:57:41PM 0 points [-]

Let t1 be the time taken to drive the first half of the route.

Let t2 be the time taken to drive the second half.

Let d1 be the distance traveled in the first half.

Let d2 be the distance traveled in the second half.

Let x be what we want to know (namely, the average speed during the second half of the route).

Then the following relations hold:

40 * (t1 + t2) = d1 * d2.

20 * t1 = d1.

x * t2 = d2.

d1 = d2.

Use algebra to solve for x.

To average 40 mph requires completing the trip in a certain amount of time, and even without doing any algebra, I notice that you will have used all of the available time just completing the first half of the trip, so you're speed would have to be infinitely fast during the second half.

I am pretty confident in that conclusion, but a little algebra will increase my confidence, so let us calculate as follows: the time you have to do the trip = t1 + t2 = d1 / 40 + d2 / 40, which (since d1 = d2) equals d1 / 20, but (by equation 2) d1 / 20 equals t1, so t2 must be zero.

Comment author: FAWS 25 March 2011 12:30:25AM *  4 points [-]

I expect a high probability of this explanation being completely useless to someone who professes being bad at math. Their eyes are likely to glaze over before the half way point and the second half isn't infinitely accessible either.

Comment author: Alicorn 25 March 2011 01:30:23AM 0 points [-]

I already had the problem explained to me before I saw the grandparent, but I think you're right - I might have been able to puzzle it out, but it'd have been work.

Comment deleted 26 March 2011 03:34:45PM *  [-]
Comment author: Alicorn 26 March 2011 03:47:52PM *  2 points [-]

Well, in the department of actual running, I have some kind of mysterious lung issue that means I need to gasp for air a lot even when I'm sitting still and have been for hours and it only gets worse if I try to do exercise more strenuous than a leisurely walk. (Armchair diagnoses appreciated, incidentally - so far I've stumped multiple doctors and new Google keywords are good.)

Here is something like the thought process that goes through my head when I encounter a problem of this approximate type:

I know what all those words mean. I could come up with a toy scenario and see what's interesting about this problem, that someone bothered to bring it up.

It might be the sort of question where coming up with one toy scenario doesn't answer it because for some reason it doesn't generalize. Like it could have to do with the distance. I don't want to come up with five different distances and work it out for all of them. I'd probably make an arithmetic mistake anyway. I can barely compose a mathematically accurate D&D character, and I'm way more motivated there than here. I'm not interested enough in this to do it in a calculator and then re-read the ticker tape. My eyes are swimming just thinking about it.

And because I'm not good at this, I would be reasonably likely to get it wrong, and then, no matter how much time I'd put into it myself, I would need to ask someone. I could get help if I asked. I am cute and friendly and there are helpful people around. I could get help even if I didn't work on it myself. That would be faster, and then I'd know the answer, and I have to ask anyway, so why not just ask? Why not save the work, and not risk wasting a lot of time on getting a wrong answer and having to stare at all those numbers?

Comment author: Marius 27 March 2011 05:51:39PM 2 points [-]

Record yourself (audio and video) during one of your attacks and I'll have a much better idea. Right now, it's extremely hard to tell from your description. Obviously, actually listening to you with a stethoscope and being able to perform a few tests would help me even more, of course.

Comment author: Alicorn 27 March 2011 06:30:52PM 0 points [-]

By "attack" do you mean "one of the hundreds of occasions throughout an average day where I attempt to take an especially deep breath to satisfy my customary air hunger" or do you mean "run around until you collapse, gasping, and record that"?

Comment author: Marius 27 March 2011 06:36:50PM 0 points [-]

The latter. But wait, you only have attacks when you run?

Comment author: RobinZ 26 March 2011 04:07:55PM 1 point [-]

I've found in the past that I remember the right answer better if I can guess it first and then get confirmation. It doesn't help when I guess wrong, but when I guess right it's a win.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 26 March 2011 04:02:14PM 1 point [-]

Has the lung issue been a problem for your whole life? Is it better at some times and worse at others?

I don't have a theory, but this seems like a reasonable starting point.

Comment author: Alicorn 26 March 2011 04:12:53PM 0 points [-]

The lung thing has gone on for several years; I have a memory that doesn't make sense without it that has to have taken place in fall 2006. I don't remember exactly when it started but I have not always had it. (I suspect it began sometime after I started taking iron to treat my anemia, since no one ever connected the two; that would've been some months after I turned 17, so, late 2005-early 2006).

It does vary day to day and hour to hour, plus with what I'm doing (walking excessively briskly, or jumping around, or otherwise being active, makes it act up - it was outright crippling on one occasion last summer when I tried to bike a few blocks; I had to pull over and sit on the sidewalk for a while and then verrrrry carefully bike back, walking the thing up hills and only riding on levels and downhill.) There is an overall trend of worsening from year to year.

Comment author: [deleted] 27 March 2011 03:59:31PM 1 point [-]

Asthma/reactive airway disease seems like the obvious thing here, so has that been ruled out? Did they have you blow into a thing to measure whether you were breathing a normal volume of air (spirometry)?

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 26 March 2011 05:32:37PM 1 point [-]

What hypotheses did the doctors check?

Is it ok if I post this thread to my livejournal? A fair number of my readers are smart people with health problems, and they may either have heard of something like what you've got or may have information about the reliability of common tests for possible causes.

Comment author: Perplexed 27 March 2011 06:02:58PM 0 points [-]

I suspect it began sometime after I started taking iron to treat my anemia, since no one ever connected the two; ...

Who is 'no one' and which two did they fail to connect? Why do you say 'since'?

I'm not a doctor. But it sure sounds to me that your blood is just not carrying enough oxygen to support vigorous exercise. Which is by definition 'anemia'. Which comes in various forms, the most common of which can be treated by iron supplements, but the most serious of which have other causes and treatments. Just from what I read on the web, my guess would be you have 'pernicious anemia'.

I would strongly advise going to a doctor again, and asking for blood tests. Be sure the doctor is informed about any ways in which your diet is unusual. Good luck.

Comment author: cousin_it 26 March 2011 03:59:40PM *  1 point [-]

Sorry for deleting my comment. I've been doing this a lot lately - I write something and then notice that it's stupid for one reason or another. (In this case it was the armchair diagnosing/other-optimizing.) Didn't think you'd react so fast.

Comment author: Alicorn 26 March 2011 04:00:56PM 1 point [-]

It's okay. (I hope my thought process is interesting anyway.)

Comment author: cousin_it 26 March 2011 04:08:24PM *  2 points [-]

Well your last paragraph was interesting in a way. In fact I don't understand it. The point of a puzzle is to stretch and work out your brain, not arrive at an answer asap. If you have a bus full of hostages whose fate depends on an arithmetical problem, it's indeed wiser to ask someone else. But such situations don't occur often. In fact I sometimes explicitly ask other people to avoid giving me any hints because I want to solve the puzzle myself. Asking for help is analogous to taking the bus instead of your morning run :-)

But well, I guess if you don't enjoy puzzles already, then saying things like "c'mon jump in, the water's fine" isn't going to influence you much. Some things you really have to try before you can see the fun contained within. I think most things I enjoy in life fall in this category...

Comment author: Davorak 04 May 2011 12:03:03AM 0 points [-]

Mayo clinic, from my very limit experience, can be quite thorough. You will at least have many eyes on the problem and the more the better.

They can offer finical asstance as well if they are not in network for your insurance. http://www.mayohealthsystem.org/mhs/live/locations/LM/pdf/FinancialAssistanceBrochure.pdf

Comment author: JoshuaZ 26 March 2011 06:00:11PM 0 points [-]

I'd probably make an arithmetic mistake anyway. I can barely compose a mathematically accurate D&D character, and I'm way more motivated there than here.

This isn't a very good example. Making D&D characters that fit the rules can be surprisingly tricky. There' s just a lot of data to keep track of and lots of little corner case rules.

Comment author: wedrifid 26 March 2011 06:06:29PM *  0 points [-]

theonlysheet.com

A mostly solved problem. Although this doesn't quite handle all possible combinations of those add on books. Like the one which can be gamed to create what amounts to adamantium nano-bots (which are actually fairly reasonable if you think about what a rational individual would do given the physics but are nevertheless not quite intended).

Manual arithmetic and rules knowledge would also be required to work out exactly how much damage can be done when using a locate spell to utterly obliterate nearly everything on an entire continent.

Comment author: rhollerith_dot_com 25 March 2011 01:22:43AM 0 points [-]

I have to agree that a shorter explanation with just words in it would be bettter for someone with significant aversive math conditioning.

Comment author: Vaniver 26 March 2011 06:16:01PM 2 points [-]

40 * (t1 + t2) = d1 * d2.

It also doesn't help the explanation when you make an error. That should be d1 + d2.

Comment author: rhollerith_dot_com 26 March 2011 06:45:39PM 0 points [-]

Acknowledged.